Do you agree that there's more than 2 genders?
26-30, F
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ElwoodBlues · M
I'm gonna answer a slightly different question. I think there are people who don't fit well into either the male or the female category. We sometimes call them "intersex." I don't know if they are a "new gender," but it seems pretty clear they don't fully fit either "male" or "female."
[quote]According to Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, a recognized expert in this field of study, 1-1/2 to 2% of all births do not fall strictly within the tight definition of all-male or all-female, even if the child looks "normal." In reaching her numbers, Dr. Fausto-Sterling counted all incidents of intersexuality, from mild to extreme. The incidence of children with mixed genitalia is pegged at 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 3,000, or 0.033 to 0.05 percent of all births. [/quote]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]Thomas Beatie 'the pregnant man.' [/b]
[quote]He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now
His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.
In 2008, after he wrote an essay for The Advocate about his pregnancy — a piece he wrote, he said, because he was desperately seeking advice from anyone who had been in his shoes, and fearful that his daughter would be taken away by authorities — Beatie's story spread around the world. Photos of Beatie cradling his stomach — a bare, enlarged, pregnant stomach — achieved infamy. Requests for TV and magazine interviews rushed in. He wrote a book about his experience titled “Labor of Love,” became the subject of multiple TV specials and even went on to star in a French reality show. [/quote]
[b]https://www.today.com/health/thomas-beatie-reflects-his-fame-pregnant-man-t223681[/b]
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[i]Man or woman???[/i]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]80% of this person's cells are male with XY chromosomes. [/b] Some sports organizations would bar this person from competing in woman's sports on those grounds.
[quote] [b]The Woman Who Gave Birth Despite Most Of Her Cells Having XY Chromosomes[/b]
In 2008, doctors reported a curious case report about a woman who gave birth despite the majority of her cells having XY chromosomes, typically held by people who are biologically male.
A woman from Croatia sought medical attention when at 17-years-old she had not yet developed breasts, nor had her first period. Upon examination, the doctors didn't find much out of the ordinary, aside from the absence of these signs of female puberty...
... Though her blood was found to be 46,XY, samples taken from elsewhere around her body were not so. Cells in her skin were found to be 80 percent 46,XY and 20 percent 45,X, indicating Turner Syndrome with mosaicism...
... More interestingly, her ovaries were found to be predominantly 46,XY (93 percent 46,XY and 6 percent 45,X), i.e. her ovaries contained chromosomes typically found in the cells of male individuals. [/quote]
[b]https://www.iflscience.com/the-woman-who-gave-birth-despite-most-of-her-cells-having-xy-chromosomes-61747[/b]
[i]Male or female?[/i]
[quote]According to Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, a recognized expert in this field of study, 1-1/2 to 2% of all births do not fall strictly within the tight definition of all-male or all-female, even if the child looks "normal." In reaching her numbers, Dr. Fausto-Sterling counted all incidents of intersexuality, from mild to extreme. The incidence of children with mixed genitalia is pegged at 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 3,000, or 0.033 to 0.05 percent of all births. [/quote]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]Thomas Beatie 'the pregnant man.' [/b]
[quote]He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now
His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.
In 2008, after he wrote an essay for The Advocate about his pregnancy — a piece he wrote, he said, because he was desperately seeking advice from anyone who had been in his shoes, and fearful that his daughter would be taken away by authorities — Beatie's story spread around the world. Photos of Beatie cradling his stomach — a bare, enlarged, pregnant stomach — achieved infamy. Requests for TV and magazine interviews rushed in. He wrote a book about his experience titled “Labor of Love,” became the subject of multiple TV specials and even went on to star in a French reality show. [/quote]
[b]https://www.today.com/health/thomas-beatie-reflects-his-fame-pregnant-man-t223681[/b]
[i]Man or woman???[/i]
[sep][sep][sep]
[b]80% of this person's cells are male with XY chromosomes. [/b] Some sports organizations would bar this person from competing in woman's sports on those grounds.
