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Conservatives don't understand Marx

Conservatives and Neo - liberals are more likely to caricature and make fun of Karl Marx’s writings and beliefs than offer serious rebuttals to his many ideas. Why? Because Marx’s insights expose deep inconsistencies in cherished right-wing doctrines.

If you want to anger a conservative, just try arguing that Karl Marx might have something worth saying. Or worse, suggest that a man who wrote numerous volumes on everything from German philosophy to the standard assumptions of classical political economy might have a more nuanced theory than “rich people bad, poor people good.”

Yet several decades after the Cold War, plenty of right-wing pundits still can’t be bothered to offer rebuttals to Marx that go beyond glib denunciations. Jordan Peterson has described Marxism as an evil theory and made his name bashing “postmodern neo-Marxism,” despite admitting during one debate that he hasn’t read much more than the Communist Manifesto in the past few decades.

In his book "Don’t Burn This Book" Dave Rubin lumps in socialism with Nazism and fascism by claiming Benito Mussolini was “raised on Karl Marx’s Das Kapital” — ignoring Il Duce’s later efforts to imprison and silence Marxists and other “enemies of the nation.” And most recently, Ben Shapiro’s "How To Destroy America in Three Easy Steps" recycles old tropes about the “nonsense” of Marx’s labor theory of value, while ignoring the irony of praising John Locke for “correctly pointing out that ownership of property is merely an extension of the idea of ownership of your labor; when we remove something from the state of nature and mix our labor with it and join something of our own to it, we thereby make that property our own.”

This tendency to criticize Marx without actually engaging his ideas is especially rich considering Peterson, Rubin, and Shapiro endlessly parrot clichés about the importance of hard work and spirited debate. An easy way to dismiss them would be to just insist they live up to those lofty standards in between appearances on PragerU.

I suggest that conservatives avoid seriously dealing with Marx’s work not just because he was critical of capitalism, wrote some polemical things about religion, or was suspicious of class hierarchy. It is because Marx’s writings reveal deep inconsistences in cherished conservative doctrines.

A go-to argument of conservatives is to dismiss Marx’s “theory of human nature”: either Marx was dangerously naive about the human capacity for evil and selfishness — which shows why his ideal classless society turned out to be such a bust in practice — or he believed that there was no human nature, that we are infinitely plastic beings that could be made and remade by a sufficiently rational and powerful state committed to utopian planning.

Both of these claims are nonsensical. From his early ruminations about our “species being” determined by nature, to his later psychological ruminations about how our desire for recognition and status spurs “commodity fetishism,” Marx was neither utopian nor naive about our potential for hypocrisy, cruelty, and hedonism. Where Marx was innovative was in showing how the historical and economic conditions around us play a major role in shaping our sense of self and behavior.

This doesn’t mean we are purely determined by historical context. But Marx argued that the historical and economic conditions we’re born into provide the starting point we all must navigate. As he put it in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, “men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.”

Parts of this argument should actually appeal to many conservatives. From Edmund Burke to Roger Scruton, a common right-wing complaint has been that radicals portray humans as ahistorical beings that can be understood purely as atomized individuals. Instead, they stressed, every human is embedded in layers of community, with hallowed traditions and morals shaped through history and institutions, including churches and temples, nations, and even “Western civilization.” These “little brigades” affect how we think of ourselves and what we believe.

Conservatives often insisted that ignoring the importance of these historical communities could only lead to disaster. Marx would certainly agree. But he would add that we are also embedded in a historically distinct economic system that profoundly shapes who we are and what we believe.

It’s on this point that many of the same conservative commentators that insist on applying a historical and institutional lens to understand human behavior and communities become ahistoricists. They insist that capitalism simply flows from human nature, that it has always been around and therefore always must be, and that any effort to change it can only yield disaster, as surely as demanding fish ride bicycles
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Capitalism has not always existed. It is a fairly recent evolution. But never forget:

Capitalism is the only economic system in human history that elevated a majority of a society's citizens out of poverty.

That's an historical fact
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Whatever you say. All I get on the subject is a word salad.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@HoraceGreenley No, you've been given a perfectly workable definition. You just hate it because it's not what your uncledaddy and your sistermama told you it was.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
redredred · M
You write just like Marx. You go on and on and on and never make any sense. Marx was an idiot who never supported his family, through his domestic servant out of the house after he impregnated her and died a fool.

