Free will simply means we can make our own choices, who argues with that? Evil simply means accrding to Merriam Webster -Definition of evil (Entry 1 of 3) 1a: morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED an evil impulse b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation 2aarchaic : INFERIOR b: causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE an evil odor c: DISAGREEABLE woke late and in an evil temper 3a: causing harm : PERNICIOUS the evil institution of slavery b: marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY
I dont think anyone can disagree with this?
So that leaves us with whether or not you believe there is a God and also a devil?
Westers again defines Devil as: devil noun Save Word To save this word, you'll need to log in.
Log In dev·il | \ ˈde-vᵊl , dialectal ˈdi- \ Definition of devil (Entry 1 of 2) 1often capitalized : the personal supreme spirit of evil often represented in Christian belief as the tempter of humankind, the leader of all apostate angels, and the ruler of hell —usually used with the —often used as an interjection, an intensive, or a generalized term of abuse what the devil is this? the devil you say! 2: an evil spirit : DEMON 3a: an extremely wicked person : FIEND barchaic : a great evil 4: a person of notable energy, reckless
So I guess we can argue this till the cows come home, and still not agree, Woe to you of unbelief, I just hope for your sakes that the God that created you gets to you somehow, while you still have your thiking about you, so that you can choose to acknowledge him as the God of the universe and forget your folly, turn from your wicked ways and admit you need him.
@Silverwings Your first sentence is flawed. Scientists of many types would argue that it is easy to demonstrate that actions are predetermined. But even if actions are random, that still does not lead to free will.
Here are the flaws in your flow chart. Who ever said it was God’s responsibility to destroy evil? It is never said, in the King James version of the bible, that God is to destroy evil. Even in the Lord’s prayer it never says get rid of evil for us but to deliver us from evil. Meaning evil will be there. Who’s to say if there is a God that it’s even the purpose of God to prevent evil? Also, if you want to use logic as your basis of whether or not something you can’t see or quantify outside of ones own faith, logic isn’t what you should be using. However, scientifically there is the potential of a all knowing and all powerful being. As the universe is undefinable in size, we’ll say infinite, then that means there’s the potential for anything to exist or be possible. To contradict this is to say you know everything and therefore are a god and have just proven yourself wrong. The only issue is, this also means there’s the possibility of no god existing and even possible that we don’t truly exist and are the product of someone else’s mind. I’m not trying to prove there is or isn’t a God. I’m just saying that to try and determine whether or not a being that would, not just have the ability to control everything here, but in all the universe and therefore would be significantly more intelligent than someone that’s decided to take up a crusade of whether or not God exists on a platform such as this, is idiotic. If a God existed and evil still existed, then there must be a reason for it. Like if we could predict crime would it be justifiable to arrest someone for a murder they have yet to commit? It’s like a parent that knows the stupid decision their kid is going to make, sometimes you have to let them make it. See if they sink or swim. However, I bet if it were possible to literally see everything that exists in the universe, I’m not even talking about seeing the stars we see at night. I mean really see it, you probably would think that there was something more. But who really knows. Maybe you’d see it all and want to never have existed.
@Emosaur that is a human description. We’re not talking about humans. We’re talking about a god. How do we know that by letting evil, to an extent, into life that it isn’t good in the long run? We don’t. If we’re talking about God then inherently we have to talk about what comes after. If there is a life after death than even death is a step towards something else. Meaning that even if there’s an evil act that takes our life this could lead to something good later. Therefore, if God or even a god exists you can’t know how they think or operate because the thinking of such a being would be on a level you can’t even comprehend so to use terms like evil and good become moot because maybe on their level it’s completely different.
@Emosaur Wow , pretty stupid to assume I don’t know what i’m talking about since you are a push button big banger big banging away into multiverses and other imaginary objects even when data contradicts it. Wait you know so little in your field you don’t even know where to find the new data. Sources??? 🤣🤣🤣 You have none for your made up fairy tales of expansion and please don’t refer to red shift. That is where they screwed up in 20th century science!
Then why didn’t he is where you end up. The answer is simple. He wanted to give you the freedom to choose where you spend eternity. God doesn’t push, he leads. It’s there. Eternal life. Do you want it?
@Evegpt [quote]God could have created everything to go off without a hitch.[/quote] So you're saying your god deliberately screwed thing up. Why should anyone trust it when it does stupid things like that?
@Evegpt [quote]I’ve been a Christian since 1980 and that has not put one restriction on anything I want to do[/quote] You're under the yoke of christianity but you're to blinded by faith to see that. Trust me, I know what it's like, I was under that same yoke before I became an Atheist. I was able to break free, you can too if you try. Good luck.
