LMBO. This is evidence that there is a god and that he has a sense of humor.
1. You flow chart makes assumption after assumption starting with the idea free will could be controllable by outside forces and still be free will.
2. You put a lot of effort into trying to show why those with faith are wrong, yet refuse to consider that we are not capable of understanding a being who can create life and the environment to sustain that life.
3. Logically you have no proof that God does not exist, which means it still comes down to a matter of faith, there is a supreme being or there isn't. I choose to believe that all of the beauty and miracles of this world and universe are not a cosmic accident.
My fiance is Christian, he knows I am not into Christianity anymore. He's still with me. Maybe he's not uptight like other Christians
If course he is. I really don't think those uptight people are as such because they're Christian. Just because they're uptight. Remember every group has annoying members.
So where was God for them
For all mankind you mean? As I said, everyone suffers in life. Some would say it's all about what happens after this life. Others might say God is always with them, they just have to embrace him. Really I don't think either matters. Just try live your life as good as you can and hope that it will result in less suffering along the way.
God proves Himself to me every day. I don’t need tangible proof that He’s there because I have faith that He is. I find no other reason that I’m alive aside from Him.
When I was on the farm we would occasionally move the animals from one pasture to another or one pen to another. It was stressful for the animals but it was always for the better. I am sure that had the animal had the logic of Emosaur they would have declared the humans evil. However it was not evil it was simply moving them to a different pen or pasture where they would be happier with more room and more fresh food. It is the same with God moving us out of this life. It may seem cruel and evil but we quickly out grow our present circumstances. Could you ever imagine spending eternity as a human being with all of the lusts and hurts and needs that would last forever?
That's just wishful thinking. I'd like to know how you're going to explain yourself to Odin at the doors to Valhalla. That will be quite amusing to watch. :)
If you use logic and reason with your self, you will come to realize that someone much greater than you or I , hung the stars in the sky, and developed their deisgns, that remain constant year after year, century after century. That someone who is greater than I also put boundaries on the oceans, enabled the fish to swim and the birds to fly, created the delicate eco system, and caused it to sustain itself, created the human body and mind, that in itself is a marvelous creation, brought forth life, and caused it to flourish, created the sun to light the day and the moon to light the night. Created the 4 seasons of the year, so that they could bring about perpetuity, gave man the knowledge to do great things, increased his knowledge exponentially, yet with all of that man continues to rebel against his creator.
@Emosaur 1. I'm aware of how Antitheists use it. Hence why I did the same for you.
2. I'll break it down:
Me: OT isn't as valid as the NT You: Why it is still included? Me: The bible is just a collection of scripture You: Why contain a book that no longer applies today? Me: Because of its historical account You: I thought the OT wasn't as valid as the NT?
At this point I'm thinking you're nutty because you've caused a circular discussion. You can now just read my first answer and repeat. That's why I said you've lost it.
Its not about you! it’s about Gods Glory! God is the hero and the producer of the movie! We are just a side show! He is the Star! He has warned us that the wages of sin is death but we still sin, All of us our flawed even all our kids and we are all doomed to certain spiritual death! In heaven there is no sin at all! We can’t get in! But God has provided a way to get in! We are still complaining idiots like two year olds throwing a tantrum because we want a more understanding god where we don’t have to apologize for sinning and being selfish! But he is patient with us and so loving! He saves us from ourselves and takes our sins on his own shoulders to save us from our just destruction! He is amazing and I love him! “How can we escape if we neglect such a great salvation” he warned!
Choosing to believe in the Triune God has nothing to do with logic or philosophy, it has everything to do with the state of your spiritual "heart", along and most importantly choosing to remain faithful! This does not mean after this takes place in one's life that they are 'perfect' or are going to be 'perfect' in this world! It only means that he or she is choosing to spiritually pursue a lifestyle that God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit deem satisfactory!
