It's not the Christian Republic of America, so why is it those who are religious can hold the bodies of secular women and of other religions hostage?

Eh, it's a bit more complicated than that. I'm an atheist and a secularist myself, but I'll readily admit that I can't provide a provably valid moral distinction between a first-trimester fetus and a baby. The best I can do is say that babies are probably sentient while fetuses probably aren't. But if you think that us humans derive our intrinsic human worth from something other than sentience (i.e. heartbeat, unique set of genes, other silly shit like that), then banning abortion is morally necessary as an extension of banning murder. And again, I can't prove that any of those perspectives are less valid.

Now you could say sure, most people who believe that fetuses are people do so because they believe that fetuses have souls and souls are what make people intrinsically valuable. That's probably true. But then for those people to put their religion aside to pursue the principle of secular governance, they would have to basically accept what they wholeheartedly view as an ongoing holocaust type of situation just for the priviledge of saying that they stand on principle. Principles are valuable, but they can only take you so far; Hell, there's a principled argument against Roe V. Wade (it's legislating from the bench & the logic was pretty dodgy), but I still support Roe V. Wade because the consequences of eliminating it are too bloody and horrible.

As far as I'm concerned, sincere Christians don't have much choice in opposing abortion, so the best options (which we can take contemporaneously) are appealing to those who aren't sincere Christians AND working to shrink the base of sincere Christians that we have to put up with. There's nothing wrong with using religion to allay your own mental health/make you feel better in the moment; fuck, I've done that just last month. But viewing it as a source of objective reality is just a fancy way of buying into misinformation and poisoning your entire worldview.

They’re not even good Christians tbh.

Ok, look. Take religion out of it.

Sperm hits the egg. Cells divide. It's just a bundle of cells. Biology or whatever, yeah?

Then - BOOM, at some point fetus has heartbeat and can also feel pain and is thus sentient and capable of suffering.

Hurting living things that can suffer is BAD, mmmkay?

Unless you have VERY good reason to.

And most of the time, said reason is not good enough to kill babbeh.

BUT - Unwanted pregnancies can be PREVENTED.

And therein lies the solution.

Prevention is the best medicine.

And the demonocrat party forcing their religious minority bullschiff kung flu shots on everybody ok with you?

I’m going to get so much hate for this but go a head.
Putting limits on abortion is not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve seen and lived the struggle a premature birth is so I know the burdens of having child are. However, there has to be morals in society because otherwise it falls apart! So I think it’s a great compromise if abortion must exist that limitations should be put on it. If the unborn child can survive with medical assistance and feel pain the human thing to do is carry it to birth. This time period I believe is 21 weeks. Now I am also all for making adoption less expensive and more available to individuals who want to be parents. (Which is a little off topic) it’s not ending safe abortions for women who have to make that difficult decisions it’s a human regulation for a moral standard.
As far as religious beliefs I was raised Catholic however found my path in Norse paganism.

"Religion" has always controlled & oppressed women!!

You're absolutely right about America not being a Christian Republic

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I always find it ironic that so many pro-life types and liberals would (rightfully) feel that charges should be filed if someone does anything that could cause a woman to miscarry a sentient unborn child (that she wants) either recklessly or on purpose...

But if that same woman were to choose to abort her sentient unborn baby, then that's just fine? Lmao.

Not really a laughing matter, though. I just find it sad.

Of course, and if a barbarian like Chris Watts or the dude that killed Lacey Peterson kills a pregnant woman, so many of these pro-abortion people would (rightfully!) KNOW that both the Mother and BABY were murdered!

We do not say he killed the mom and "aborted" his kid, do we?

No, instead we often say something more accurate, along the lines of:

"Chris Watts murdered his wife, kids and UNBORN CHILD."

And if any abuser hurts a pregnant woman and her sentient baby dies, that man should rightfully be called a MURDERER.

So why the double standard if a woman were to abort that same baby instead?

Yes, there is always nuance at play, but in my opinion there is a clear double standard here.

The funny thing is the bible doesn't even support their position. Quite the opposite. This is more a political position being turned into morality issue that is not even supported by the religion they use as an excuse.

I get that people have religious reasons to be against abortion. That is valid for them but not to impose their views on everyone else.

Murder is something committed against a sentient being.

Because this is a very, very religious country, despite all pagan and nihilistic signs. This country self-identifies as roughly 30% evangelical right off the bat. Those are what we Catholics and Protestants call the "serious" religions. Fanatical, perhaps.