Sho me one example where the “state has withered away”

Marxist are dilettantes who can’t make it on their own and imagine a Marxist state where they become the commissar of poetry and interpretive dance and it falls to others to muck out the stables. 🤣
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@redredred Pedophile.
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@redredred clearly nonsense
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
Friedrich Engels, Marx's collaborator on Das Kapital, received a first hand education in capitalism through his family's textile factories and based his philosophy on his observations of the Manchester slums and the wretchedness of the working class. His philosophy was rather more empirical and less utopian than say that of Adam Smith. Modern capitalism would be even more unbearable without his contribution to the labour movement.
irishmolly72 · 56-60, F
@SunshineGirl Hmmmmm ... it's odd that so many people flocked from the farmlands to become part of this "wretchedness of the working class". It's so interesting that the capitalist societies are the ones illegal immigrants risk their lives trying to enter.

Why do so many flee socialist and marxist societies to become so "wretched"? I guess it will always be a great mystery. 🤔
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@irishmolly72 They often had no choice. The Agrarian Revolution replaced jobs in rural areas with mechanisation. Increasing specialisation in secondary industries such as textile and leather manufacturing destroyed small scale cottage operations and concentrated jobs in urban areas.

The top five originating countries for 'irregular migration' (not even HM government is ridiculous enough to describe it as 'illegal') to the UK are Iraq, Iran, Eritrea, Syria and Afghanistan. Although some of their ruling parties may have left wing revolutionary heritage, the principal reasons for large scale migration are civil war, violence and intimidation, which in the case of at least four are the consequence of wider geopolitical events and external interference in domestic affairs.
irishmolly72 · 56-60, F
@SunshineGirl
The Agrarian Revolution replaced jobs in rural areas with mechanisation. Increasing specialisation in secondary industries such as textile and leather manufacturing destroyed small scale cottage operations and concentrated jobs in urban areas.

This phenomenon of course brought much higher levels of wealth to the urban areas, or people wouldn't have migrated to there. No one had a gun to their heads. They were making rational decisions, and standards of living improved all around.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
This is such an impressive post and the responses to it also prove the main premise correct,

It's to be expected that most people here haven't read Marx (I think Helen and Count are the exceptions) but the stock responses have been to ignore the arguments made about Marx's theories and lean back to the lazy strawman understandings.

Nothing in your post defended 'communist' Russia. Anyone whose ever read Marx knows that 99% of his work was an economic and historical analysis of capitalism, with the flaws and contradictions within it. True to form, people have said that 'Marxist economics' is a theory of how to make the state control people etc. If they don't have time to read the source material, they could have engaged with what you actually said, but then that would be harder.

You mentioned Rubin and Peterson and how they are grifters. Absolutely. They rely on the fact that their audience will never fact-check them or bother with the source material, which is why they think that Marxism and postmodernism are the same and that postmodernism is a conspiracy to divide people with identity politics. 🤣

It's telling people what they want to hear and selling people what they want to buy. It doesn't need to be true, it just needs to feel like it is. An actual postmodernist would say something about that!
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Capitalism increased people's standard of living.

It's the only economic system in human history that elevated a majority of people out of poverty.

This fact cannot be challenged.

If you want to do the greatest good for the most people Capitalism is the only moral choice.

Basic Utilitarianism
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire You still used ad hominem after admitted (sort of) your mistake.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Actually you are the guilty party. You did issue ad hominem that had nothing to do with your mistake.

You didn't actually apologize.

You didn't address the central theme of the thread.

Therefore you continue to exhibit poor character.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
Well and not understanding Marx is part of the point. It's about creating an easy to mock and dismiss caricature
It is also helpful the audience they are playing to don't know Karl Marx from Groucho Marx.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
One of the very natures of conservatism as a social movement is that it says that whatever we have now, or more specifically, whatever we're trying to move from, is human nature. They did it with monarchs too.

