@LeeInTheNorthWoods [quote]You're on the internet right now. What part of any indigenous culture resulted in the internet? Space travel? High-yield agriculture?[/quote] So what I'm hearing is that because you think your culture is superior to theirs, it's okay to wipe them off the face of the earth? Nice to meet you, Adolf. Thought you died after World War II.
The Six Most Common Karyotypes The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
Even the biological sexes are complex, sex and gender are two different subjects.
@TheGreatestEver123 Oh, dear. Did you read the article above that was recommended by Peaceandnamaste? [u]https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1[/u]/
If you read it & still believe that there's a spectrum between male & female, then perhaps you and I think in different ways.
Let's say that with most human traits there is a spectrum, with the largest numbers of the populations clustering in a bell curve around the centre mark. Let's use IQ as a typical example of a particular type of trait.
Now let's reverse that, but change the look of the curve. We have the largest numbers of the population clustering as fully male on one side, roughly 48% of adults. On the opposite end are the fully female adults, roughly 50% of adults. In between is a hyperbolic curve dropping rapidly and then stretching horizontally towards the centre mark. The whole of the low population totals only 2% of the population - but among them is an almost infinite range of variables of male or female physical and neurological traits. At the exact centre are people with both male and female external physical traits. Although most of us carry two chromosomes that determine our sex - xx or xy - each chromosome carries hundreds to thousands of genes. A chromosome contains hundreds to thousands of genes. And these are not always purely xx or xy. Like every other genetic trait, there can be recessives which get switched on by chance or by environment, or there can be natural mutation.
I believe that 2% is what I'd call common. For instance, bipolar, schizophrenia, and autism spectrum all come in at 1% of the population - and yet within my wider social circle of acquaintances I have 4 friends on the AS, have been very close to 6 bipolar people and have met several who suffer schizophrenia. Two percent means it's inevitable that most of us will meet intersex people at large high schools, in the workplace and anywhere where there are lots of people. In my view, it's common enough to deserve awareness, understanding and acceptance. If it were something like one in million, I'd forgive myself for not knowing about it or understanding it.
I have met people here who really believe that it's the norms that should determine our idea of reality. The idea of it being "practical" to me just means that it's convenient for the majority. I can understand that. But it has a terrible price for the people who don't fit.
@TheGreatestEver123 [quote]Gender is not. There are males and females and that is it.[/quote] Gender is a continuum from masculine to feminine. Male and female are sexes.
@Sharon yes, so there are no ‘genders’. And ‘man’ and ‘woman’ refer to biological sex, not gender. All our identification documents note our biological sex, not gender. Gender is basically meaningless when it comes to separate women’s spaces. That’s based on biology.
No. I acknowledge people want to be called different things and on an individual basis I will recognize those personal preferences (within practical reason), but there are only 2 genders in biological terms, religious and philosophical perspectives, and reality.
@hartfire [quote]I challenge you to look up and quote the definition of gaslighting, and then show how transadvocacy fits that definition. Please.[/quote] It doesn't. I'm saying that @MarkPaul is projecting when he uses that word. [quote]By the way, your meme is technically a nice piece of artwork. Was it easy to collage together?[/quote] I can't take the credit. I Googled "steampunk projectionist".
Of course not. Even people who make this claim acknowledge, indirectly, that there's only two genders...have they managed to invent a gender beyond male and female? No lol. They have only come up with "nothing" or "both". Nothing isn't a gender, and both is just a combination of male and female. People who assign themselves a new gender can still only choose male or female and transition to either one of those genders, and those who fluctuate can only be male and female...there is no other gender. It's true that gender isn't exactly the same as sex, but it still comes from sex. If you only have two sexes, you will only have two genders...anything else is just inventing subcategories, and that falls short of actually creating a new and different gender, distinct from male and female.
Soo, we have only two genders. "Neuter" essentially means nothing or not identifying as either gender. That, as you should be able to work out, does not make it a separate or different gender.
SW-User
@Emosaur that's great, I'm so glad to hear that your friends are choosing their gender identities from the two genders that we have. It's really revolutionary 🙄
[big][center][u][i][b][c=A69800]This bullshit needs to stop!
