Do we need God for Morality? [Spirituality & Religion]

@Speedyman I’ve been asking the question of @GodSpeed63 and he’s afraid to answer. But I’ll ask you.
Do you read and follow every word of the bible?

Yes I read every word in the Bible. I try and read it about once a year following a plan. Of course I don’t follow every word in the Bible as although the recording of the Bible I believe is inspired not all parts of the Bible are equally relevant. So there are parts of the old Testament which have now passed away having been fulfilled in Christ such as the sacrificial system. There were laws pertaining to the theocracy of Israel which now do not apply to the democracy of the west although of course the 10 Commandments are a very good guide to life.
For the Christian he starts at the new Testament and uses the old Testament of the background. So the teaching of Christ in the apostles is of prime importance. Does that help you?@wilderflower

@Speedyman That’s a very honest answer. Thank you.

@Speedyman 🤣🤣🤣 dumb speedy.

@JBird

@Speedyman 😴😴😴😪😪😪😪

@Pikachu Sounds good.

@Bushranger Block away, I could honestly care less. Im honored to be the first! Another prime example of top grade morality. No consequences for actions. Check✅

@Reverend I think the sanctity of life is an all or nothing thing. It has to be so, as our attitude towards life is reflected in all of our actions and choices. We have a society that has no respect for life, no value for life. Not just for humans but all living things.

I would agree with you that abortion is murder. I believe capital punishment is murder. That war is murder. That depriving people of healthcare is murder. And that our destruction of the environment is suicide.

I don’t say that to normalize abortion. I say it simply to speak the truth. Our contempt for life is such that overturning Roe v. Wade will not end abortion. We will continue to have abortion through illicit channels. Making something illegal does not end it. Look at illicit drugs.

If one really wishes to end abortion, then one must simultaneously wish to end capital punishment and even war, though defending our interests is a reality just like a police officer using deadly force to protect life. We have to simultaneously wish to end lives cut short through starvation, a lack of healthcare. That may sound ridiculous, but that is what makes us value life again.

I have known abortion providers. People who did OB-GYN for a living. There are certainly some who use abortion as contraception. There are also many more who used it to escape desperate situations. It is to value life to work to end those situations. When a woman says she got an abortion because she was scared the father would abuse her or the child— that is about a disregard for life. Who abuses a child, a woman? When a woman says she got an abortion because she couldn’t care for the child— that is about a disregard for life. Who won’t help feed and clothe a baby? When a woman says she had to abort to keep her job— that too is about a disregard for life. What boss has a problem with a mother? a baby?

I’m with you ethically and spiritually. But I can’t go down this road and put the burden on women and women alone. And force them to make the same choices to abort in dangerous unclean and unregulated environments like before Roe. I’d rather start with the culture that has no regard for life.

BTW: the rate of abortion per capita peaked a few years after Roe, and has been steadily in decline since. There is a lesson there.

I am a human I am flawed! God is God who died for my sins, who saved, me took me out of darkness to his glorious light and he helps me, gives me everything I need and he helps my family! I repent and I don't deserve God! I know God is a just and moral God! @Pikachu

@Carazaa

As you wish 🙂

@Bushranger they trusted in God! They weren’t a church at all!

@Bushranger it’s been interesting discussing this with you! Have a nice evening!

@Carazaa I don't know if it was pointed out yet. There are actually several different resurrection stories way before Christianity and there were several different religious groups before the bible.

I’m not surprised I can’t grasp the subject matter as I have a great deal of trouble grasping incorrect arguments as you are making. You are just plain wrong in your definition. I am not wrong. You are. Survival instinct is not morality. Even the most basic animals have it. Just admit you are totally lacking in any form of logic instead of making silly noises @Pikachu

@Speedyman

[quote]Survival instinct is not morality[/quote]

lmao 😂😭

Yup. Already agreed to that.
So sad that this discussion flew so far above your head.
So sad that you're so [i]desperate[/i] to be right that you can't even remember what has been said to you.

Better luck next time, speedy🤦🏻

No it just flew above your intellect as you just haven’t the intelligence to see you are completely wrong. Anyone with sense or intelligence would see it. Not you

. @Pikachu

@AnonymousJSS I love your responses to him.

