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Conservatives don't understand Marx

Conservatives and Neo - liberals are more likely to caricature and make fun of Karl Marx’s writings and beliefs than offer serious rebuttals to his many ideas. Why? Because Marx’s insights expose deep inconsistencies in cherished right-wing doctrines.

If you want to anger a conservative, just try arguing that Karl Marx might have something worth saying. Or worse, suggest that a man who wrote numerous volumes on everything from German philosophy to the standard assumptions of classical political economy might have a more nuanced theory than “rich people bad, poor people good.”

Yet several decades after the Cold War, plenty of right-wing pundits still can’t be bothered to offer rebuttals to Marx that go beyond glib denunciations. Jordan Peterson has described Marxism as an evil theory and made his name bashing “postmodern neo-Marxism,” despite admitting during one debate that he hasn’t read much more than the Communist Manifesto in the past few decades.

In his book "Don’t Burn This Book" Dave Rubin lumps in socialism with Nazism and fascism by claiming Benito Mussolini was “raised on Karl Marx’s Das Kapital” — ignoring Il Duce’s later efforts to imprison and silence Marxists and other “enemies of the nation.” And most recently, Ben Shapiro’s "How To Destroy America in Three Easy Steps" recycles old tropes about the “nonsense” of Marx’s labor theory of value, while ignoring the irony of praising John Locke for “correctly pointing out that ownership of property is merely an extension of the idea of ownership of your labor; when we remove something from the state of nature and mix our labor with it and join something of our own to it, we thereby make that property our own.”

This tendency to criticize Marx without actually engaging his ideas is especially rich considering Peterson, Rubin, and Shapiro endlessly parrot clichés about the importance of hard work and spirited debate. An easy way to dismiss them would be to just insist they live up to those lofty standards in between appearances on PragerU.

I suggest that conservatives avoid seriously dealing with Marx’s work not just because he was critical of capitalism, wrote some polemical things about religion, or was suspicious of class hierarchy. It is because Marx’s writings reveal deep inconsistences in cherished conservative doctrines.

A go-to argument of conservatives is to dismiss Marx’s “theory of human nature”: either Marx was dangerously naive about the human capacity for evil and selfishness — which shows why his ideal classless society turned out to be such a bust in practice — or he believed that there was no human nature, that we are infinitely plastic beings that could be made and remade by a sufficiently rational and powerful state committed to utopian planning.

Both of these claims are nonsensical. From his early ruminations about our “species being” determined by nature, to his later psychological ruminations about how our desire for recognition and status spurs “commodity fetishism,” Marx was neither utopian nor naive about our potential for hypocrisy, cruelty, and hedonism. Where Marx was innovative was in showing how the historical and economic conditions around us play a major role in shaping our sense of self and behavior.

This doesn’t mean we are purely determined by historical context. But Marx argued that the historical and economic conditions we’re born into provide the starting point we all must navigate. As he put it in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, “men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.”

Parts of this argument should actually appeal to many conservatives. From Edmund Burke to Roger Scruton, a common right-wing complaint has been that radicals portray humans as ahistorical beings that can be understood purely as atomized individuals. Instead, they stressed, every human is embedded in layers of community, with hallowed traditions and morals shaped through history and institutions, including churches and temples, nations, and even “Western civilization.” These “little brigades” affect how we think of ourselves and what we believe.

Conservatives often insisted that ignoring the importance of these historical communities could only lead to disaster. Marx would certainly agree. But he would add that we are also embedded in a historically distinct economic system that profoundly shapes who we are and what we believe.

It’s on this point that many of the same conservative commentators that insist on applying a historical and institutional lens to understand human behavior and communities become ahistoricists. They insist that capitalism simply flows from human nature, that it has always been around and therefore always must be, and that any effort to change it can only yield disaster, as surely as demanding fish ride bicycles
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HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Capitalism increased people's standard of living.

It's the only economic system in human history that elevated a majority of people out of poverty.

This fact cannot be challenged.

If you want to do the greatest good for the most people Capitalism is the only moral choice.

Basic Utilitarianism
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Just because you don't understand it doesn't make me wrong.
@HoraceGreenley Oh, I fully understand all the bullshit that you write.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Then challenge any of my assertions. Has some other economic system elevated the mojority of people out of poverty?
@HoraceGreenley I don't think you quite understand how burden of proof works. You make the assertion, you have to provide evidence.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire You want me to bak up the obviousl historical fact about capitalism?
@HoraceGreenley I want you to back up something you say for once in your pathetic life.
@HoraceGreenley I hate to get in the middle of this argument so let me lend you some support and add a wrinkle. You are certainly correct that capitalism has a good track record—better than any other system for growing an economy. I would also point out that the macroeconomic story of the millennium is China, with phenomenal GDP growth and lifting hundreds of millions (I think) out of poverty, largely based on its manufacturing prowess. I don’t consider China a free market economy (as it promised to be if it were allowed to join the WTO back in 2001) although it has allowed markets to flourish with a heavy helping hand by the communist party. Can it continue its economic assent without government controlling the levers? I have my doubts.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BiasForAction China's financial performance is somewhat dubious as it's hard to verify the numbers. And the growth it experienced was certainly not the result of socialism. While it's economy is not as free as a western democracy, the export business is based on capitalism.
@HoraceGreenley yes China’s opening up in 1978 was an opening up to capitalism (property rights etc) but hardly that if free markets. Even today the power of state owned enterprises or state controlled enterprises is unlike any other country. Chinas numbers used to be much worse than today but in any case it is very clear that chinas economic rise has been phenomenal since 2001. Would it be even better without the micromanagement of the communist party? It’s debatable.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@BiasForAction The standard of living in China is still very low. The total perfromance of the economy is large, but that is a factor of the large population.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire A few minutes on the Google machine turned up:

