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SlaveEt · 36-40, F
I figure when they start showing the lithium mines, and the labor and labor conditions used to produce these batteries, this idea will die rather quickly. Oh, and when people figure out how much it will all cost, lol.
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ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@SlaveEt More lithium is produced from purification of lithium salts dissolved in brine pumped to the surface and evaporated than is produced my mining lithium ore. This can be made quite clean if the regulations and enforcement are strict enough.
SW-User
I would love to embrace the idea of driving a fully electric car and I fully support clean energy in other ways but at present the infrastructure for charging isn't suitably in place in the UK. Currently it means a lot of work planning a journey to fit in charging, often going miles out of the way. Also because the cars are all automatic, it creates extra wear on tyres because you brake more. The government will soon introduce road fund tax to electric car users so it's also not as attractive to go electric as it used to be.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@SW-User Some cars have adjustable regeneration rates. Some are designed specifically for one pedal driving like Teslas. If the hill is very steep then my Tesla S might need a little braking assistance but not often and not much.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@ArishMell @SW-User The Vegvesen in Norway (Roads Authority) has already published several variations on the theme of road pricing and annual fees to replace the equivalent of Road Fund income. It seems that neither country has anyone with imagination or common sense in government or the civil service, they just want to replace one regressive tax system with one that will be equally regressive or worse.
The logical solution, in my opinion, is to declare that access to the roads is a right and not a privilege to be paid for. Then the roads should be funded from general taxation. This avoids loading the costs on the poorest segment of the road using public as well as removing a substantial amount of bureaucracy.
The logical solution, in my opinion, is to declare that access to the roads is a right and not a privilege to be paid for. Then the roads should be funded from general taxation. This avoids loading the costs on the poorest segment of the road using public as well as removing a substantial amount of bureaucracy.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@ninalanyon The UK roads already are funded from general taxes revenue.
The supposed Road Fund Tax just goes to the Treasury along with every other revenues - including the compound tax on fuels: [VAT on (Retail + Duty)] and the equivalent on all insurance premiums.
I think the difficulty is not how the money is collected and allocated so much as governments of all flavours seemingly unable to address simple, practical problems with simple, practical answers.
In essence we already have "road pricing" by the taxes on fuel, so the further you drive or the thirstier your car, the more you pay; but politicians and Treasuries seem unable to see that!
The supposed Road Fund Tax just goes to the Treasury along with every other revenues - including the compound tax on fuels: [VAT on (Retail + Duty)] and the equivalent on all insurance premiums.
I think the difficulty is not how the money is collected and allocated so much as governments of all flavours seemingly unable to address simple, practical problems with simple, practical answers.
In essence we already have "road pricing" by the taxes on fuel, so the further you drive or the thirstier your car, the more you pay; but politicians and Treasuries seem unable to see that!
SethGreene531 · M
Which will come with roving gangs of pranksters, unplugging vehicles at night and in charge stations.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SethGreene531 ???? I don't think they'd pinch them....
SethGreene531 · M
@ArishMell .....or whatever....I can't see them as a high theft target unless their black market value paralells a tesla, or range rover, etc.
The scrap metal value in their motor windings, and batteries --just like catalytic converter theft--is the real enticement.
The scrap metal value in their motor windings, and batteries --just like catalytic converter theft--is the real enticement.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SethGreene531 Ah, that's if they steal the whole car but I was thinking of opportunist charger-cable thefts, following the comment about practical-jokers "just" unplugging them in the street.
deadgerbil · 26-30
When I enter the market to get a car, it will most likely be electric. I have no reason to get a car anytime soon tho
deadgerbil · 26-30
@Scarfface definitely. They are great to have. I use my grandmother's car bc she doesn't use it that much. Everyday things like shopping would suck ass if I had to use public transit or walk.
For me I like that electric cars are becoming wide spread. They have their issues which hopefully get ironed out like how stuff for them is sourced
For me I like that electric cars are becoming wide spread. They have their issues which hopefully get ironed out like how stuff for them is sourced
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@deadgerbil I'd much rather do my shopping at a local store but because everyone has cars that can drive to a supermarket I have to get one too. The local shop closed down because of the supermarket. It's a self destroying prophecy.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@deadgerbil
Everyday things like shopping would suck ass if I had to use public transit or walk.
Found the American 😇
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
No.They're impractical for almost all of Australia currently.
And EV utes/4wd's are totally stupid and useless as they cannot get more than about 150 km of range towing a 3-ish tonne load before requiring a 3 to 4 hour recharge stop. note there are currently no EV utes/4wd's available here.