@wilderflower Aw, thanks 😜

@AnonymousJSS You’re welcome 😝

@ozgirl512 [quote]how lawless we were before someone invented God[/quote]

Yeah, cuz now it's all sunshine and lollipops.

Yet god does nothing@Budwick

@GodSpeed63 It still sounds kinky, but hey to each their own.
Do you read and follow every word of the bible?

@GodSpeed63 so we can hurt people because they already sinned, right? You're digusting and so is your faith and religion
Your God is not innocent for allowing this. He is cruel just like rest of us. Fortunately, he isn't real.

@JBird oh my word!! No!!

@Pikachu The scientific method has not always existed. It's a relatively recent way of looking at the world. This article refutes that statement.

https://explorable.com/history-of-the-scientific-method

@Sharon Truth is NEVER popular, and especially not now in the age of fake news.

@BiblicalWarrior Why are you avoiding the question? Where is the [b]real[/b] evidence?

@GodSpeed63

[quote]No YOU!😡[/quote]

lol ooo somebody is getting upset.

I'm happy to explain why she's right and then you will show the same level of integrity and explain why you believe she's wrong.

Do you agree? Yes or no?

@Pikachu [quote]ooo somebody is getting upset. [/quote]

Yeah, I can see the look on your face and the tone in your voice. Calm down and clear your head before you give me an answer.

@GodSpeed63

lol hit too close to home, did i?

This is the same situation we have in the other thread, little boy.\
I'm happy to explain why she is right if you agree to then explain why she's wrong.

Do you accept this challenge or do you back down.
Do you accept?
Yes or no....

@JBird Do you believe in an object form of "morality" then?

@Kwek00 I want to say certain humans. But not every human can be moral all the time.

@Abstraction

Very well said. This ubiquity of certain fundamental moral concepts among cultures beyond and before the abrahamic religions seems to show that morality is not dependent on these religious teachings.

@Pikachu This universality can be consistent with both agnostic view and Christian view. It was this exploring this puzzle (in a lot more depth) that was one of the reasons CS Lewis embraced Christianity.

I think lots of christians only half understand the arguments and try to argue that there's no basis for morality apart from God. Demonstrably wrong. The full argument though, is interesting.

@Abstraction

It is interesting. I've watched a few debates on this subject and it appears usually to come down to whether there can be an objective standard for morality that we should care about.
Of course this question is not actually answered by saying that a god is the standard.

@MasterLee

Couldn't agree more lol

@Pikachu
No I didn't yet but I will!

@Carazaa

lol do it now. It'll take literally 30 seconds. It's a one page short list of other religions who have a version of the "golden rule".

@Carazaa [quote]
But it is highly unusual for non Christians to be kind to a rapist or a murderer!
[/quote]
So we should be kind to people who have hurt others. Right, is that why most pastors are found to be rapists?

@kodiac Well. That morality only comes from the fear of God model has a frightening flip side...

... the person who claims that is tacitly admitting they will do anything to you if they feel God demands it.

@CopperCicada That is exactly why that mentality scares me. It is them saying if it wasn't for God I'd kill you. I can't deal with that kind of instability.
Also laying down your life for another gets brought up a lot. I for one would do so if I could save people. Even an enemy. Religion isn't needed for any of that.

@canusernamebemyusername I've heard people say that before actually, it scares me too.

@Speedyman i do not give a "view of history". i give you facts.

these facts are inconvenient for your world view, so you choose to ignore them.

that is ok. you are ignorant and you are stupid. your unfounded arrogance and lack of humility in the face of overwhelming evidence are profoundly unchristian.

if it gives you any twisted satisfaction to tell me i am wrong, you are free to do so. there is clearly no point in my wasting any more time on you.

i wish only that you spend what is left of your life in quiet reflection on your sins and seeking forgiveness from your god.

Sorry but you are totally ignorant of history . I give you facts not theories but you choose to ignore them. You are another example of my theory that atheism is based on ignorance not knowledge and is based on emotionalism and not reasoning. Your last statement is hilarious in asking me to ask forgiveness of sins from my God when you don’t believe in God yourself. It just proves how emotionally wound up you are@Yulianna

@Yulianna Also atheists weren't allowed to join the SS. It's well documented, the Nazis said so themselves. The modern day Nazis are still evangelical.