Capitalism puts power in the hands of individuals and private businesses. Its critics prefer power to be in the hands of governments. I’d be careful about giving more power to governments.
1. Milton Friedman - Your Greed or Their Greed? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

2. Capitalism and extreme poverty: A global analysis of real wages, human height, and mortality since the long 16th century - https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/117731/1/1_s2.0_S0305750X22002169_main.pdf
Authors
Dylan Sullivan - a Macquarie School of Social Sciences, Macquarie University, Australia
Jason Hickel - Institute for Environmental Science and Technology (ICTA-UAB)
Autonomous University of Barcelona, Spain
International Inequalities Institute, London School of Economics and Political Science, UK
This paper assesses claims that, prior to the 19th century, around 90% of the human population lived in
extreme poverty (defined as the inability to access essential goods), and that global human welfare only
began to improve with the rise of capitalism.
Not exactly hotbeds of conservatism.
3. University of Birmingham: Capitalism and Its Impact on Global Living Standards - https://blog.bham.ac.uk/cityredi/capitalism-and-its-impact-on-global-living-standards/
4. Milton Friedman Speaks: Is Capitalism Humane? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Tf8RN3uiM
5. Milton Friedman - Poverty and Equality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKc6esIi0_U
6. Milton Friedman - https://eportfolios.macaulay.cuny.edu/thorne15/files/2015/03/Cole-Milton-Friedman-on-Income-Inequaity.pdf
7. The Case for Capitalism – https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-capitalist-manifesto-hate-capitalism-too-bad-it-keeps-lifting-millions-out-of-poverty
8. Capitalism’s Triumph - https://www.cato.org/commentary/capitalisms-triumph
9. Capitalism Is Good for the Poor - https://fee.org/articles/capitalism-is-good-for-the-poor/
10. Do Rich People Benefit More from Capitalism than the Poor? - https://austriancenter.com/do-rich-people-benefit-more-capitalism-poor/
11. What is Capitalism - https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Back-to-Basics/Capitalism
12. Capitalism, the Greatest Economic System Ever - https://yipinstitute.org/article/capitalism-the-greatest-economic-system-ever
13. A BRIEF HISTORY OF GLOBAL CAPITALISM -https://www.earth.columbia.edu/sitefiles/file/about/director/pubs/Oxfordreview_winter99.pdf
Another hotbed of conservatism Columbia University
14. Hate capitalism? Here's how it keeps lifting millions out of poverty - https://nationalpost.com/news/world/the-capitalist-manifesto-hate-capitalism-too-bad-it-keeps-lifting-millions-out-of-poverty
15. Arguments For and Against Capitalism - https://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/arguments-for-and-against-capitalism/
16. Losing Our Religion - https://reason.com/2009/02/09/losing-our-religion/
17. Capitalism: Antidote To Poverty - https://www.atlasnetwork.org/books/capitalism-antidote-to-poverty?utm_source=Google%20Ads&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Grant%20Account%20Ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgcH11tSq_wIV7u3jBx23lg6nEAAYASAAEgLXRvD_BwE
18. In defense of the c-word: why capitalism is a force for good - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/in-defence-of-the-c-word-why-capitalism-is-a-force-for-good
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire From the university of Birmingham:
“In the past 200 years, extreme poverty has collapsed from a whopping 94% of the entire world population to less than 10% today”. 60,000 people are escaping extreme poverty every day because of trade. But if capitalism is so good, why are there huge swathes of populations still poor and suffering today? Capitalism isn’t the cause of this poverty but rather that there is a lack of capitalism that affects these areas. Government corruption, war, political instability and other structural problems prevent power being placed into the markets and operating efficiently in these areas.
With huge rises in global wealth, dramatic reduction of poverty and the standard of living reaching new highs, it is calculated that since 1800, the average world citizen today is 120 times better off than their 1800 counterpart. Anyone with an internet connection has far more access to knowledge, education, art and culture that was reserved for high elites and kings not so long ago. Never before have so many people lived so well in history.
@HoraceGreenley So your source is some unnamed professor at a college in Alabama.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire I gave you the link. It has the author's name. It's in the UK
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/index.aspx
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Univ. of Birmingham: https://blog.bham.ac.uk/cityredi/capitalism-and-its-impact-on-global-living-standards/

Author:Author Josh Swan
Published:Posted on 18/03/2020

Try reading once in a while
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire I gave you 18 sources
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Even you will have to admit, that picking one source out of 18 that you believed you could impune by thinking it was a nameless author from Alabama, when in reality it is in the UK, deserves to be mocked.
@HoraceGreenley I was distracted; only saw the last comment.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Nice save...of course it doesn't expiate the intention that your intnet is merely to try to impune my sources.

If you look at the links i provided, the sources for the data are the World Bank, International Monetary Fund, etc.

This is not a compendium of Right Wing nuts spouting off.
@HoraceGreenley I very much doubt you know the definition of the word impune, let alone the word expiate. But I'll have a look at your sources later, since you actually provided some.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire Here we go...go after me now since your first shot failed miserably. You made a laughable mistake so now you resort to ad hominem.

You have revealed your character. It's plain to any reader.
@HoraceGreenley No, I admitted that I fucked up. But instead of being understanding about it, you chose to attack. I responded to your attack.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
@LordShadowfire You still used ad hominem after admitted (sort of) your mistake.