If the F150 lightning was here you'd see so many of them stopped on the side of the road with fully discharged battery modules after trying to tow their 3.5 tonne aluminium mobile toilet/shower/kitchen/bedroom or huge boat or big horse float and dying before reaching the next EV public recharge point that is actually working, and things like EV ute/4wd and trucks will require *massive* capacity recharging facilities totally off the scale of what exists now to 'fast charge' EV cars.
Stuff like that just does not exist anywhere in Australia yet.
This is why the Telsa Semi is still a joke product and the Cybertruck is even more of a joke product. Practical realities of Australia ruin their viability instantly.
You need to drive an EV car about half a million miles to reach 'enviromental parity' with the 'costs' of the inputs to make them even with zero tailpipe emissions, so EV's are not 'clean and green'.
And EV utes/4wd's are totally stupid and useless as they cannot get more than about 150 km of range towing a 3-ish tonne load before requiring a 3 to 4 hour recharge stop. note there are currently no EV utes/4wd's available here.
If the F150 lightning was here you'd see so many of them stopped on the side of the road with fully discharged battery modules after trying to tow their 3.5 tonne aluminium mobile toilet/shower/kitchen/bedroom or huge boat or big horse float and dying before reaching the next EV public recharge point that is actually working, and things like EV ute/4wd and trucks will require *massive* capacity recharging facilities totally off the scale of what exists now to 'fast charge' EV cars.
Stuff like that just does not exist anywhere in Australia yet.
This is why the Telsa Semi is still a joke product and the Cybertruck is even more of a joke product. Practical realities of Australia ruin their viability instantly.
You need to drive an EV car about half a million miles to reach 'enviromental parity' with the 'costs' of the inputs to make them even with zero tailpipe emissions, so EV's are not 'clean and green'.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@zonavar68 I accept the lack of charging facilities, their reliability doubts and huge distances; but you can't condemn battery-electric cars for not being capable of tasks for which they probably not intended - very heavy leisure towing over very long distances.
Such battery off-road / towing cars that do exist are more likely aimed at building-sites, quarries and farms with proper, industrial, high-rate chargers installed; not towing absurdly large caravans or boats across a continent with huge distances between towns.
The outcome you suggest would not be the fault of the vehicles, but of buyers not properly investigating their suitability for the chosen purposes!
I do agree though with your comment about them being not as "green" made out, though I doubt your figure of 500 000 miles. It does depend heavily too on the way in which the bulk of the nation's electricity is generated.
Such battery off-road / towing cars that do exist are more likely aimed at building-sites, quarries and farms with proper, industrial, high-rate chargers installed; not towing absurdly large caravans or boats across a continent with huge distances between towns.
The outcome you suggest would not be the fault of the vehicles, but of buyers not properly investigating their suitability for the chosen purposes!
I do agree though with your comment about them being not as "green" made out, though I doubt your figure of 500 000 miles. It does depend heavily too on the way in which the bulk of the nation's electricity is generated.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@ArishMell I don't know what it's like across the USA but here in Australia households that can afford rooftop solar and/or batteries are 10x more likely to consider electric vehicles as an option because they are already 'sucked into' the greenwashing debate via their pre-existing investments in so-called 'renewable' energy. Energy is only ever transformed - neither created nor destroyed. As humans we don't have the knowledge or understanding to 'control' the amount of energy present in the matter of the universe (humans are part of that matter). Rooftop solar + batteries + electric vehicles are quickly becoming a 'have' (ie. elite) vs 'have not' (ie. proletariat pleb) issue here, and I expect that'll be the case in most so-called 1st-world economies.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@zonavar68 Thank you. A thought provoking response.....
I do know the basic properties of energy but I wonder how may politicians etc, know it, or come to that, know the difference and relationship between energy and power. I suspect some imagine they are the same thing!
I'm in the UK not USA, but although we don't have the vast distances common to Australia and America, range and charger availability are still serious problems. Elsewhere, Hippie Joe has outlined the problems of owning a battery-electric car in his Canada; but they might also apply in some parts of the British Isles such as the Highlands of Scotland.
However, the matter here in Britain is not as heavily politicised along Party lines as in the States. All parties agree on the basics and aims, and simply argue on how to get there - and how to pay for it.
Nor is there a sort of class-warfare aspect to having solar panels and the like. Those simply come down to affordability plus technical feasibility.
What we do have though, in Britain, is vast numbers of homes where if you can afford solar panels on the roof and it is worth fitting them anyway, there is nowhere to park a battery-powered car to recharge it! It's thought anything from a third to half of British motorists are in that situation.