My answer: NO!
Only TWO GENDERS: You are born either a Girl 👧🏼 or Boy 🧒🏼..
And you grow up to be: A Girl becomes a Woman 👩👩💼👰🏼 A Boy becomes a Man 👨🏼👨💼
Simple as that really but it is bein pushed on us and the children from people who don't give a shit.
They manipulate and brainwash others especially children.. this has happened before.
Also those people such as The Who, World Economic Forum (WEF), Clowns at government, The illuminati and more are doing this so that people are changing who they are, so that not everyone is having babies: to have certain number of people in the world and mostly so they would be able to CONTROL people.
So the use sex aswell: condoms and other things used to maybe stop people from having children = easy to control if they have certain amount of people in the world..
+ why they kill people aswell such as what happened in 2020 and other years, why they start wars, why they put stuff in food and drinks, "vaccines and shots" like in 2021 and 2022!
People need to see what is really going on in the world.
@PrincessRoarBuddy So you claim to know science but believe in conspiracy theories like the illuminati and vaccines causing autism. There's no proof that the illuminati ever existed. And there's plenty of scientific proof that vaccines are safe. But there's no proof that the illuminati existed. It's conspiracy theorist BS.
@PrincessRoarBuddy Republicans only care about guns than the lives of their children. They call themselves pro life but worships and sacrifices lives by the name of the mighty gun and mighty dollar.
In Dadeville there was a shooting.
Stop worshipping guns, thoughts and prayers don't do anything if nobody isn't taking any action against gun violence and banning the use of assault weapons.
@DarkHeaven if the government introduced a law that all black people (and only black people) would be paid reparations and there was no need for anyone to provide evidence of wrongdoing against their ancestors, should I also be paid if I identified as black even though my skin is white and none of my ancestors were black?
@Peaceandnamaste more dishonest comments from you. They are not discriminating against drag performers. The law protects children from ‘adult live show performances’, especially in schools. There have been a couple of examples of drag acts in schools that have explicitly sexual content and/or nudity that is inappropriate for young children. The law also doesn’t just apply to drag performers. It applies to anyone.
It is completely dishonest for you to not acknowledge this, but I wouldn’t expect anything else from a silly ideologue like you.
@Gloomy That’s how you know what a parakeet is, blue ceres for boys and pink ceres for girls. And parakeets know what gender we are and use the proper pronouns when they are talking about me or the boy
@Budwick It also sounds like that when you don't have any better argument than just say the same statement over and over and over again. Wonder which one it is here.
No, only two. Those with XY Chromosomes, and those with XX Chromosomes. I do understand those who want to be the opposite gender, so while they can only change their outward appearance they will always be the gender that they were born, no matter what parts they remove or add.
@TheGreatestEver123 since this is an online interaction you could be anyone and if you woule be a genuine person I would be respectful and change the way I address you after receiving this information
Yes. There are only 2 genders. Everything else is just a social stigma to define a sense of seperation and self acceptance for the changes they made to themselves to feel comfortable.
There are male glands that go together with female glands to create a humanoid copy. To say there was another gender would mean that another being either reproduces by itself or had some other form of reproduction that is outside of regular human anatomy.
@Gloomy They believe the more often they repeat their stupidities the more true they become. When that’s no longer sufficient they start to create false narratives.
@GuyWithOpinions No - that's not the case. People born intersex have such a wide range of deviations that one [i]cannot[/i] generalise.
Some are totally asexual. They have zero libido and can't understand the sufferings of people over romantic love, sexual desire and lack of getting enough satisfaction.
Some - such as XXYs, appear as fully functional women, but they have: seven times the libido of an ordinary woman (normal men have 14 times more libido that normal women), far greater physical strength and endurance, far greater initiative and courage, and often end up as world champion athletes. There are now huge debates in the IOC and elsewhere over whether to allow them to compete with ordinary women or create separate competitions for them. They can still get pregnant, carry a baby to full term, and breastfeed.
Some - those who used to be called hermaphrodites - have both male and female external genitals and sex traits. The size and form varies, from fully expressed to vestigial.
