In the US we actually once had a very successful and popular public housing system. So popular that even many middle class families were taking part in it. What happened?
Realtors and landlords. They wanted people with money to buying and renting houses in the private market so they could make their profits. So they lobbied to put income limits on public housing availability.
The result was that it took healthy mixed income communities and changed them into places of focused poverty. That focused poverty reduced tax revenues of certain areas and led to a downturn in social services. The concentrated desperation led to an increase in crime. And basically it turned mid and high rise public housing neighborhoods into very bad places to live.
I bring this up, because revisiting public housing in the manner you propose has to be understood on a deeper level. Otherwise people are just going to point to failures like The Projects and say it won't work while ignoring all the reasons it actually failed.
@ViciDraco I know of at least one housing project of that nature that is still going strong in Oregon City. The houses are all depressingly identical, but they are houses. Not apartments, not a single monolithic building. Actual houses, with yards. Near a school, no less. There is hope for the projects.
Can you explain logically a right that obligates others? Rights are individual things. You have the right to free speech but we’re not obligated to buy you a megaphone. In the US we have the right to keep and bear arms but there are no free Glocks.
You have the right to pursue something not to demand it be given to you.
@MethDozer It's quite amazing that the poor are driven by want... but those people that can't sleep at night because their property might get lost seem to be free of want... or at least, it's not really attributed to them. I'm also still amazed on how casual a person can be to say: "yeah, in my perfect society there will be rich people, and for every rich person there will be at least 500 poor.", as in... these 2 phenomena are connected with one another. Instead of thinking of the consequences of such a society, he goes on by saying that too remedy the negative effects of this society that this merchant wants to build, you'll have to make sure that these poor people fear the state that the rich erect to maintain their wealth. Fuck the poor, even if they are a consequence of our merchant way of life.
... but it's not abnormal, that all these classical liberal revolutionairy types were wealthy rich people. They just pushed over aristocracy to place themselves in the center of power. And just like the aristocrats gave the rest of poppulation the middlefinger, so do a lot of these merchant 18th century figures. Most people snapped out of it in the 20th century, but @redredred just belongs to a cult of traditionalists that believe 18th century writers were godsend.
Those kinds of blocks in the UK are often very hard to heat and suffer from damp/mould as a result, it's horrible having crap housing even if it is a roof over your head.
Having seen the way Greenfell tower burned I'd really not want to live in any UK tower block.
@AntisocialTroll I read that chav means something like a young delinquent in English. But I really think it means something like a child or a boy in Romani, therefore a Romani underage kid involved in criminal activity. It has a racist undertone. Chavale/chavore are children in Romani.
When I was a kid, chavo meant something like Chad in English or molodetz in Russian. A guy who has swag or momentarily accomplished something. At the time I didn't know the origin of the word. I wonder if kids still use it nowadays.
@AntisocialTroll I definitely agree that conditions such as you describe shouldn't be foisted on anyone, even if they can't afford decent housing. We need to establish better standards as to what qualifies as bare minimum housing for humans.
@MethDozer On a global scale? Just think it's important, considering the opportunities that it provides. And that people that actually want, can actually learn something from it. Those people that can push themselves, to actually look up a good source from time to time.
@Kwek00 I think the measure of a civilization should be in how much they try to expand that list.
I fully agree there should be some degree of luxury rewarded for contributing to the productivity of society. But I feel productivity of society is being wasted if it is not improving the lives of everyone.
@Gloomy housing is a right that cannot be speculated on by capital if people are to be housed. Everywhere that the free market touched housing we find suffering and homelessness. Mega landlords currently threaten even the middle class because we allowed landlords, social parasites to exist. Miguel says it clearly and he's an expert. https://youtu.be/qIpCtiGUusY.
@JohnnySpot For many that is true. Landlords who own rental homes sometimes spend more in repairing damages after a non-paying tenant moves out than whatever money they got when they were paying. I lived in a little rent house, moved out & moved into an all-bills paid apartment. I took care of that rent house cleaning up things that needed, a flooded cellar, a storage room full of junk left by the previous tenant, trimmed badly overgrown hedges, trimmed up the rose bushes, kept it mowed, cleaned the carpets, etc. After I moved out a young man rented the home. He went to Dallas for the weekend and ended up staying over a week, had left large dogs inside of the house. He moved out & the owner had to pull up all the carpeting and discard it while wearing a mask, it was filthy. Had to paint everything to get rid of the stench etc. That tenant had lived there less than 6 months and caused a huge amount of damage.