@Evegpt [quote]God says you are a sinner and need to repent.[/quote] Your god doesn't say anything. [b]You[/b] are accusing us of being sinners but blaming your god because you don't want to take responsibility for your own actions.
I'm not answerable to figments of your imagination.
This is almost a year old so not sure why it's appeared in my SW feed, but this flow chart is, at a charitable best, misrepresentative.
Firstly, we're working on the assumption that evil exists in the first place, which some philosophers (to say nothing of some contemporary progressive types who insist absolutely everything is relative!), might object to.
But more fundamentally, it misses the point that God works his will through all things, including things which seems pretty calamitous for individuals, or indeed mankind as a whole. (If you read the Bible, this actually happens again and again, where people do unspeakably awful things, but through other peoples responses, and God's response, to that, better things happen in the end).
Evil (however this chart is defining it, which is unclear!), is necessary. For a start it is logically impossible to have 'free will' without potential negative consequences.
God moreover made the universe because he wanted to share it. God was quite content, perfect, blessed, eternal, and merrily existing just on his own, needing absolutely nothing material or spiritual to make his existence even more perfect.
But the single thing a perfect being cannot do on his own, is to share in that blessed existence with someone or something else that understands and appreciates it.
And that's where we come in. And we cannot understand and appreciate the blessedness of living with God, without also being capable of choosing not to. Free will and the possibility of evil are needed.
Of course you might not agree with this view, and not believe in God anyway, but that's a different issue I think.
@Aliveshock Both work. The universe can be observed expanding. Evolution also can be observed in nature and in the laboratory. Show me something in your Bronze Age book, that the goat rapist got right in Genesis.
@newjaninev2 What a stupid thing to say. First of all you have no idea what the Bible says, and secondly you're wrong, but most importantly it doesn't matter because anything right you would call science and anything wrong you would assume (probably incorrectly) was from the Bible.
Actually it is more logical to believe that God created all than the Big Bang or random chance or whatever the worldly popular theory of the moment. But logic? God doesn’t care about your logic. He cares about your heart. Logic is not how you reach him. A sincere desire to know the truth is the way to God.
@Emosaur Well I wish you knew half as much about God and the Bible as you think you do so we could at least have a reasonably interesting discussion about it. There's the real fallacy. Wish in one hand . . . .
@Emosaur [quote] I know more about those than any Christian, but okay.[/quote]
As unimpressive as that may be, I doubt it nevertheless.
SW-User
This chart is so disconnected from reality... and not just God's reality, and so misses the actual premises of God... that it's actually not informative even for debate purposes.
@Sharon Thank you . I will. I'll do my best to ignore nut job Atheist in future with flow charts on religion and those who think the bible is the fulcrum of all Christian belief. They are so ignorant and misinformed . The joke is on them.
Here is a summary of why there is evil in the world, and other questions about God. This is my understanding after studying the Bible for over 40 years!
1. [b]Why is there evil in the world?[/b] Because God created angelic beings and human beings with a choice to love or hate. God has rules to love and not be sinful or selfish. He has consequences for sin. There is no sin in heaven at all. Satan rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven and he is trying to win people for himself and he is a destroyer of life and deceives people into doing evil. Adam and Eve were deceived by him because he is a liar, so they were banned from paradise forever and so are their childrens children. Why are there starving children, murder, famines, earthquakes, fires, and animals starving? Because God cursed the entire creation when we sinned. And He has laws in the universe that are followed.
2.[b] What is Gods plan for humanity? [/b]His plan is to destroy this sinful world and make a new heaven and a new earth where there are no tears. Jesus, Gods Son, came to save us so we can experience this new heaven when we die Because He loves us! Because all humans have sinned, Jesus humbled himself and came down from heaven, came to us as a baby, and lived a sinless life, proved he can raise people from the dead, and died on a cross, and was raised himself the third day. All who believe in him will be saved from the wrath to come. When the gospel has gone out to the whole world that's the end.
3[b].Did God know that Satan and humans would sin when he made them?[/b] Yes he had a plan to win people for himself to live in heaven with him. He wants us to tell people about his salvation plan to get to heaven when we die.
4. [b]Does God hear all prayers[/b]? NO he does not! We are banned from his presence. He is very clear in Romans and other verses he does not hear the ungodly's prayers, only the Godly's prayers.