Some are both as one sex in external appearance, but have the opposite on the insides of their bodies - such as female outside but with testes and prostate inside / or male outside with a womb and ovaries on the inside. In both variations, [i]all[/i] the gonads are actively producing hormones and thus creating abnormal levels of desire (too much or too little), courage, initiative, etc. This leads the person to feel they are a different sex on the inside - as a person - than how they appear to others.
Some - such as the XYYs, have excessive libido and aggression and have a high tendency to become violent offenders and criminals. These present as hyper-male, but they are actually just another variation amid all the forms of sex deviation.
@BohemianBoo that’s not a description of how arbitrary ‘gender’ is. That describes how arbitrary language is. The same is true of the neutral pronoun. It used to be ‘he’ in English. Language is a social construct, including the word ‘gender’ itself (which was invented in 1951).
I still think biology matters. You seem to think the tropes are arbitrary and socially constructed, almost forced upon children, but they really are not. Some of them are, but many are mapped onto biology, particularly evolutionary biology. For this reason, I just cannot call a biological male who makes no attempt (or a very poor attempt) to appear to look like a biological female ‘she’. You must agree with me to some extent because you acknowledge the notion of ‘looking like’ a man or woman, which includes biological features. I just cannot accept such a person is a woman even if that’s how they say they identify.
The dictionary definition of ‘woman’ is ‘adult human female’ and always had been for centuries with the exception of the Cambridge dictionary that changed its definition last year out of fear of offending transgender people (the vast majority of whom agree with my stance entirely).
@TheGreatestEver123 Keep in mind that during this time, it was also normal for kids to wear dresses, Basically, it used to be that all kids were girls, then they'd eventually either become women, or they would become boys and then men.
[quote]I still think biology matters. You seem to think the tropes are arbitrary and socially constructed, almost forced upon children, but they really are not. Some of them are, but many are mapped onto biology, particularly evolutionary biology. [/quote]
Of course biology matters. But when it comes to gender, biology plays a rather small part. We gender things that aren't even human all the time.
[quote]For this reason, I just cannot call a biological male who makes no attempt (or a very poor attempt) to appear to look like a biological female ‘she’.[/quote]
Considering people don't really become trans unless they feel a strong connection to their gender identity, you'll probably never be in that situation. A good way to think of it is that biological sex is your internal genetics, while gender is how you express yourself. Gender is more about society and culture.
[quote]You must agree with me to some extent because you acknowledge the notion of ‘looking like’ a man or woman, which includes biological features. I just cannot accept such a person is a woman even if that’s how they say they identify.[/quote]
Yeah, I accept that every gender has a look, and people generally look like their gender identity. I just think self-identity has more social utility so that we don't get into questions of how feminine someone has to look to be considered a woman. Especially since we already have cis women getting accused of secretly being males by transphobes who are overly concerned with biology.
[quote]The dictionary definition of ‘woman’ is ‘adult human female’ and always had been for centuries with the exception of the Cambridge dictionary that changed its definition last year out of fear of offending transgender people (the vast majority of whom agree with my stance entirely)[/quote]
I think that's such a stupid definition. We've always gendered non-human things. Mythology is full of goddesses who are portrayed as women with she/her pronouns despite not being human. And today, we gender things like Alexa and Siri as basically being women. We've always gendered non-humans. By that dictionary definition, even Wonder Woman isn't really a woman. Plus, it's not like biological sex is that clear-cut either. There are so many people who don't have an XX or XY chromosome set. Throughout history, we weren't checking people's chromosomes to find out if they were male or female. We also, thankfully, weren't demanding everyone get naked so we can see what body parts they have. We just went by how they identified. Even age is a social thing. At what age is someone an adult? In America, we kinda just decided randomly that it's 18 when it easily could have been 19. It's all so arbitrary, all social categories are defined by society.
Yes. More than two to both sex and gender. It’s just that some folks don’t like when people create labels that empower them. They only like the labels that they give them that try to take their power away.
@Belladonna Right now the big thing is to hate on transgender people. A few short years ago everyone was all accepting but then the media told them to change their minds apparently so now people are back to hating.