30% isn't too too much until you discover it's the single largest identified religious group in the country, followed by the more conservative factions of Christianity. (https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/)

They may be in the minority of the US, but their power is strong for two reasons, I believe. One, they have money. Plenty of it. Two, they have passion. Where more relaxed groups often adopt a live-and-let-live approach, the conservatives seek to control every aspect of life, from conception to birth to education, to healthcare to employment and childcare. Even death. So they fight tooth and nail, feeling they're doing the will of God when they're really juts preserving the block the way they like it.

Social justice is about rewarding all those deserving. Conservative power grabs are simply about keeping the fortress walls strong.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” - John Adams

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." - Charles Carrol

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." - George Washington

It kind of reminds me of the decade+ of that same minority screaming about Obama causing "Sharia Law" (preceded by just Muslims in general)

You're not entirely wrong and to compound the issue most of the Evangelical Right don't want sex education taught in schools. It is long past due that the Fathers of unwanted children be held to account for their actions. The responsibility for a child does NOT rest solely with the Mother nor does the responsibility for contraception. I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control but in the cases of rape, incest or birth defects do think it can be appropriate. I know women will say their body, their decision but they too must take responsibility for their actions and not use abortion as birth control, I am certain it's easier to take a pill than to have a fetus aborted...

In numerous countries where abortion is clearly outlawed, there's more than a number of cases of courts forcing little kids to have babies, even when it was shown to be the by-product of r-pe. In other examples the mother would have died in childbirth or the kid would have died due to some condition. It was made to be delivered anyways.

At any rate, no one even needs those excuses not to have children because coercion is a very real factor in relationships and thus not everything works out the way people plan all the time.

The fact remains, this has always been about controlling women. The "pick me girls" and the pro life males have always been that way, they pleasure themselves with the thoughts of delightful power fantasies in which they aren't deemed irrelevant in a society that ignores them.

[b]https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/10/mark-mccloskey-ban-abortions-for-victims-of-incestuous-rape.html[/b]

And Mark Mccloskey isn't the only pro lifer who feels that way.

I'm 100% Pro-Choice with this issue. In my humble opinion, it's the woman's choice whether to have an abortion or not. Even with my unfortunate moto-cross accident back when I was 15 that rendered me to shooting nothing but blanks, I'm still Pro-Choice. No One is going to change my mind on this issue. Period!

What in particular makes you feel like that's not right? Because those same religious people feel the same way about how LGBT Americans are a minority but their views are being forced onto society in certain ways as well, but we don't hear anyone start to speak against the LGBT movement because it comes from a minority. Black civil rights was against racism and black people also forced their view onto society as well. It's how movement to change a majority happen; it has to be from a minority.

You need more substance than religious Christians being a minority to discredit their stance on abortion.

It's deliberate; they know what they're doing. It's a classic case of the age old "I'm pretending that the thing I want is the way it's always been, when in fact it's the opposite, but I have to be dishonest because otherwise my agenda has no chance."

Christians aren't entitled to an opinion like everyone else solely because they belong to a religious group?

They want their glory days back where they had all of the power, where they called the shots and there was no Harry Potter. That's all it really amounts down to.

I support a woman's right to give birth. If birth becomes a legal mandate, it is no longer a gift. I support a woman's right to give birth.

Umm No one can force their views on anyone..

In a democracy the Majority vote in the party that most represents their POV.. So if the USA ends up making abortion ellegal it will be as a result of the majority voting in a political party with that proposal as a plaform..

It's not the soviet socialists republic of anarchy either...

where do you think our laws come from?

Two obvious points to consider.

1) It’s not an unreasonable conclusion to consider the killing of a fetus as a homicide.

2) One need not be religious to object to homicide

Both of these points are valid opinions that you may not agree with but reasonable people can maintain differing opinions.

If we're going to discard the principles of morality in determining right from wrong and allow people to murder children based simple on personal choice

Then why not allow anyone to murder anyone they want for the same reason? 🤔

Abortion is against the Muslim religion.

I respectfully refer you to my reply to Blueveins above.
I do ask you this: if it is a religious [i]minority[/i], what is your problem with having elected representatives decide?

Why is this debate so important to you?

Hmmm??? Why not listen to the scientist and medical experts when they discuss the viability of the fetus to survive outside of the womb?

I believe in a woman's right to give birth.' If birth becomes a legal mandate, it is no longer a gift. I support a woman's right to give birth.

[quote]It's not the Christian Republic of America[/quote]
the Republic of Gilead* FTFY 🤪

It's a pure power play.