5. [b]How do we get God to hear our prayers?[/b] We repent our sins, and believe in Jesus who died for humanities sins. Then the Holy Spirit comes into your heart and you are saved. Then he hears your prayers. But he wont answer them unless you have faith and are obedient to his word. If you have prayers that are unanswered it is because either you are not obedient, or you do not have enough faith, or God is teaching you something, or he has a better plan for you. We should always pray for Gods will in our prayers because he knows best. Often we grow through hard times. Thank God for the hard times too!
6. [b]Why does God not kill Satan now? Or destroy all evil now?[/b] God is soon going to burn up the world and ALL evil, but he is waiting for the gospel to go out to the whole world and people to repent and be saved first. He is watching who is doing his will loving people to christ. Then Jesus will come back and all saved will go to heaven and the ungodly judged by Jesus for every evil thought and deed.
7. [b]How does God want us to live?[/b] He wants us to love God and treat people the way we want to be treated ourselves. He wants us to be thankful for everything!
8. [b]How to handle it if someone hurts us?[/b] Jesus says to love our enemies, and pray for those who despitefully use us! But we should not yolk together with unbelievers.
9. [b]Is the Bible accurate?[/b] Yes! It has been proven accurate. Some people say it has errors but they have misunderstood those verses. The Bible is the most respected history Book by historiens than any other book at universities.
10. [b]How do I become successful in life[/b]? If you follow the Bible to love God, and people, and give first to him in money and time you will be successful, it is Gods promise!
I hope and pray you will heed Gods word in the Bible!
You've got it all wrong ,evil entered the world when Adam and Eve sinned. Then who or what made the earth and the universe?? The universe had a a beginning ,so something set it in motion. The covid disease came from man disobeying God ,it says do not eat bat
@RemovedUsername676164 that's just because we evolved under those conditions. There could easily be life that survives a different atmosphere. We're tardigrades.
@RemovedUsername676164 [quote]so nothing created everything?[/quote] That's a creationist idea. Not one I accept.
[quote]Yes there is a known beginning,and the universe is still expanding.[/quote] Not quite, there is a known beginning of [b]spacetime[/b]. That was when the quantum singularity went through a period of "inflation" and then continued expanding.
[quote]Someone put the earth in the precise spot to be the perfect distance from the sun [/quote] So where did that "someone" come from? Life on Earth, as we know it, evolved to fit the environment. Different forms of life would have evolved if the environment were different. For example, radiophiles and extremephiles live in conditions that would be lethal to most other organisms. At a very simple level, even fish thrive in an environment that often proves fatal to humans and other land animals. Also there are billions of other planets that are totally unsuitable for us to live. What is their purpose?
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts
Before you I will go, And the hills I will level.
for my people
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
for my people
Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles
@Ingwe Society today is more complex and "Man" has evolved to be more Complex. My TV cable box does not decide what to record for my entertainment. I do. The people at Google or the cable company may offer me things based on what they have learned about me. But that is to sell me more "Stuff". They are not god. If god created us, then why create us with the ability to question, unless we were meant to challenge?😷
@Silverwings [quote]t makes me sad that the enemy has blinded your eyes to the truth, [/quote] It makes me sad that religions have blinded so many to the truth, discouraging them from even seeking it. :(
@Emosaur Religious zealots have great difficulty separating fact from fiction, often transposing the two. It's quite common for them to present myths as proven facts.
@Straylight [quote]The argument goes like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.' `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.[/quote]
The simple reality is that God is nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy. God exists for those who believe BECAUSE they believe. God does not exist for those who don't believe. Neither side will ever convince the other to switch. That's all there is to it.
@Bushmanoz Many are leaving the religions because they now have access to so much more information. Deep seated belief in religions was primarily due to ignorance, they believed in what they were told because they didn't know any better.
@RedBaron well I've seen religious people convinced by common sense and questioning the thing that make no sense give up their religion. The biggest hurdle a lot of people seem to have for giving up their beliefs is the backlash they will get from their families who brought them up on it...so yeah. It happens and your argument is invalid
@Silverwings [quote]What is the purpose of our existance?[/quote] Your question is a non-sequitur. You could just as well ask [i]"If The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, Why do we? What is the purpose of our existance?"[/i] Why does there have to be a purpose?
@Silverwings [quote]What is the purpose of our existance?[/quote]
Does it matter? None of the people that walk around come into excistence with a manual that tells them what to do or where to go too. It's this incrediblible longing for purpose that makes people fantasize and come up with all sorts of reasons and myths to back them up. Something to fill the void, that however doesn't mean that what they come up with is real, it's just fantasize born out of sadness, despair, arrogance, loneliness, ... and everything else people are struggling with. They might seem comforting at first, but before you know it you are stoning people and chopping off heads in the hope of protecting a fantasy that people just got caught up in to furfill their own selfish needs.