@Emosaur You make a post that requests debate, i convey how three quarters of the world's population feels, which I do very logically and with a great amount of intelligence! Now, you call me names, are very confusing in which you communicate and I get fed up with your belittlement that shows your lack of understand of the topic much more any type of understanding of all topics! So I try to distance myself from your habitual pattern of reacting uneducated: '@Emosaur I really don't care what your opinion might be, have fun!' You respond: "@TheeOriginalAmazingsEXLover Okie, have fun with your imaginary friend!" I was trying to explain to an "educated individual" whom is you, rightttt, but when you don't notice your own pompous inhibitions that puts almost everyone! I, guess, will be like everyone else, genetic and generalize or be impersonable or not care and i don't care; you do you!
Free will simply means we can make our own choices, who argues with that? Evil simply means accrding to Merriam Webster -Definition of evil (Entry 1 of 3) 1a: morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED an evil impulse b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct a person of evil reputation 2aarchaic : INFERIOR b: causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE an evil odor c: DISAGREEABLE woke late and in an evil temper 3a: causing harm : PERNICIOUS the evil institution of slavery b: marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY
I dont think anyone can disagree with this?
So that leaves us with whether or not you believe there is a God and also a devil?
Westers again defines Devil as: devil noun Save Word To save this word, you'll need to log in.
Log In dev·il | \ ˈde-vᵊl , dialectal ˈdi- \ Definition of devil (Entry 1 of 2) 1often capitalized : the personal supreme spirit of evil often represented in Christian belief as the tempter of humankind, the leader of all apostate angels, and the ruler of hell —usually used with the —often used as an interjection, an intensive, or a generalized term of abuse what the devil is this? the devil you say! 2: an evil spirit : DEMON 3a: an extremely wicked person : FIEND barchaic : a great evil 4: a person of notable energy, reckless
So I guess we can argue this till the cows come home, and still not agree, Woe to you of unbelief, I just hope for your sakes that the God that created you gets to you somehow, while you still have your thiking about you, so that you can choose to acknowledge him as the God of the universe and forget your folly, turn from your wicked ways and admit you need him.
@Silverwings Your first sentence is flawed. Scientists of many types would argue that it is easy to demonstrate that actions are predetermined. But even if actions are random, that still does not lead to free will.
Very, very interesting!!! However...you have the burden of proof! Black and white facts to back up whatever you may believe!!! Lol! Whether you are a believer or not...you must back it up with proof! That’s why I take the hardest road and say,” you know, I just don’t know for sure absolutely!” Also...books that are written by man (even if they were influenced by a higher power and the like do not count!)
@spjennifer He and all like him are just basically inserting their unbelief trying to muddy the waters. Belief came first, and it will have the last say.
Atheisim is simply a matter of not believing in a god for which there is no real evidence. Christians are atheist in respect of all gods except one. Atheists just apply the same standards of proof to all gods equally.
Ah yes, the atheist argument. Let me add my 2 cents: We are all created by an architect of the universe, in the architects image. Being our creator, the architect can do that ever it wants to us, for whatever reason it wants, whenever it wants. The existence of evil proves there is an architect.
"What does it mean that the Word of God will not return void?"
Answer: Isaiah 55:10–11 says, “As the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, . . . So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void” (KJV). The word void means “empty.” The remainder of verse 11 explains what it means to “not return void,” saying that God’s Word “will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”
Rain and snow are part of a cyclical water process. Precipitation comes upon the earth, drains into the land, and produces great benefit in the growth of crops, the refreshment of souls, and the sustaining of life. Rain and snow come from above and do not return back above without accomplishing their purpose. God compares His Word to the rain and snow because, like the precipitation, God’s Word always fulfills His good purposes.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we can know that He has an intention for His Word. God’s Word is from above. He “breathed out” His words to us, and they were recorded in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16). Every word He gave humanity is purposeful and was given for a reason. Like the rain and snow, God’s words bring forth life (John 6:63) and produce good fruit in our lives. Through His Word, we know that God loves us and that Jesus died to free us from sin and death; we also learn how to live in light of those truths.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we are encouraged to abide in His Word, allowing it to absorb into our lives, soaking it up as the ground soaks up the rain and snow. The truth will not return void as our hearts are changed. God’s Word rebukes us and corrects us when we are wrong, and it trains us in godly living (2 Timothy 3:16–17). His Word is a light guiding us in this dark world (Psalm 119:105). It is relevant to every pressing and practical problem. God’s Word will always accomplish what He desires, whether it is teaching, correcting, training, leading us to Him, revealing our sin, or some other good and profitable end.