People have such a problem with trans. Conservatives are making money off these debates, politicians are trying to pass laws, people are whining, talking about science, etc.
Guess what? The REAL rulers of this planet, rich corporations, are in favor of trans. That's right, they call the shots. Not conservatives, not religious wack jobs, not anti-trans youtubers.
That means it is not going away. You can call trans women "men in dresses" or whatever but guess what? they are here to stay. And the number of them is increasing.
Some say "I will not feed into their delusions!" That's fine, you do not have to. Trans people are going to live their lives as they see fit whether you approve or not.
@TheGreatestEver123 @Peaceandnamaste Conservatives and religious crack pots have a huge problem with anything that makes people happy, or as much as we CAN be happy in this life.
And for Peaceandnamaste - Isn't it funny how even when someone is living a completely normal life, as the gender they are "Suppose to" and also not listening to the wrong kind of music or wearing the wrong clothes, they are STILL expected to clinch their azzholes when in the presence of some pain in the azz "christian".
Like , "Oh hey my mom/grandpa/whoever is highly religious..." I mean that sh*t is stigmatized by those of us who do not follow that BS.
They have to warn others that someone is a righteous whack job.
Also for everyone arguing that gender is exclusively cultural and sex is exclusively biological, that isn't exactly true either. As I said in another comment, these things have shifted and changed a lot throughout history and culture. Biology and gender and what relationship they've had if any has changed and shifted a lot just as well.
@Gloomy That is interesting, was that before or after hormones though? And regardless, I think that its possible that the brain is altering itself based off a number of factors, hormones might only be one. Did they come to any conclusion as to why this is?
@soberSimplicity Before gender-affirming hormone therapy. The sample group was still small and research on the matter is ongoing. I think it is so important that the stigma is being fought so research like this can be conducted but there is still an opposition to trans healthcare unfortunately.
@Gloomy Hmmm, I would be curious to see a much larger look into this to be done. How does it account NBs into this process? What is their brain structure like?
I agree, my state just this morning based some an ""emergency"" bill thats restricting HRT for quite a bit of adults as well. Luckily I should be fine since im already taking hormones, but even thats sadly uncertain.
@TheGreatestEver123 Its mainly the redneck hick maga loving trumplicans and the conservative gun loving Christians that are making the laws that oppress women, taking voting rights from black people, don't care about the environment and wants child labor back, wants to kick immigrants out, and they also want to ban and burn books, and ban Indigenous groups from practicing their own culture, apparently the environment isn't sacred to conservatives/republicans they see it as disposable and dead matter that will be destroyed by a rapture. They call themselves pro-life when they're actually pro-death, they only value their guns more than the health of the environment and the safety of actual born children. They only care more about the safety of a small unborn fetus than the lives killed by public shootings.
Environmental racism is a real thing and it's affecting black communities, women, native American communities and other impoverished marginalized communities in a negative rate through climate change and increasing natural disasters. Plus there's Social inequalities.
Forms of racism: You have plain bigotry and hate and the use of racial slurs, and of course there's prejudice examples would be the KKK, Neo Nazis and MAGA, and plus the institutional power that comes with it. Segregation and Jim crow is an example of this.
The KKK is a racist Protestant terrorist group that preaches hate against LGBTQ+ people, Black people, women, Catholics, Muslims, atheists, Jews, Hispanics including Native Americans, and they also hate people with disabilities and also hate anyone who is not wealthy or white, anglo Saxon or Protestant.
Racism exists in the structures, institutions and systems of America.
There's different levels of power in systemic racism.
We have environmental racism- Lack of clean water, clean air, inadequate infrastructure, and inadequate plumbing in marginalized communities and neighborhoods. And there's other examples of environmental injustices including the flint water crisis, Arsenic and lead contamination in a well at an Indian reservation and the infamous cancer alley in Louisiana, and sewage problems from bad plumbing plagued a small deep southern town in uniontown Al.
Religious racism- believes segregation and slavery is a "god given right" and that slaves should obey their masters.