[quote] [b]The Woman Who Gave Birth Despite Most Of Her Cells Having XY Chromosomes[/b]
In 2008, doctors reported a curious case report about a woman who gave birth despite the majority of her cells having XY chromosomes, typically held by people who are biologically male.
A woman from Croatia sought medical attention when at 17-years-old she had not yet developed breasts, nor had her first period. Upon examination, the doctors didn't find much out of the ordinary, aside from the absence of these signs of female puberty...
... Though her blood was found to be 46,XY, samples taken from elsewhere around her body were not so. Cells in her skin were found to be 80 percent 46,XY and 20 percent 45,X, indicating Turner Syndrome with mosaicism...
... More interestingly, her ovaries were found to be predominantly 46,XY (93 percent 46,XY and 6 percent 45,X), i.e. her ovaries contained chromosomes typically found in the cells of male individuals. [/quote]
[b]https://www.iflscience.com/the-woman-who-gave-birth-despite-most-of-her-cells-having-xy-chromosomes-61747[/b]
[i]Male or female?[/i]
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues both are women. Both were observed to be female from birth. Both got pregnant. Doctors were right again.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 Neither would be allowed to compete in women's sports. So by that medical definition, neither is a woman. Obstetricians and sports doctors are saying opposite things. Some of those doctors are wrong. So how do you know which group of doctors listen to??
Also, there are hermaphroditic people with XXY chromosomes and sterile gametes. Can't make a baby, can't carry a baby, have a bit of both kinds of sex organs. They don't fit in either category.
Also, there are hermaphroditic people with XXY chromosomes and sterile gametes. Can't make a baby, can't carry a baby, have a bit of both kinds of sex organs. They don't fit in either category.
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues why would they not be allowed to compete? Is it because they have too much testosterone?
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 XY chromosomes in muscles is enough to eliminate a contestant. So is naturally higher levels of testosterone. Here are three women eliminated for testosterone:
[quote] Namibian 18-year-old sprinters Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi will not be allowed to compete in the women's 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics due to having naturally high testosterone levels, according to the Namibia National Olympic Committee.
Driving the news: The sprinters now join South African runner Caster Semenya, who is banned from competing after World Athletics ruled in 2018 "that to ensure fair competition, women with high natural testosterone levels must take medication to reduce them to compete in middle-distance races," CNN writes. [/quote]
[quote] Namibian 18-year-old sprinters Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi will not be allowed to compete in the women's 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics due to having naturally high testosterone levels, according to the Namibia National Olympic Committee.
Driving the news: The sprinters now join South African runner Caster Semenya, who is banned from competing after World Athletics ruled in 2018 "that to ensure fair competition, women with high natural testosterone levels must take medication to reduce them to compete in middle-distance races," CNN writes. [/quote]
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues I see. Yes, it’s quite difficult when these biological anomalies appear, but they are exceptions to the rule. In the case of intersex people, they are very rare (although not as rare as some people think) and it’s difficult to place them biologically. But it doesn’t invalidate the truth of binary sex. They are a deformity of the two sexes combined, not a third sex. In any case, you are (quite rightly) highlighting biological factors. The gender movement is telling us that biological sex and gender are unrelated and that ‘woman’ and ‘man’ is nothing to do with one’s biology. It’s a social construct, so they wouldn’t be interested in separating sport into biological categories.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 I agree that [i]most[/i] people fit easily into the two big categories.
[quote] They are a deformity of the two sexes combined, not a third sex. [/quote]
I'm leery of applying the word "deformity" to world class athletes. As I mentioned above, [quote] According to Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, a recognized expert in this field of study, 1-1/2 to 2% of all births do not fall strictly within the tight definition of all-male or all-female, even if the child looks "normal." [/quote] I'm not claiming a particular number of genders (I'm not even sure of the definition of that word outside of grammar (I took Latin - there are 3 genders in Latin)). I'm only saying there are citizens of this nation that don't fit into either of the main categories.