When God says that His Word will not return to Him void, we understand that God is sovereign. The promise is that God’s Word will accomplish what He wants it to, not necessarily what we want it to. We may share the Word with the purpose of changing someone’s mind—and the person’s mind doesn’t change. Was God’s Word void? No, but our personal goals may have been different from God’s. Like the wind that “blows wherever it pleases,” the Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways (John 3:8). And God may use His Word in surprising ways, at surprising times, and in surprising people. We can’t predict exactly how God will use His Word any more than meteorologists can predict with certitude the rainfall and snowfall.
God’s Word will not return void. It is too powerful. When God said, “Let there be light,” the immediate result was that “there was light” (Genesis 1:3). When Jesus said, “Peace! Be still!” the wind ceased and the sea calmed (Mark 4:39). God’s Word will always prosper; God will succeed, and those who receive His Word will be overcomers as well (1 John 5:4).
@Silverwings That is so beautiful and true! I have witnessed and said the word of God 30 years ago to many people who are now Christians so I know iGod fulfills it’s purpose!🌷
Here are the flaws in your flow chart. Who ever said it was God’s responsibility to destroy evil? It is never said, in the King James version of the bible, that God is to destroy evil. Even in the Lord’s prayer it never says get rid of evil for us but to deliver us from evil. Meaning evil will be there. Who’s to say if there is a God that it’s even the purpose of God to prevent evil? Also, if you want to use logic as your basis of whether or not something you can’t see or quantify outside of ones own faith, logic isn’t what you should be using. However, scientifically there is the potential of a all knowing and all powerful being. As the universe is undefinable in size, we’ll say infinite, then that means there’s the potential for anything to exist or be possible. To contradict this is to say you know everything and therefore are a god and have just proven yourself wrong. The only issue is, this also means there’s the possibility of no god existing and even possible that we don’t truly exist and are the product of someone else’s mind. I’m not trying to prove there is or isn’t a God. I’m just saying that to try and determine whether or not a being that would, not just have the ability to control everything here, but in all the universe and therefore would be significantly more intelligent than someone that’s decided to take up a crusade of whether or not God exists on a platform such as this, is idiotic. If a God existed and evil still existed, then there must be a reason for it. Like if we could predict crime would it be justifiable to arrest someone for a murder they have yet to commit? It’s like a parent that knows the stupid decision their kid is going to make, sometimes you have to let them make it. See if they sink or swim. However, I bet if it were possible to literally see everything that exists in the universe, I’m not even talking about seeing the stars we see at night. I mean really see it, you probably would think that there was something more. But who really knows. Maybe you’d see it all and want to never have existed.
@Emosaur that is a human description. We’re not talking about humans. We’re talking about a god. How do we know that by letting evil, to an extent, into life that it isn’t good in the long run? We don’t. If we’re talking about God then inherently we have to talk about what comes after. If there is a life after death than even death is a step towards something else. Meaning that even if there’s an evil act that takes our life this could lead to something good later. Therefore, if God or even a god exists you can’t know how they think or operate because the thinking of such a being would be on a level you can’t even comprehend so to use terms like evil and good become moot because maybe on their level it’s completely different.
This sort of thing goes back to Epicurus over two thousand years ago and probably earlier:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
From https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8199-is-god-willing-to-prevent-evil-but-not-able-then
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus#Epicurean_paradox
There is no logic to even define God. God is a spirit. your only knowledge is what the world is feeding you and only in this world.
however, you can define evil spirits with sins. The more you love sin and learn the practices of their Nature, The more you're far away from God to even see the Truth.
1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world.