@Silverwings Or course, true science is based on observing the facts. Unfortunately some people here dishonestly try to pass fiction off as "true science" to deceive the gullible.
LMBO. This is evidence that there is a god and that he has a sense of humor.
1. You flow chart makes assumption after assumption starting with the idea free will could be controllable by outside forces and still be free will.
2. You put a lot of effort into trying to show why those with faith are wrong, yet refuse to consider that we are not capable of understanding a being who can create life and the environment to sustain that life.
3. Logically you have no proof that God does not exist, which means it still comes down to a matter of faith, there is a supreme being or there isn't. I choose to believe that all of the beauty and miracles of this world and universe are not a cosmic accident.
@JBird [quote]My fiance is Christian, he knows I am not into Christianity anymore. He's still with me. Maybe he's not uptight like other Christians[/quote]
If course he is. I really don't think those uptight people are as such because they're Christian. Just because they're uptight. Remember every group has annoying members.
[quote]So where was God for them[/quote]
For all mankind you mean? As I said, everyone suffers in life. Some would say it's all about what happens after this life. Others might say God is always with them, they just have to embrace him. Really I don't think either matters. Just try live your life as good as you can and hope that it will result in less suffering along the way.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote] Wanna know a secret? I don't care if you are just a little green snot on a doorknob [/quote] Yeah, but your previous comments didn't seem like you didn't care. 🤣🤣🤣
[quote] Your lack of intellect doesn't bother me a whit. [/quote] Maybe because you lack intellect to understand what's intellect?
[quote] However you seem to be awful worked up proclaiming your evangelical belief. [/quote]
How's being atheist link to 'evangelical belief'? You continue to amuse me. 😁
@Qwerty14 [quote]@hippyjoe1955 @Kwek00 Jesus could turn a meal for 4 into a feast for several thousand. So maybe Joe just needs to try harder lol[/quote]
God proves Himself to me every day. I don’t need tangible proof that He’s there because I have faith that He is. I find no other reason that I’m alive aside from Him.
When I was on the farm we would occasionally move the animals from one pasture to another or one pen to another. It was stressful for the animals but it was always for the better. I am sure that had the animal had the logic of Emosaur they would have declared the humans evil. However it was not evil it was simply moving them to a different pen or pasture where they would be happier with more room and more fresh food. It is the same with God moving us out of this life. It may seem cruel and evil but we quickly out grow our present circumstances. Could you ever imagine spending eternity as a human being with all of the lusts and hurts and needs that would last forever?
@Budwick [quote]Your eternity is gonna suck.[/quote] That's just wishful thinking. I'd like to know how you're going to explain yourself to Odin at the doors to Valhalla. That will be quite amusing to watch. :)
If you use logic and reason with your self, you will come to realize that someone much greater than you or I , hung the stars in the sky, and developed their deisgns, that remain constant year after year, century after century. That someone who is greater than I also put boundaries on the oceans, enabled the fish to swim and the birds to fly, created the delicate eco system, and caused it to sustain itself, created the human body and mind, that in itself is a marvelous creation, brought forth life, and caused it to flourish, created the sun to light the day and the moon to light the night. Created the 4 seasons of the year, so that they could bring about perpetuity, gave man the knowledge to do great things, increased his knowledge exponentially, yet with all of that man continues to rebel against his creator.
@Emosaur 1. I'm aware of how Antitheists use it. Hence why I did the same for you.
2. I'll break it down:
[b]Me:[/b] OT isn't as valid as the NT [b]You:[/b] Why it is still included? [b]Me:[/b] The bible is just a collection of scripture [b]You:[/b] Why contain a book that no longer applies today? [b]Me:[/b] Because of its historical account [b]You:[/b] I thought the OT wasn't as valid as the NT?
At this point I'm thinking you're nutty because you've caused a circular discussion. You can now just read my first answer and repeat. That's why I said you've lost it.
Its not about you! it’s about Gods Glory! God is the hero and the producer of the movie! We are just a side show! He is the Star! He has warned us that the wages of sin is death but we still sin, All of us our flawed even all our kids and we are all doomed to certain spiritual death! In heaven there is no sin at all! We can’t get in! But God has provided a way to get in! We are still complaining idiots like two year olds throwing a tantrum because we want a more understanding god where we don’t have to apologize for sinning and being selfish! But he is patient with us and so loving! He saves us from ourselves and takes our sins on his own shoulders to save us from our just destruction! He is amazing and I love him! “How can we escape if we neglect such a great salvation” he warned!