Scientific racism- the belief that non white people especially black people and Native Americans are biologically and genetically inferior to anglo saxon white people despite the fact that science today has proven that all humans are 99.9% genetically similar and the small 0.1-0.2% gives us the different phenotypes and traits. We live in a cisgender white male dominated society so Sexism and racism is still today embedded in stereotypes and in society. These caused the medical and health disparities in ethnic minorities in America
I'm gonna answer a slightly different question. I think there are people who don't fit well into either the male or the female category. We sometimes call them "intersex." I don't know if they are a "new gender," but it seems pretty clear they don't fully fit either "male" or "female."
[quote]According to Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, a recognized expert in this field of study, 1-1/2 to 2% of all births do not fall strictly within the tight definition of all-male or all-female, even if the child looks "normal." In reaching her numbers, Dr. Fausto-Sterling counted all incidents of intersexuality, from mild to extreme. The incidence of children with mixed genitalia is pegged at 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 3,000, or 0.033 to 0.05 percent of all births. [/quote]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]Thomas Beatie 'the pregnant man.' [/b]
[quote]He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.
In 2008, after he wrote an essay for The Advocate about his pregnancy — a piece he wrote, he said, because he was desperately seeking advice from anyone who had been in his shoes, and fearful that his daughter would be taken away by authorities — Beatie's story spread around the world. Photos of Beatie cradling his stomach — a bare, enlarged, pregnant stomach — achieved infamy. Requests for TV and magazine interviews rushed in. He wrote a book about his experience titled “Labor of Love,” became the subject of multiple TV specials and even went on to star in a French reality show. [/quote] [b]https://www.today.com/health/thomas-beatie-reflects-his-fame-pregnant-man-t223681[/b]
[i]Man or woman???[/i]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]80% of this person's cells are male with XY chromosomes. [/b] Some sports organizations would bar this person from competing in woman's sports on those grounds.
[quote] [b]The Woman Who Gave Birth Despite Most Of Her Cells Having XY Chromosomes[/b]
In 2008, doctors reported a curious case report about a woman who gave birth despite the majority of her cells having XY chromosomes, typically held by people who are biologically male.
A woman from Croatia sought medical attention when at 17-years-old she had not yet developed breasts, nor had her first period. Upon examination, the doctors didn't find much out of the ordinary, aside from the absence of these signs of female puberty...
... Though her blood was found to be 46,XY, samples taken from elsewhere around her body were not so. Cells in her skin were found to be 80 percent 46,XY and 20 percent 45,X, indicating Turner Syndrome with mosaicism... ... More interestingly, her ovaries were found to be predominantly 46,XY (93 percent 46,XY and 6 percent 45,X), i.e. her ovaries contained chromosomes typically found in the cells of male individuals. [/quote] [b]https://www.iflscience.com/the-woman-who-gave-birth-despite-most-of-her-cells-having-xy-chromosomes-61747[/b]
@TheGreatestEver123 I've had PLENTY of people here on SW tell me there are two genders two sexes that's all no exceptions. The Floridian known as 'Sunstroke' is one. There have been plenty of others. Denial of intersex seems to be rolled into this whole anti-cross-dressing thing that's sprung up recently.
@TheGreatestEver123 As i said before, I'm not claiming a particular number of genders (I'm not even sure of the definition of that word outside of grammar (I took Latin - there are 3 genders in Latin)). I'm only saying there are citizens of this nation that don't fit into either of the main categories.
Also, as I indicated above, I'm leery of applying words like "defect" or "deformity" to world class athletes.
here are citizens of this nation that don't fit into the two main categories whether you draw the lines with X&Y chromosomes or with reproductive organs or with hormone levels. My point is that intersex is a real biological phenomenon, not some kind of hoax.
[quote]Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.
Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people.[/quote]
There are generally only two sexes (though some people are apparently born with both sexual organs).
As for Gender, as a social construct, it technically can be defined anyway socialize wants to define it, as it's a made up by society...
It's like language, it's made up by society, and society can make new words or new ways of saying things it they want.
Like all other mammals, there are two human sexes. That is how the species continues. Trying to ascribe biological sources of psychological conditions is socially counterproductive.
Now you can call me names and tell me I'm dangerous.