It's why conservatism isn't really an ideology, it's a social force. You can use different words to describe the actual current beliefs of conservatives in their various camps.
Diotrephes · 70-79, M
If anyone should have been aborted, it was Karl Marx.
TrashCat · M
@Diotrephes You are insanely ridiculous 😂 Christianity is based on Judaism and Christ was Jewish. You listening strongbow?
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
One wonders whether @Diotrephes is entirely sane after his recent interaction with LordShadowfire...
Guitarman123 · 31-35, M
@Diotrephes edgy lol
Conservatives don't understand Marx. Grifters do, which is why they lie about him.
helenS · 36-40, F
Actually Mussolini was a chieftain of the Italian Socialist party, before WW I.
He wasn't really a Marxist though. The articles he wrote for the Avanti (of which he was editor-in-chief!) are more inspired by Nietzsche's Lebensphilosophie than Marxian analytical thinking.
A bit like Jack London, in my opinion.
@BohemianBabe you fascist communists rule.
Peaceandnamaste · 26-30, F
@Roundandroundwego "Communist fascist"??? Please stop with the buzzwords . Why do right wingers resort to ad hominem attacks when their ideologies are being challenged?

How projecting when you call someone a "fascist".
@Peaceandnamaste they're opposites. Nobody is a communist fascist. But we gotta accept that as Murkan talk for "don't negotiate, we kill whomever we like".
Nomad7 · 22-25, M
I’ll only say one thing: The standard of living in capitalist countries is FAR higher than in Communist countries. Even recently capitalist and formerly communist countries have benefitted greatly and grown greatly after going capitalist. Even China is communist in the spirit of its people, but its economy is very much capitalist.

The world would be a better place had Karl Marx not been born, tbh
@Nomad7 That is actually objectively false and there is actually a peer reviewed study proving the exact opposite.
Gloomy · F
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow studies in former soviet countries indicate the same people say their standard of living was higher back then
@Gloomy Yep. When you compare countries at the same economic level a socialist system has been proven to provide a higher standard of living by all metrics.

That is why people arguing in favor of capitalism pull stunts like comparing the economy of the USA to Laos.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
[media=https://youtu.be/DYeYPcougmA]
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BohemianBabe Not at all. You have no clue what you are talking about. An absurd statement of that magnitude eliminates any credibility you might have.

And you just escalated your commitment.

Go peddle your nonsense to the clueless somewhere else.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy yes it is.
everyone works and everyone shares the profits. sounds damn good until you factor in human nature.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy Other economic systems are worse at all these things. You focus on your perspective of the perceived shortcomings of capitalism because you live in that system.

Other places with other systems are far worse. You just don't perceive it because you don't live there.
Gloomy · F
@HoraceGreenley Not just mine they are observable.
There are barely any systems outside of global capitalism these days and don't try to make the argument China is communist because it clearly isn't.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy Capitalism has overtaken all other economic systems because it reaises people's standard of living out of poverty.

My point is in the review of history, which includes socialism, commnunism, etc., none has done as good a job as capitalism for reliving poverty.

This is the reason it dominates today's world.
It is really simple. It is way easier to appear to defeat a strawman.
They know. They lie about what they understand.
It's time to get a winning strategy and stop playing their game.
You cannot wake a man who is only pretending to sleep.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Marx's writing an ideas have been reinterpreted and reformulated so many times over the years that they can mean anything a particular person wants.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
Wealth creation is superior in countries embracing capitalism despite its inherent flaws.

[image/video deleted]

[image/video deleted]
@Fukfacewillie Well I would say they had State Capitalism. And even at the time, most Leftists recognized this.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
@BohemianBabe Yes, I understand that. I learned this today, so thanks.
@Fukfacewillie
losthorizons · 51-55, M
Because he is oppressive and communism dies t work unless you are lazy or in too. Moron
Convivial · 26-30, F
Nice read... Thank you!
Gloomy · F
@Caballero oh so that's why dictatorships like under Pinocchet, Hitler, Batista, .... were capitalist
TrashCat · M
@Caballero Thanks for the meme. I'll now change parties to republican and embrace predatory capitalism, but I'm confused...fascism is RW sooo... how does that work?
Peaceandnamaste · 26-30, F
@Caballero When right wingers project.
Alyosha · 31-35, M
losthorizons · 51-55, M
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
I would not want communism even if it were possible, and I also don’t think it is possible. I think it’s inherently utopian and I am opposed to utopian visions of society.

Marxism is an interesting theory about value and human motivation but I don’t ascribe to it.
Gloomy · F
@Fukfacewillie I don’t think Communism will happen anytime in the near future either but Socialism is definitely a promising alternative when not done dogmaticly.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
@Gloomy I have no quarrel with its pursuit, but probably not to the same extent.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
And liberals don't understand the Three Stooges.





Sorry...

 
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