@specman oh my God what about those companies who are constantly trying to buy people's houses? I look at those things and think, yeah then where am I going to live? I mean you know those Pricks are probably low ballers anyway
I am not for free housing. Money from taxpayers would fund it. How would it be fair when someone that doesn’t contribute to the workforce having other’s pay for your “so called right “
@specman I think even in America there are hardworking people who are not always paid the the full and fair value of their labour.
I have never blamed a 'system' for society's ills. I am a student of economics and my only concern is to make sure that economies operate efficiently and serve the needs of all citizens. The largely privatised housing market as it currently operates in most advanced economies clearly is not working efficiently. This is evidenced by record levels of homelessness and reduced social mobility owing to people not being able to afford to live close to their place of work.
The problem is that if you just give people something, they won't take care of it. I mean look at how people conduct themselves in the projects and basically destroy the places.
They figure they do not own it so why take care of it?
@CestManan No because I grew up in a neighbourhood quite similar to a ghetto in poverty. I'm Romani and I beg you to stop using "chavs" and I have been around "lower class" people some of whom have broken the law but mostly just people who do their best to get by. I still live in a neighbourhood like that and am sick and tired of snobs talking down and just simply being ignorant. People sometimes accuse me of being a criminal simply because i'm "gypsy" so quit assuming stuff.
Why the fuck do you think it's cause I have a crush on someone or some shit?
@CestManan I'm not even defending crime in general I am saying the segregation, stigma and overall societal situation furthers crime not public housing initiatives.
@Gloomy by "empty talking points" you mean schooling brain dead leftists that there's no such thing as a free lunch, aka your socialist utopia? LOL. The ideology has been so successful over the years... consistently causing misery and death. Keep up the delusion!
@BizSuitStacy Lunch for school kids that would be subsidized by taxes or income from state run enterprises is not utopic and certainly better than using peoples money to fund the military industrial complex or use it to bail out companies. Big companies already have socialised the losses but privatised the profits.
You would probably even look at the accomplishments of european labour parties and call it communism.
@SW-User those are cool but they are problematic. The main issue with them is they are very,very often heavily polluted from their prior use. Especially the cheaper ones. Also when all is said and done they aren't much cheaper than any other typical tiny home built from scratch.
I was looking heavily into them years ago.
SW-User
@MethDozer thanks for your response 20 years later ppffft
@ExperienceDLT Americans spend 2.1 billion annually to remove the homeless. We can all be housed permanently for less than that. Of course you care deeply about me. And we homeless are begining to understand you! We don't like it, you're not pretty, but we have to look.
@ExperienceDLT I hope you meet some who don't fit your picture. Maybe watch a bit less of the so-called news? Sadly the presence of mutually-caring billions is obscured by the others because if you don't care, you can use any & all means of gaining whatever dominance and attention you crave.
The redredred guy proves that libertarianism especially right leaning libertarianism, is selfish and hyper individualistic.
Their core views are social darwinism and the survival of the social fittest. They defend the genocide of indigenous people around the world including the native Americans.
@Really Sets of thoughts and ideologies have names who tend to end with an -ism Imagine we would need to explain someones exact ideology every time we bring it up... that's why there are labels .. to make communication and understanding easier
@Gloomy [quote]Sets of thoughts and ideologies have names[/quote]They don't really[i] have[/i] names. People [i]give them[/i] names. I suggest using labels instead of explaining ideas can do as much to degrade communication as to enhance it. I'll go so far as to say sometimes - or often, in the case of politics - the very people using labels aren't sure what they mean by them. - Let alone what different meanings others will ascribe.
@Gloomy I find it terribly unhealthy and mind crushing as opposed to a house with a garden. If I didn't have woods nearby that I can get lost in without meeting anyone I feel like I would go insane.
@CrazyMusicLover But with parks near and trees planted around it isn't that bad also community gardens would be great.
I love getting lost in the woods but that's also a reason why I support housing like this. It can fit more people so we don't have to destroy environment for large mansions or single family houses.
I think that would only further compromise our collective sustainability.
I've petitioned for this for decades. I don't think it's the answer.
I think private/personal shelter is a solution, but I don't think letting people settle long-term will help them progress. There need to be different classes of housing.
Obv. the biologically compromised need this. This is a necessity for them. They should be entitled to stability and comfort, and afforded equity.
The rest of us need to learn how to push ourselves harder. GIve me a hotel room for 3 months, then give me another hotel room for 3. Let me pay 30% of my income, but don't let me stay, settle, collect moss.
Sometimes we want to avoid the world, because we can't find the light switch within ourselves.
Packing, organising, cleaning, moving every 3 mos. subtly builds a healthy habit/routine of self-care that might not otherwise be engaged.
I think Tiny Houses would just create more urban sprawl. I love them more than traditional houses, but I think nodal/skyscraper systems are a better solution.
