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Conservatives don't understand Marx

Conservatives and Neo - liberals are more likely to caricature and make fun of Karl Marx’s writings and beliefs than offer serious rebuttals to his many ideas. Why? Because Marx’s insights expose deep inconsistencies in cherished right-wing doctrines.

If you want to anger a conservative, just try arguing that Karl Marx might have something worth saying. Or worse, suggest that a man who wrote numerous volumes on everything from German philosophy to the standard assumptions of classical political economy might have a more nuanced theory than “rich people bad, poor people good.”

Yet several decades after the Cold War, plenty of right-wing pundits still can’t be bothered to offer rebuttals to Marx that go beyond glib denunciations. Jordan Peterson has described Marxism as an evil theory and made his name bashing “postmodern neo-Marxism,” despite admitting during one debate that he hasn’t read much more than the Communist Manifesto in the past few decades.

In his book "Don’t Burn This Book" Dave Rubin lumps in socialism with Nazism and fascism by claiming Benito Mussolini was “raised on Karl Marx’s Das Kapital” — ignoring Il Duce’s later efforts to imprison and silence Marxists and other “enemies of the nation.” And most recently, Ben Shapiro’s "How To Destroy America in Three Easy Steps" recycles old tropes about the “nonsense” of Marx’s labor theory of value, while ignoring the irony of praising John Locke for “correctly pointing out that ownership of property is merely an extension of the idea of ownership of your labor; when we remove something from the state of nature and mix our labor with it and join something of our own to it, we thereby make that property our own.”

This tendency to criticize Marx without actually engaging his ideas is especially rich considering Peterson, Rubin, and Shapiro endlessly parrot clichés about the importance of hard work and spirited debate. An easy way to dismiss them would be to just insist they live up to those lofty standards in between appearances on PragerU.

I suggest that conservatives avoid seriously dealing with Marx’s work not just because he was critical of capitalism, wrote some polemical things about religion, or was suspicious of class hierarchy. It is because Marx’s writings reveal deep inconsistences in cherished conservative doctrines.

A go-to argument of conservatives is to dismiss Marx’s “theory of human nature”: either Marx was dangerously naive about the human capacity for evil and selfishness — which shows why his ideal classless society turned out to be such a bust in practice — or he believed that there was no human nature, that we are infinitely plastic beings that could be made and remade by a sufficiently rational and powerful state committed to utopian planning.

Both of these claims are nonsensical. From his early ruminations about our “species being” determined by nature, to his later psychological ruminations about how our desire for recognition and status spurs “commodity fetishism,” Marx was neither utopian nor naive about our potential for hypocrisy, cruelty, and hedonism. Where Marx was innovative was in showing how the historical and economic conditions around us play a major role in shaping our sense of self and behavior.

This doesn’t mean we are purely determined by historical context. But Marx argued that the historical and economic conditions we’re born into provide the starting point we all must navigate. As he put it in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, “men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.”

Parts of this argument should actually appeal to many conservatives. From Edmund Burke to Roger Scruton, a common right-wing complaint has been that radicals portray humans as ahistorical beings that can be understood purely as atomized individuals. Instead, they stressed, every human is embedded in layers of community, with hallowed traditions and morals shaped through history and institutions, including churches and temples, nations, and even “Western civilization.” These “little brigades” affect how we think of ourselves and what we believe.

Conservatives often insisted that ignoring the importance of these historical communities could only lead to disaster. Marx would certainly agree. But he would add that we are also embedded in a historically distinct economic system that profoundly shapes who we are and what we believe.

It’s on this point that many of the same conservative commentators that insist on applying a historical and institutional lens to understand human behavior and communities become ahistoricists. They insist that capitalism simply flows from human nature, that it has always been around and therefore always must be, and that any effort to change it can only yield disaster, as surely as demanding fish ride bicycles
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HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Capitalism has not always existed. It is a fairly recent evolution. But never forget:

Capitalism is the only economic system in human history that elevated a majority of a society's citizens out of poverty.