[quote] The gender movement is telling us ... [/quote] I can't speak for "the gender movement," I'm not sure you can either. I'm not sure its monolithic. Anyway my goal is not to promote or oppose anyone's movement; my goal is to promote understanding of people's differences.
We live in a nation dedicated to freedom and to equality under the law for [i]all.[/i] We live in a nation that has spent decades making handicap accessibility the rule rather than the exception. I would have grave doubts about telling a group of people with rare physiology that they don't fit in our society.
[quote] They are a deformity of the two sexes combined, not a third sex. [/quote]
I'm leery of applying the word "deformity" to world class athletes. As I mentioned above, [quote] According to Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, a recognized expert in this field of study, 1-1/2 to 2% of all births do not fall strictly within the tight definition of all-male or all-female, even if the child looks "normal." [/quote] I'm not claiming a particular number of genders (I'm not even sure of the definition of that word outside of grammar (I took Latin - there are 3 genders in Latin)). I'm only saying there are citizens of this nation that don't fit into either of the main categories.
[quote] The gender movement is telling us ... [/quote] I can't speak for "the gender movement," I'm not sure you can either. I'm not sure its monolithic. Anyway my goal is not to promote or oppose anyone's movement; my goal is to promote understanding of people's differences.
We live in a nation dedicated to freedom and to equality under the law for [i]all.[/i] We live in a nation that has spent decades making handicap accessibility the rule rather than the exception. I would have grave doubts about telling a group of people with rare physiology that they don't fit in our society.
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues well I can agree with most of that but I think fairness in sport is important. The figures that Anne Fausto-Sterling suggests (1.7%) of births being intersex has been heavily scrutinised as too high because it includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is about 0.018%.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 I've seen that 0.018% figure; I think it represents a lower bound. Here's another interesting stat, total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance: one or two in 1,000 births, so about 10X higher than 0.018%.
But I don't want to debate an exact number; I just want to be clear that intersex genitalia is a real, if rare, biological phenomenon, and intersex according to athletic rules is a real biological phenomenon, and intersex is not just some kind of gaslighting cheat for political ends.
P.S. I'm not trying to imply in any way that you have called it a cheat or gaslighting, but that is the way some folks on the right respond to intersex stats.
But I don't want to debate an exact number; I just want to be clear that intersex genitalia is a real, if rare, biological phenomenon, and intersex according to athletic rules is a real biological phenomenon, and intersex is not just some kind of gaslighting cheat for political ends.
P.S. I'm not trying to imply in any way that you have called it a cheat or gaslighting, but that is the way some folks on the right respond to intersex stats.
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues but again, many of those whose genitals are normalised do not fall within the classification of intersex according to most clinicians.
I’ve never heard anyone deny the existence of intersex people. Can you name anyone that has?
I’ve never heard anyone deny the existence of intersex people. Can you name anyone that has?
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 I've had PLENTY of people here on SW tell me there are two genders two sexes that's all no exceptions. The Floridian known as 'Sunstroke' is one. There have been plenty of others. Denial of intersex seems to be rolled into this whole anti-cross-dressing thing that's sprung up recently.
TheGreatestEver123 · 41-45, M
@ElwoodBlues intersex is not a third sex. It is a birth defect between the two sexes.
ElwoodBlues · M
@TheGreatestEver123 As i said before, I'm not claiming a particular number of genders (I'm not even sure of the definition of that word outside of grammar (I took Latin - there are 3 genders in Latin)). I'm only saying there are citizens of this nation that don't fit into either of the main categories.
Also, as I indicated above, I'm leery of applying words like "defect" or "deformity" to world class athletes.
here are citizens of this nation that don't fit into the two main categories whether you draw the lines with X&Y chromosomes or with reproductive organs or with hormone levels. My point is that intersex is a real biological phenomenon, not some kind of hoax.
Also, as I indicated above, I'm leery of applying words like "defect" or "deformity" to world class athletes.
here are citizens of this nation that don't fit into the two main categories whether you draw the lines with X&Y chromosomes or with reproductive organs or with hormone levels. My point is that intersex is a real biological phenomenon, not some kind of hoax.