@Peaceandnamaste I ran a business most of my adult life with more than 40 employees, all but two were male. Dealt with a lot of machinery -- started out with analog and ended up with mostly digital. I had customers in four different countries. How about you, princess? Maybe if you had more life experiences you wouldn't be so gullible and less condescending. The world isn't composed of stereotypes, unless you live in a world of stenotypes yourself.
@LeeInTheNorthWoods I can't help but notice you refuse to acknowledge or discuss the articles I shared. Do they scare you? Are you afraid to have a discussion based on actual scientific consensus?
Sex nor Gender are binary. And its not a recent "trend" that its viewed that way. Most of history third positions have been recognized. In a lot of ways its almost more modern to see gender and sex as so binary. Granted, there are a lot of cultural nuances there. But rightist peoples are usually known for their cultural nuances.
mmm I tend to look at gender as a spectrum so I believe there's like 2 polarities but it's hard to actually answer that questino because its complicated. if you believe in 2 poles male and female but you believe people vary to infiinte shades of inbetween....
@Peaceandnamaste do you believe there are more than just male or female? You are born with a certain type of dna. It is unique to you. In it you can use it to tell if someone is male or female. On a unborn baby the ultrasound tech will do a gender reveal and tell you what gender your baby is. There are only two genders really male and female. Anything else is just a lie.
@MrBrownstone Let's get the bisexual correct, shall we?
[quote][b]Bisexuality[/b] is an attraction to more than one gender. Those who identify as bisexual feel a sexual and/or romantic attraction to people of a different gender as well as their own. [/quote]
[quote][b]Myth:[/b] Bisexual people date only cisgender men or women.
While the prefix “bi” may literally mean two, bisexuality does not mean attraction to only two genders. For many bisexual people, the “bi” indicates an attraction to their same gender as well as other genders.[/quote]
You did a nice job breaking out the genetic variations that make these waters a bit murky. But I do recall my biology professor telling us male and female are physiologically determined by the presence of either ovarian tissue or testicular tissue. Even in the case of hermaphrodites or intersex with vestigial genitalia of both genders, they typically will only present one of those tissue types...either ovarian only or testicular only, hence defining them as either male or female. In very rare cases, both tissue types have been present...then, I don't know. Flip a coin? I suppose you could try to make an argument for a 3rd gender.
@SW-User I think, someone who is not able to identify themselves as male or female, they could be identified as neuter. But when someone tries to identify their gender with their sexual preferences, it becomes an issues in society. Gender and sexual preference must be kept separate.
SW-User
@ABCDEF7 I fully agree. What bothers me on this site is people's complete pigheaded refusal to believe that sex and gender are synonymous, and that your sexual preference has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you're happy with your gender.
Biological sex = Male or Female; regardless of claims, birth defects/extra chromosomes, mutations, etc. you are either male or female at birth, no amount of surgery can change that.
Gender = Masculine or Feminine, basically a scale of behavior within your biological sex (manly to effeminate, girly girl to tomboy); any claim beyond that is simply a delusion and/or a symptom of psychosis
Genetics defines biological sex, Character/Personality defines gender; no delusion or mannerism changes either...
Since this question is not about sex, I'm not going to get into that. But if you want to call a transwoman or transman a third gender, well, that's on WHO's guidelines and I haven't checked but I bet its in the grey area. Then there are people who like adopting both gender roles.. so essentially I'm not sure a mixture of the two genders accounts for a third gender, but then again, genders are socially constructed so I guess researchers will figure this out sooner or later. As for hermaphrodites or pseudohermaphrodites they can simply choose which gender they identify with the most.
@val70 You're trying to use Darwin as some kind of authority on the matter when not everything he said are things that modern scientists agree with, even outside of gender etc. Is that really your best argument?
First of i go by the noun sex because gender implies gender roles exist and the only difference in abilities is reproduction. I’m not sure how many exist and how we might define them but it’s more than two. I’ve met people who are naturally unique. I knew someone in college who said they had both a testicale and Ovary and their voice was higher than any stereotypical gay guy I’ve ever met. And they were born this way.