@Silverwings some or most atheist that likes to poke at someone with faith. They're trapped with their poor hopeless consciousness. That's all what everybody sees before they meet Christ Jesus or the great white throne of judgement when they die. I hate to see them witnessing it after life but at the same time. Why waste our time with them if they have no hope? Maybe it's just me. I do express my faith and then I go because I don't want to waste my time with useless games they play.
@SW-User He's obviously lost it again. He doesn't seem to understand that, by continually failing to present the evidence he claims to have, he proves my case for me. :)
@Emosaur God is the umbrella term sweetheart. If I was to call amun ra Zeus...that is what would be incorrect but who does that? They are both GODS....yes GODS but they are not the same God but they are GODS....get it?
@Emosaur Not all Christians believe in the literal truth of the Bible. There are billions of Christians and thousands of Christian denominations; you can't say "Christians believe in an omnipotent/omnicient/benevolent God" because many of them don't. About all you can say is that they all believe Jesus died for their sins; anything beyond that is a gross generalization. The question of whether God's supposed omnicience negates free will has been debated endlessly with no consensus.
Kierkegaard said that the man who succeeded in proving the truth of Christianity beyond any doubt whatsoever would by doing so have destroyed it. Faith can be defined as belief without proof.
Finding contradictions in a specific set of divine attributes doesn't prove God's nonexistence; it merely demonstrates that particular definition of God doesn't make sense. There are other much better proofs of God's nonexistence and the contradictions inherent in Christianity.
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV) 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. There you go. God creates evil.
Then why didn’t he is where you end up. The answer is simple. He wanted to give you the freedom to choose where you spend eternity. God doesn’t push, he leads. It’s there. Eternal life. Do you want it?
I’ve been a Christian since 1980 and that has not put one restriction on anything I want to do
You're under the yoke of christianity but you're to blinded by faith to see that. Trust me, I know what it's like, I was under that same yoke before I became an Atheist. I was able to break free, you can too if you try. Good luck.
Your god doesn't say anything. You are accusing us of being sinners but blaming your god because you don't want to take responsibility for your own actions.
I'm not answerable to figments of your imagination.
SW-User
Try a multidimensional model next time, and see if you get any closer.
Jesus died upon the cross to rescue us from this evil age. And took away our sin.
We are reconciled with God, though his grace. And are at peace with him.
@Emosaur Wow , pretty stupid to assume I don’t know what i’m talking about since you are a push button big banger big banging away into multiverses and other imaginary objects even when data contradicts it. Wait you know so little in your field you don’t even know where to find the new data. Sources??? 🤣🤣🤣 You have none for your made up fairy tales of expansion and please don’t refer to red shift. That is where they screwed up in 20th century science!
Actually it is more logical to believe that God created all than the Big Bang or random chance or whatever the worldly popular theory of the moment. But logic? God doesn’t care about your logic. He cares about your heart. Logic is not how you reach him. A sincere desire to know the truth is the way to God.
@Emosaur Well I wish you knew half as much about God and the Bible as you think you do so we could at least have a reasonably interesting discussion about it. There's the real fallacy. Wish in one hand . . . .
@Silverwings So you’re saying that my salvation is up to God. That would be hard Calvinism. According to the doctrine of Persistence of the Saints, I could be saved right now if God wants me to be saved, regardless of whether I believe in him or not.
Although, lesser deities like the Greek or Norse gods are just as unlikely.
Those gods are at least logically consistent. In many cases they can be seen as personifications of natural phenomena so, in that respect, they are real.
Congratulation Emo! You have proven beyond any shadow of doubt that your god does not - could not exist. Your god is constrained by the scientific laws and principles you decided your god can not over come.
The One True God has no such constraints. He is far beyond your understanding and explanation.
@Budwick Hey man, when people make clear to me that I don't make sense. I tell them that I look into it OR I tell them I'm wrong. I don't go crying about them bullying me for entering a conversation.
This is almost a year old so not sure why it's appeared in my SW feed, but this flow chart is, at a charitable best, misrepresentative.
