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Conservatives don't understand Marx

Conservatives and Neo - liberals are more likely to caricature and make fun of Karl Marx’s writings and beliefs than offer serious rebuttals to his many ideas. Why? Because Marx’s insights expose deep inconsistencies in cherished right-wing doctrines.

If you want to anger a conservative, just try arguing that Karl Marx might have something worth saying. Or worse, suggest that a man who wrote numerous volumes on everything from German philosophy to the standard assumptions of classical political economy might have a more nuanced theory than “rich people bad, poor people good.”

Yet several decades after the Cold War, plenty of right-wing pundits still can’t be bothered to offer rebuttals to Marx that go beyond glib denunciations. Jordan Peterson has described Marxism as an evil theory and made his name bashing “postmodern neo-Marxism,” despite admitting during one debate that he hasn’t read much more than the Communist Manifesto in the past few decades.

In his book "Don’t Burn This Book" Dave Rubin lumps in socialism with Nazism and fascism by claiming Benito Mussolini was “raised on Karl Marx’s Das Kapital” — ignoring Il Duce’s later efforts to imprison and silence Marxists and other “enemies of the nation.” And most recently, Ben Shapiro’s "How To Destroy America in Three Easy Steps" recycles old tropes about the “nonsense” of Marx’s labor theory of value, while ignoring the irony of praising John Locke for “correctly pointing out that ownership of property is merely an extension of the idea of ownership of your labor; when we remove something from the state of nature and mix our labor with it and join something of our own to it, we thereby make that property our own.”

This tendency to criticize Marx without actually engaging his ideas is especially rich considering Peterson, Rubin, and Shapiro endlessly parrot clichés about the importance of hard work and spirited debate. An easy way to dismiss them would be to just insist they live up to those lofty standards in between appearances on PragerU.

I suggest that conservatives avoid seriously dealing with Marx’s work not just because he was critical of capitalism, wrote some polemical things about religion, or was suspicious of class hierarchy. It is because Marx’s writings reveal deep inconsistences in cherished conservative doctrines.

A go-to argument of conservatives is to dismiss Marx’s “theory of human nature”: either Marx was dangerously naive about the human capacity for evil and selfishness — which shows why his ideal classless society turned out to be such a bust in practice — or he believed that there was no human nature, that we are infinitely plastic beings that could be made and remade by a sufficiently rational and powerful state committed to utopian planning.

Both of these claims are nonsensical. From his early ruminations about our “species being” determined by nature, to his later psychological ruminations about how our desire for recognition and status spurs “commodity fetishism,” Marx was neither utopian nor naive about our potential for hypocrisy, cruelty, and hedonism. Where Marx was innovative was in showing how the historical and economic conditions around us play a major role in shaping our sense of self and behavior.

This doesn’t mean we are purely determined by historical context. But Marx argued that the historical and economic conditions we’re born into provide the starting point we all must navigate. As he put it in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, “men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.”

Parts of this argument should actually appeal to many conservatives. From Edmund Burke to Roger Scruton, a common right-wing complaint has been that radicals portray humans as ahistorical beings that can be understood purely as atomized individuals. Instead, they stressed, every human is embedded in layers of community, with hallowed traditions and morals shaped through history and institutions, including churches and temples, nations, and even “Western civilization.” These “little brigades” affect how we think of ourselves and what we believe.

Conservatives often insisted that ignoring the importance of these historical communities could only lead to disaster. Marx would certainly agree. But he would add that we are also embedded in a historically distinct economic system that profoundly shapes who we are and what we believe.

It’s on this point that many of the same conservative commentators that insist on applying a historical and institutional lens to understand human behavior and communities become ahistoricists. They insist that capitalism simply flows from human nature, that it has always been around and therefore always must be, and that any effort to change it can only yield disaster, as surely as demanding fish ride bicycles
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Human1000 · M
Wealth creation is superior in countries embracing capitalism despite its inherent flaws.

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Gloomy · F
@Human1000 GDP, median income, stocks, employment numbers tell us how good a country is at producing wealth. If the measure of a good economy is people having access to basic needs and a high quality of life, then we have a different situation. GDP can be pushed by working people more hours. Stocks can gain value by lowering the quality of medical benefits. Median income can mean a lot of people are doing really well, and a lot of other folks doing horribly. It all comes down to values. If we care about stocks and GDP, but are not worried about quality of life, then capitalism works pretty well.
Human1000 · M
@Gloomy Having been to West and East Germany, as well as Hungary and Czechoslovakia when they were still nominally “communist” I have to disagree. The quality of life was not good.
Gloomy · F
@Human1000 Statistics tell us that the people percieve their quality of life back then to be higher than it is right now and it wasn't the ideal type of socialism since there was no democracy in the workplace.