@Speedyman [quote]
You are the one who believes in the logical process that irrational forces can produce rational beings and that non-personality can produce personality and you are the one who is getting yourself.
[/quote]

Show me where I told you this.

If you are an atheist you believe this@JBird

@Speedyman if you don't have any idea about atheism, please don't talk about it before you make yourself look like fool. Well, you already proven that. 🤣🤣🤣

Another tip, we don't think universe came from nothing. I know it's no use for you idiots to tell you this over and over again because you have low memory capacity. You are not good with big data. 😂

@Carazaa The tree they were forbidden to eat before the fall was the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. It was not until after they disobeyed that they were then barred from the Tree of Life, so as to prevent there ever being an immortal sinner.

@BiblicalWarrior I am not sure about that I'll have to study it again!

@BiblicalWarrior Yes, you are correct!

@Sharon i am not sure that we disagree - i do not dispute anything you say so far. my reference to the love of the christ was about the hypocrisy of his self claimed chriatian views. he cannot even follow his own god!

i am if anything atheist - but i believe in god as a human construct.

@fairefoutre But if it took the form of a monkey you wouldn't worship it. Or would you worship it anyway and hold yourself in contempt?

@Pikachu I'm not a theist btw, but i do think the bible or other christian and also non christian teachings are valuable educational tools

@Penny

How can you not be a theist but believe that jesus is the only way to know god?

@Pikachu i didnt read that in a book. someone told me that. maybe they got it from a book though. who knows? oh, i thought theist meant something else. (just looked it up) i suppose i am a theist then - noun: theist; plural noun: theists
a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

@Northwest [quote]God, manifests itself through religions/tribes, and these religions/tribe compete, violently for control, setting morality aside, or redefining morality, to be whatever fits these religions/tribes objectives. Fear of God keeps religions/tribes in control.[/quote]

You got it backwards, @Northwest. God hates man made organized religion more than we ever could. Just read Matthew 23. One more thing, it's not about religion, never has been or ever will be about religion. It's a relationship with God and His creation through Jesus Christ by His Holy Spirit.

@GodSpeed63 In other words, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and others, are screwed.

@Northwest

There certainly is a lot of god-based justification that goes on for violence and cruelty.

@TheeOriginalAmazingsEXLover How fo we know you’re not lying?

@Sharon
@LeopoldBloom
I could be, no one has any reason or legality to trust me, as I'm a complete stranger to everyone on here. I am no liar and I have zero reason to lie to y'all! There was a voice like thunder that boomed, I was an extremely great runner and it was uncommon for me to not be able to catch another runner ahead of me!

@TheeOriginalAmazingsEXLover [quote]There was a voice like thunder that boomed,[/quote]
Sounds like it could have been Thor.

@Pikachu clearly, I'm speaking and my words are not making sense to you. Read my response just above, first because I took the time to explain it.

If we are all equal, what is morality? What if we all agree or disagree? How can we gauge what's right and what's wrong? Our individual minds? And just agree together on what makes the most sense? It all boils down to what we agree on and that's ad populum. That, or we agree that SOMEONE is above the rest and we follow a leader and that leader can tell us what is best.

Either all ideas are the same in moral correctness or they're not. If what is moral to me is not moral to you, WHO is right? If you got a group of people agreeing with you, does that make ALL of you more correct based on numbers? What would make it right?

@SW-User Correct, which is why we need an objective moral standard. You can say "that's what God is," but the problem with that is accessing it. Many people claim to know what God wants; none, so far, have managed to prove conclusively that they speak for God, and aren't just engaging in the appeal to authority fallacy. Every religious leader of every denomination claims to speak for God; they can't all be right.

I would propose a better objective standard of morality, based on suffering and thriving. That which promotes thriving and/or diminishes suffering is moral; that which promotes suffering and/or diminishes thriving is immoral. The advantage of this is that suffering and thriving are at least theoretically quantifiable, unlike nebulous concepts like "human dignity" or "divine authority" or what have you. You reduce a moral question to a number and pick the highest one.