@Gloomy Another great thing about giving ppl hotel rooms instead of apartments, is the possibility of a complimentary breakfast to further help them along in their already difficult lives. It also lends greater opportunity for community, and for people to connect over breakfast.
Some people need that extra love, until they can better love themselves.
It also discourages private buyers from rigging the market into collapse.
@SnailTeeth It's been repeatedly demonstrated that people actually become more productive and contribute more when they aren't in a desperate state of existence.
Dividends in Alaska for example has led to a stark increase in minimum wage and part time worker participation in the state. It isn't despair and need that drives people to work and contribute more. It's the satisfaction of their work actually moving them somewhere instead of grinding away to stay in the same place or immediately adjacent to it.
If I can collect welfare and have my most basic needs barely met or I can go work at a minimum wage job and have those needs barely met. Why would I go to work? Now if I can have some help for those basic needs as a garuntee whether I work or not, then I will go take that minimum wage job and be happy with it because though low paying, it is gaininh me something. It brings me to a better place.
Think of the environmental hazards from such an endeavor. The living trees and plants which produce oxygen that would be destroyed. The carbon emissions into the atmosphere during construction would be catastrophic. Water pollution. Animal cruelty. Why do you hate the environment?
@Gloomy i don't understand your point. The best thong being done in some cities, is tearing down the old high rises, replacing them with lower density homes and of course, planting trees and grass.
Soviet style comblocks but with more appealing architecture, the original idea was to drive focus on the community living in the buildings instead of aesthetics. Like BW photography draws attention to the subject because you're not distracted by bright colours. The problem is in the case of architecture and community it doesn't really work that way. We have learned since colour actually has psychological impacts....or lack there of.
Also lose the reinforced concrete. The way concrete degrades causes all kinds of problems and makes repairs as you go next to impossible.
Besides that soviet blocks were very effective.
American/Canadian suburbs are literally food deserts. If you don't have a car to get to the city you can literally starve to death in the burbs.
Also traffic from suburbs to cities cause commutes which result in stress, road rage etc and actually has negatively impacted the American life expectancy.
I agree, along with food, wine, abortions, clean air & water, medical insurance, green grass, welfare, happy marriages, sunny weather, marijuana, and big screen TVs.
In the US, Republicans don't want to pay for this and Democrats don't want to force people into housing. That being said, if free housing was available, many homeless people would use it. There are also many people stuck in cheap motels who can't afford apartments and would also take advantage of this if it were available.
Housing projects in the past were plagued with gang activity, drugs, and poor maintenance, so those problems would have to be solved.
And with modern soundproofing too people can do their jam- one set of residents can play 'aiwe ma zenya mulamu' to welcome family at 3am and if I wasn't married and lived by myself boring old me could watch a documentary or book and be asleep by 9:45-10 and be none the wiser 🤪
@BritishFailedAesthetic we're having a party instead of housing the middle class next time. You can fight around in the road and we'll all laugh and hoot it up! It's your turn!
In my area, two tiny home villages have recently been opened up to the homeless in our area. They're not much, but they're a free home to those who need one. I wish other communities out there would do the same. Even if it may come with its own share of problems with those who bring drugs and other trouble, no one should have to be homeless...
i dont think multi-tenant buildings are a good idea, i think tiny houses are a better solution. i know they take up more space but if you knew how unsanitarily some people live... ive seen some disgusting stuff in my life
Government has a function there. Human rights imply government responsibilities. Privatized housing is obviously wrong. Too bad about the twisted minds.
@MarineBob It was a start. I would really support the federal government mandating the states to have universal health care....or make medicare available to everyone....
yeah pretty much but housing isn't enough. in the past we had mental health treatment for people who needed it. now we just let them live in the subway station.
Who will pay the cost then you will have to feed them and since it is a pure housing and feeding where will they get jobs or are they to live and eat free forever.
@dale74 You think people only get jobs when the roof over their head is in danger?
Also I rather have money flow to support lets say homeless people than into the military industrial complex. Americans can't even fathom measures that social democracies already have taken without much issues and it's sad.
@MaBalzEsHari They meant public housing is not properly working, squats are being torn down instead of turning them into homes and homeless people that try to build themselves even the smallest tent community get violently removed.
@MartinTheFirst we spend more displacing the homeless each year than it costs to house us all permanently. Americans value violence and they're willing to inflict pain but not be a socialist democracy. No way to tolerate that. We Will be oppressed and killed into it, of course!!! America's first.
@Darksideinthenight2 Nothing you have said is remotely relevant to the discussion or even remotely on topic. You are still desperately trying to pretend you not even bothering to find out what is being discussed is actually secretly clever.