Choosing to believe in the Triune God has nothing to do with logic or philosophy, it has everything to do with the state of your spiritual "heart", along and most importantly choosing to remain faithful! This does not mean after this takes place in one's life that they are 'perfect' or are going to be 'perfect' in this world! It only means that he or she is choosing to spiritually pursue a lifestyle that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit deem satisfactory!
@Emosaur You make a post that requests debate, i convey how three quarters of the world's population feels, which I do very logically and with a great amount of intelligence! Now, you call me names, are very confusing in which you communicate and I get fed up with your belittlement that shows your lack of understand of the topic much more any type of understanding of all topics! So I try to distance myself from your habitual pattern of reacting uneducated: '@Emosaur I really don't care what your opinion might be, have fun!' You respond: "@TheeOriginalAmazingsEXLover Okie, have fun with your imaginary friend!" I was trying to explain to an "educated individual" whom is you, rightttt, but when you don't notice your own pompous inhibitions that puts almost everyone! I, guess, will be like everyone else, genetic and generalize or be impersonable or not care and i don't care; you do you!
Very, very interesting!!! However...you have the burden of proof! Black and white facts to back up whatever you may believe!!! Lol! Whether you are a believer or not...you must back it up with proof! That’s why I take the hardest road and say,” you know, I just don’t know for sure absolutely!” Also...books that are written by man (even if they were influenced by a higher power and the like do not count!)
@spjennifer He and all like him are just basically inserting their unbelief trying to muddy the waters. Belief came first, and it will have the last say.
@Silverwings [quote]just basically inserting their unbelief [/quote] Atheisim is simply a matter of not believing in a god for which there is no real evidence. Christians are atheist in respect of all gods except one. Atheists just apply the same standards of proof to all gods equally.
@JBird [quote]why God didn't destroy Satan?[/quote]What? Destroy the best friend he's ever had? Who could he blame for his plan going wrong if he didn't have Satan as a scapegoat?
Ah yes, the atheist argument. Let me add my 2 cents: We are all created by an architect of the universe, in the architects image. Being our creator, the architect can do that ever it wants to us, for whatever reason it wants, whenever it wants. The existence of evil proves there is an architect.
"What does it mean that the Word of God will not return void?"
Answer: Isaiah 55:10–11 says, “As the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, . . . So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void” (KJV). The word void means “empty.” The remainder of verse 11 explains what it means to “not return void,” saying that God’s Word “will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”
Rain and snow are part of a cyclical water process. Precipitation comes upon the earth, drains into the land, and produces great benefit in the growth of crops, the refreshment of souls, and the sustaining of life. Rain and snow come from above and do not return back above without accomplishing their purpose. God compares His Word to the rain and snow because, like the precipitation, God’s Word always fulfills His good purposes.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we can know that He has an intention for His Word. God’s Word is from above. He “breathed out” His words to us, and they were recorded in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16). Every word He gave humanity is purposeful and was given for a reason. Like the rain and snow, God’s words bring forth life (John 6:63) and produce good fruit in our lives. Through His Word, we know that God loves us and that Jesus died to free us from sin and death; we also learn how to live in light of those truths.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we are encouraged to abide in His Word, allowing it to absorb into our lives, soaking it up as the ground soaks up the rain and snow. The truth will not return void as our hearts are changed. God’s Word rebukes us and corrects us when we are wrong, and it trains us in godly living (2 Timothy 3:16–17). His Word is a light guiding us in this dark world (Psalm 119:105). It is relevant to every pressing and practical problem. God’s Word will always accomplish what He desires, whether it is teaching, correcting, training, leading us to Him, revealing our sin, or some other good and profitable end.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we understand that God is sovereign. The promise is that God’s Word will accomplish what He wants it to, not necessarily what we want it to. We may share the Word with the purpose of changing someone’s mind—and the person’s mind doesn’t change. Was God’s Word void? No, but our personal goals may have been different from God’s. Like the wind that “blows wherever it pleases,” the Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways (John 3:8). And God may use His Word in surprising ways, at surprising times, and in surprising people. We can’t predict exactly how God will use His Word any more than meteorologists can predict with certitude the rainfall and snowfall.
God’s Word will not return void. It is too powerful. When God said, “Let there be light,” the immediate result was that “there was light” (Genesis 1:3). When Jesus said, “Peace! Be still!” the wind ceased and the sea calmed (Mark 4:39). God’s Word will always prosper; God will succeed, and those who receive His Word will be overcomers as well (1 John 5:4).
@Silverwings That is so beautiful and true! I have witnessed and said the word of God 30 years ago to many people who are now Christians so I know iGod fulfills it’s purpose!🌷