That's an historical fact
Gloomy · F
@HoraceGreenley and Marx wouldn't even dispute that it served it's purpose but its innherent contradictions and severe flaws necessitate something better.. Socialism is to be built upon Capitalism.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy That's not what Marx said.

And that is not the foundation of Socialism.

That notion is a bastardization of the original intent.

Social Engineering - The art of replacing what works with what sounds good.

Gloomy · F
@HoraceGreenley Then you don't know Marxist theory... thought so 😂
helenS · 36-40, F
@HoraceGreenley I think there is some truth to that.
Gloomy · F
@HoraceGreenley [quote]Social Engineering - The art of replacing what works with what sounds good.[/quote]

You see capitalism doesn’t work.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HoraceGreenley [quote]That's not what Marx said.[/quote]

That IS what Marx said. Thank you for proving (as usual) that you know nothing!
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy Actually I do know Marxist theory. Matx's work has been reworked by many people and its lost its original intent. Marx was reacting to Mercantilism. Capitalism was still new when Marx came along.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy
Socialism requires the engineering and not capitalism. Capitalism evolved spontaneously. Socialism requires government intervention.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy You continue to ignore historical fact.
It's only capitalism that works.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HoraceGreenley [quote]Actually I do know Marxist theory.[/quote] You so obviously don't that its painful. TBF, I haven't read Hayek or Sowell either but then neither have you. Its just a meme you like.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 Marxism has been altered over the years. His writings have been translated and reworked. Capitalism was very new when Marx came along. What is attributed to capitalism is really about Mercantilism which dominated European economies at the time. Remember there were still monarchies in Europe at the time.

Capitalism eventually replaced mercantilism just like representative governments replaced monarchies.

Later writers of Marx reworked his theories often to suit their own needs in their current circumstances.

Today a Socialist can't attack mercantilism as that system is long gone.

But while mercantilism has some similarities to capitalism they are not the same.

Marx is really about labor theory.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 I'm familiar with Hayek and Sowell. I answered your question about Marx. You are referring to later onterpretations of Marx.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HoraceGreenley This is so ridiculous, it's hard to know where to start.

[quote]Marxism has been altered over the years. His writings have been translated and reworked. [/quote]

I've read contemporary Marxist writers and you haven't. Translation has nothing to do with this.

[quote]Capitalism eventually replaced mercantilism just like representative governments replaced monarchies.[/quote]

Mercantilism is a type of capitalism 🙆‍♂️. I could be wrong but I can't remember Marx addressing this type. None of his major theories would be altered by Merchantalism.

[quote]Marx is really about labour theory.[/quote]

It was but about how labour relates to capital. It's about economic history and power relations.

You are clueless and not even close.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 mercantilism is not a form of capitalism
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 labor theory is about power relations
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 Europe was a very different place in Marx's time than it is today.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HoraceGreenley If you had a clue (which you don't) them you would know that capital/labour is a power relation. 😎
Gloomy · F
@HoraceGreenley [quote]capitalism. Capitalism evolved spontaneously.[/quote]

😂 you are clueless also socialism for the rich that is what capitalism is
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@Gloomy You are too far indoctrinated in your Marxism to appreciate actual facts.
@HoraceGreenley [quote]You are too far indoctrinated in your Marxism to appreciate actual facts.[/quote]

What's Marxism?
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BohemianBoo You want me to quote the textbook definition?
@HoraceGreenley Look, we both know you're lying here. Try whatever strategy you want, I can debunk you in several ways.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BohemianBoo I haven't lied and your "debunk" only makes sense to other like minded fanatics.
@HoraceGreenley You know that Socialism has never been tried, so you lied when you said it has a history of failure.
Just define Marxism so I can make you look foolish, then you can start posting gifs.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BohemianBoo Socialism has nver been tried? Really?