Firstly, we're working on the assumption that evil exists in the first place, which some philosophers (to say nothing of some contemporary progressive types who insist absolutely everything is relative!), might object to.
But more fundamentally, it misses the point that God works his will through all things, including things which seems pretty calamitous for individuals, or indeed mankind as a whole. (If you read the Bible, this actually happens again and again, where people do unspeakably awful things, but through other peoples responses, and God's response, to that, better things happen in the end).
Evil (however this chart is defining it, which is unclear!), is necessary. For a start it is logically impossible to have 'free will' without potential negative consequences.
God moreover made the universe because he wanted to share it. God was quite content, perfect, blessed, eternal, and merrily existing just on his own, needing absolutely nothing material or spiritual to make his existence even more perfect.
But the single thing a perfect being cannot do on his own, is to share in that blessed existence with someone or something else that understands and appreciates it.
And that's where we come in. And we cannot understand and appreciate the blessedness of living with God, without also being capable of choosing not to. Free will and the possibility of evil are needed.
Of course you might not agree with this view, and not believe in God anyway, but that's a different issue I think.
ven Jesus had His dark night up to and including His Crucifixion. He prayed so fervently that He sweated blood but in the end He became even more obedient and said "Not My will but Thy Will be done".
That makes no sense. It contradicts all those christians who claim Jesus is "god".
This chart is so disconnected from reality... and not just God's reality, and so misses the actual premises of God... that it's actually not informative even for debate purposes.
@Sharon Thank you . I will. I'll do my best to ignore nut job Atheist in future with flow charts on religion and those who think the bible is the fulcrum of all Christian belief. They are so ignorant and misinformed . The joke is on them.
Or as a human you don't know what true good is, such a being couldn't be explained. In a world where such a thing exists, your logic is imperfect because it is not god logic
@Emosaur No I mean we since this is about this porch atheist classification and I'm confident that if there are others then we must have come to it in a similar way.
How much frustration do you have in your life because of the religious, how much energy and time do you expend and regret because it didn't lead to anything productive? People aren't converted to the other side by a discussion, they get there on their own and this goes for most things. The very first of us did not need to be convinced and there's a reason for that, because you can't be. You either are or you aren't and that switch is not under any sort of predictable control.
SW-User
He is extremely frustrated by the religious. He and his fat internet girlfriend bitch about it all the time. He is a walking Matt Dillahunty rant. He hasn’t an original thought on the matter because he is incapable of thinking. He just listens to the atheist experience all day and bawks about online. @Jackaloftheazuresand
@GodSpeed63 I feel sorry you don't function like a normal human and you see rape with no seriousness. You are so brainwashed that you feel no remorse for humans getting hurt. You are a potentially rapist just like those pastors. You prove me again and again that religion is dangerous. I hope you won't have any daughters nor anyone crossing your path. Let's hope no police catch you.
doesnt the bible also say that not everyone will enter the "kingdom of God?" @GodSpeed63 I actually believe there's more than one heaven. like, there's also a Buddhist kind of heaven.
Here is a summary of why there is evil in the world, and other questions about God. This is my understanding after studying the Bible for over 40 years!
1. Why is there evil in the world? Because God created angelic beings and human beings with a choice to love or hate. God has rules to love and not be sinful or selfish. He has consequences for sin. There is no sin in heaven at all. Satan rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven and he is trying to win people for himself and he is a destroyer of life and deceives people into doing evil. Adam and Eve were deceived by him because he is a liar, so they were banned from paradise forever and so are their childrens children. Why are there starving children, murder, famines, earthquakes, fires, and animals starving? Because God cursed the entire creation when we sinned. And He has laws in the universe that are followed.
2. What is Gods plan for humanity? His plan is to destroy this sinful world and make a new heaven and a new earth where there are no tears. Jesus, Gods Son, came to save us so we can experience this new heaven when we die Because He loves us! Because all humans have sinned, Jesus humbled himself and came down from heaven, came to us as a baby, and lived a sinless life, proved he can raise people from the dead, and died on a cross, and was raised himself the third day. All who believe in him will be saved from the wrath to come. When the gospel has gone out to the whole world that's the end.