@SW-User

[quote]How can we gauge what's right and what's wrong? [/quote]

Well i'd answer but HazelMotes summed it up pretty well.

A system based on well being gives us an objective measure for morality. So it doesn't matter if what you think differs from what i think if what i think promotes well being and what you think doesn't.
That's the standard. Placing god as that standard gets us nowhere unless god hisownself actually shows up to administrate it in person.

So it's not really logically true to say that morality can only come from god, is it?

@Carazaa Morality for you is absolute? Would you steal food to help feed a starving baby?

@Entwistle yes!

@Carazaa

You sound like a very principled person, carazaa. Congratulations.

@Pikachu Haha, it's not preaching, it's fact.

@SW-User [quote] it's not preaching, it's fact.[/quote]
If it be fact, you can show us the evidence to prove it. Otherwise it is just your opinion and you're preaching.

@SW-User

[quote]it's not preaching, it's fact.
[/quote]

I acknowledge that, that is what you believe to be true.
But it's not an argument for why we need god for morality. It's just a claim about how an abrahamic morality began.
Do you understand the distinction?

And i would appreciate an answer to my second question.
You said that i'm no different from a religious zealot. So can you validate that claim or was it just something you said in the heat of the moment with no legitimate justification?

@Spoiledbrat Thats pretty much the same thing I said. I just added that many people use their religious views to self justify their abhorrent morals.

@Spoiledbrat Yes, exactly, wanting well and not trying to control others.

@Keepitsimple Who constructs the framework in which your concious operates?

Each person I suppose. Some people can do things easily with no regard of anybody else or guilt that I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. 🤷🏻‍♀️ @Kwek00

@Keepitsimple Your concious is a part of your identity. And your identity is forged by external and internal elements. If you grow up in a patriarchical society where women need to be in the kitchen and not do annything wrong. And that it's the mans' duty to keep them in check for the benefit of everyone. Then your concious will tell you to take out the belt when it's nescessary.

In our liberal communities, we are tought, that this is the wrong thing to do. That women are equal and have the right to find their own happiness. In our communities, most people will argue that taking out the belt to keep your woman in check is wrong.

That's the diffrence... In history, you'll find attrocities done by people that all believed they were doing the right thing. Because conciouss, your heart, love... what ever, it all get defined by where you grow up, in what time frame, and what ideas are dominant in your life. The idea that attrocities only get commited by heartless bastards that don't have a concious is (at least for me) a fairy tale that we tell ourselves to feel better about our own morality.

@Carazaa

[quote]We feel guilty and stop our ongoing sinning[/quote]

Nah bud. Christians feel guilty and try not to sin...and keep doing it and keep feeling guilty and keep asking for forgiveness.
But guess what? That's just what the atheist does as well.

[quote] God killed his baby I believe for his sin of adultery![/quote]

lol the morality of murdering a child for the sins of the parent is a totally different topic.

@Pikachu
Atheists ask God for forgiveness? Have you ever done that?

@Carazaa

lol no. But they do ask for earthly forgiveness.

@Speedyman You're not just an arrogant swine, you're also ignorant. You apparently haven't noticed that there's no consensus on the "teachings of Jesus Christ," since there are thousands of Christian denominations, many of which hold views diametrically opposed to each other.

But I wouldn't expect you to know this since you have never ventured out of the craphole town you grew up in, and assume the miserable little church you attend is representative of the entire world.

The consensus on the teachings of Jesus is found in the new Testament. In fact the denominations do not hold diametrically opposed views and if you knew anything you would know that. They might differ on the lesser things but they unite on the fact that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. You live in your own little world I know but some of us have travelled the world and seen Christians all over the world. Amazing how people like you who live in the shelter of a democracy want to try and lecture me who is been in places you never dare go@LeopoldBloom

@LeopoldBloom
Well, your "modern" acceptance of everything, anything and anyone into church faith despite fundamental values

@SW-User I'm a big fan of evolutionary morality of which mythology is actually apart of ironically:

[b]https://www.pnas.org/content/107/Supplement_2/9015[/b]

Like Aesop's fables, which isn't particularly religious and relating to God but still works the same way.