Also my response is broad there are many different ways to create a socialist system.
Human1000 · M
@Gloomy I don’t think this applies to my examples, but people may be nostalgic for something, however. There are Stalinists in Russia and MAGA here.
@Human1000 [quote]Wealth creation is superior in countries embracing capitalism despite its inherent flaws.[/quote]

East Germany had State Capitalism, not Socialism. I agree that Western Capitalism is better than State Capitalism, but actual Socialism would be better than both.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo This would be a semantic argument, but I disagree East Germany had any form of capitalism and the term “State Capitalism” is an oxymoron. Without private ownership of profit and means of production, it can’t be capitalism, they are the sine qua non of capitalism. Socialism is a much more malleable term.

“East Germany had a command economy, similar to the economic system in the Soviet Union and other Comecon member states — in contrast to the market economies or mixed economies or other capitalist states. The state established production targets, set prices, and also allocated resources, codifying these decisions in comprehensive plans. The means of production were almost entirely state-owned.“. -Wiki
@Human1000 [quote]Without private ownership of profit and means of production, it can’t be capitalism. [/quote]

State Capitalism is private ownership, but everything is privately owned by the government. Socialism requires democracy so the workers can vote on what to do with the means of productions. Even if not every single business is nationalized, a socialist society is democratic first.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo There is no such thing as privately owned by the government. There is private ownership and state ownership (other forms of corporate ownership, but that is still private)

Mixing the terms up makes it difficult to have a meaningful conversation.

I sense these new terms are polemical.
Gloomy · F
@Human1000 If the government owns and controls industries via a government that gets re elected and has term limits would be socialist for example but in an authoritarian way without term limits and workers democracy the state is run by rich elitists who have a monopoly therefore it being actually more similar to capitalism.
Human1000 · M
@Gloomy I think it’s important to distinguish a plan for a future political economy and what has existed.

It sounds like you are describing some plan for socialism.
@Human1000 "State Capitalism" isn't a new term. It's been used since the 19th century.

A company is either owned by a minority of the people in the company, all the people in the company, or the entire population. The former is Capitalism, the latter two are forms of Socialism.

If the government owns a company and there is no democracy, then that's Capitalism. A small minority of people owns a company that the other workers have no control over. Without democracy, it's private ownership.
Like I said, Western Capitalism is the lesser evil to State Capitalism, but they're both exploitative.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo I appreciate the correction. However, if the state controls production it is not capitalism, as the terms are [i]commonly[/i] used.

I’ve read about the term and see how it’s used for specific nationalized industries and has polemical value for guys like Chomsky.

I am also not surprised it was coined by Engels, and used by marxists. With that context I understand how you are using the term.
@Human1000 I really don't see how it's not private ownership if the government owns an industry without democracy.
But either way, East Germany didn't have Socialism because it didn't have democracy.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo In the specialized world of Marxist and socialist based terms and descriptions, I understand how you are using it.

I am using the common definition and you are using one developed for those who seek a more utopian vision of socialism.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo

In other words,

“As a term and concept, “state capitalism” has been used by various socialists, including anarchists, Marxists, Leninists, left communists, Marxist–Leninists and Trotskyists.”
@Human1000 But the "common definition" is useless. Conservatives use "socialist" the same way they use "woke."

I would also argue that being woke is a good thing, but if we're going by the "common definition," it means nothing.
@Human1000 Oh, you mean with State Capitalism.

So yeah, the term was coined by Socialists, but it still makes perfect sense within the context of Capitalism. State Capitalism is private ownership, only the ownership is by the government.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo Well, the good news for me is that we agree on what the common definition is. It’s the readily accepted one as well.

Your use of the term is for socialists to contain failures like East Germany. At least you don’t praise these countries like some have.
@Human1000 Either way, the point is that East Germany never had Socialism. In fact, Socialists recognized the problem of state-owned industry without democracy before East Germany was a country.

If Capitalists want to disown countries like East Germany and the Soviet Union, fine, I get that you want democratic Capitalism. But even within the democratic world, the countries closer to Socialism have the better living standards.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo Those Warsaw Pact countries were not part of the West or a variety of capitalism. That’s a bizarre revisionist history.
@Human1000 Well I would say they had State Capitalism. And even at the time, most Leftists recognized this.
Human1000 · M
@BohemianBoo Yes, I understand that. I learned this today, so thanks.