3.Did God know that Satan and humans would sin when he made them? Yes he had a plan to win people for himself to live in heaven with him. He wants us to tell people about his salvation plan to get to heaven when we die.
4. Does God hear all prayers? NO he does not! We are banned from his presence. He is very clear in Romans and other verses he does not hear the ungodly's prayers, only the Godly's prayers.
5. How do we get God to hear our prayers? We repent our sins, and believe in Jesus who died for humanities sins. Then the Holy Spirit comes into your heart and you are saved. Then he hears your prayers. But he wont answer them unless you have faith and are obedient to his word. If you have prayers that are unanswered it is because either you are not obedient, or you do not have enough faith, or God is teaching you something, or he has a better plan for you. We should always pray for Gods will in our prayers because he knows best. Often we grow through hard times. Thank God for the hard times too!
6. Why does God not kill Satan now? Or destroy all evil now? God is soon going to burn up the world and ALL evil, but he is waiting for the gospel to go out to the whole world and people to repent and be saved first. He is watching who is doing his will loving people to christ. Then Jesus will come back and all saved will go to heaven and the ungodly judged by Jesus for every evil thought and deed.
7. How does God want us to live? He wants us to love God and treat people the way we want to be treated ourselves. He wants us to be thankful for everything!
8. How to handle it if someone hurts us? Jesus says to love our enemies, and pray for those who despitefully use us! But we should not yolk together with unbelievers.
9. Is the Bible accurate? Yes! It has been proven accurate. Some people say it has errors but they have misunderstood those verses. The Bible is the most respected history Book by historiens than any other book at universities.
10. How do I become successful in life? If you follow the Bible to love God, and people, and give first to him in money and time you will be successful, it is Gods promise!
I hope and pray you will heed Gods word in the Bible!
We are all creations of Source Energy , you can call it God or whatever, but there is a Divine Source Energy from which all things emerge - those we can see and many we can't - we are all just vibrational energy and the secret in life is to align our vibrational energy with source energy , it runs on harmony and balance, you get out of alignment with it and life doesn't go so well or feel quite right, but when we align with it, we feel its power and we can call upon it to manifest anything we can imagine , its an amazing power available to us all - truly believe and you will have it, Create the life you want, God, Source Energy whatever you want to call it, creates Universes and it will empower you to create the life of your dreams - Just Believe and Align, Athletes call it " Being in the Zone" where everything just goes perfectly, we all have those days, but just chalk it up to luck , having a good day, but its not just luck its not just one good day, its alignment with Source Energy , a vision of what everyday can be, if you align with Source Energy, and believe !! Call upon God or whatever, its real - Vibrational Energy is real, Positive Vibes to you all !!
I can't speak for all Atheists but, in general, that's right. As there is no real evidence that "god" exist, they don't believe it does. If real evidence were presented, the situation would change.
There are no such people that are atheists except for those skeptics lying six feet under their headstones. In spite of what these skeptics claim, they believe in some type of idol and have faith as long as they're alive.
Well if you believe that nothing can make something and that non-personality can make personality and if you believe that nonintelligent forces can create intelligence and all the rest of the atheistic nonsense that atheist churn out and I suppose God cannot exist. Frankly when people ceased to believe in God they don’t believe in nothing they believe in anything as you can see from the nonsense written here
@Aliveshock Both work. The universe can be observed expanding. Evolution also can be observed in nature and in the laboratory. Show me something in your Bronze Age book, that the goat rapist got right in Genesis.
@newjaninev2 What a stupid thing to say. First of all you have no idea what the Bible says, and secondly you're wrong, but most importantly it doesn't matter because anything right you would call science and anything wrong you would assume (probably incorrectly) was from the Bible.
The God equation was constructed by man to explain why stuff we dont understand happens and was then coopted by man to control social behaviour "or my big brother will beat you up". Having said this, the only idea more perverse than God is the idea that our getting together on a sunday on our knees and Singing at him will make a blind bit of difference to him.