I am one, living in an early-20C terraced house with a very narrow front garden, in a narrow street built long before car ownership became something more than a status-symbol for the wealthy few. Others live in blocks of flats with limited parking, flats above town centre shops with no nearby parking, modern housing-estates that ape the 19C style of terraced homes with no front gardens, or in homes built on hill-slopes giving nowhere to park against the house anyway.
However, I don't see owning a battery car becoming a status symbol of the haves over the have-nots, here, but I do see many people in future simply being unable to afford a car.
I do know the basic properties of energy but I wonder how may politicians etc, know it, or come to that, know the difference and relationship between energy and power. I suspect some imagine they are the same thing!
I'm in the UK not USA, but although we don't have the vast distances common to Australia and America, range and charger availability are still serious problems. Elsewhere, Hippie Joe has outlined the problems of owning a battery-electric car in his Canada; but they might also apply in some parts of the British Isles such as the Highlands of Scotland.
However, the matter here in Britain is not as heavily politicised along Party lines as in the States. All parties agree on the basics and aims, and simply argue on how to get there - and how to pay for it.
Nor is there a sort of class-warfare aspect to having solar panels and the like. Those simply come down to affordability plus technical feasibility.
What we do have though, in Britain, is vast numbers of homes where if you can afford solar panels on the roof and it is worth fitting them anyway, there is nowhere to park a battery-powered car to recharge it! It's thought anything from a third to half of British motorists are in that situation.
I am one, living in an early-20C terraced house with a very narrow front garden, in a narrow street built long before car ownership became something more than a status-symbol for the wealthy few. Others live in blocks of flats with limited parking, flats above town centre shops with no nearby parking, modern housing-estates that ape the 19C style of terraced homes with no front gardens, or in homes built on hill-slopes giving nowhere to park against the house anyway.
However, I don't see owning a battery car becoming a status symbol of the haves over the have-nots, here, but I do see many people in future simply being unable to afford a car.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
I was discussing these things with some friends today.
I am afraid I cannot cite his source or verify this but one quoted a recent experiment to compare the economy of two return trips from Tiverton (Devon) to Bristol; one by Diesel the other by electric, cars of approximate equivalence.
From my Road Atlas, Tiverton to Almonsbury Interchange just beyond Bristol give roughly 150 miles round-trip, mainly cruising on a motorway with few hills. The cost difference was enormous. He claimed to have spent about £45 for the Diesel fuel (somewhere around 25 litres), but £80 for the electricity (whose costs apparently vary by supplier, time of day, place...).
Also of course a full tank of Diesel should complete that trip comfortably; whereas the battery car needed some "topping up" charge at the start and at the driver's Bristol destination, that taking appreciably longer than any liquid fuelling!
Now, I know perfectly well that my quoting verbatim a quote of one informal experiment I cannot cite, is very poor and I do not normally stoop to that sort of "soshul-meejuh" level, which is by no means science or statistics. Nevertheless it does suggest a point needing investigating properly.
Also his claim of £45 seems on the high side as that would give around 32mpg - I don't know what he was driving but any decent, modern, ordinary Diesel car should use much less than £45 worth for 150 miles. They are nearer 45-55mpg, some better. 32mpg would be on the low side even for the petrol equivalent! So it's possibly what the driver bought, not used, which would be far harder to determine, short of fitting a consumption-meter. (UK gallon, not US Gallon; but fuels are sold by the litre while cars are rated by miles per gallon.)
.
Or if you like:
If I was just about rich enough to buy an electric car:
Am I still rich enough to pay for its electricity and its very rapid depreciation (set by battery life and cost); and I can cope with potentially significant but very unpredictable journey time increases?
Especially once electricity sold as vehicle "fuel" becomes subject to tax if it is not already, always at % rates, as inevitably it will have to be.
I am afraid I cannot cite his source or verify this but one quoted a recent experiment to compare the economy of two return trips from Tiverton (Devon) to Bristol; one by Diesel the other by electric, cars of approximate equivalence.
From my Road Atlas, Tiverton to Almonsbury Interchange just beyond Bristol give roughly 150 miles round-trip, mainly cruising on a motorway with few hills. The cost difference was enormous. He claimed to have spent about £45 for the Diesel fuel (somewhere around 25 litres), but £80 for the electricity (whose costs apparently vary by supplier, time of day, place...).
Also of course a full tank of Diesel should complete that trip comfortably; whereas the battery car needed some "topping up" charge at the start and at the driver's Bristol destination, that taking appreciably longer than any liquid fuelling!
Now, I know perfectly well that my quoting verbatim a quote of one informal experiment I cannot cite, is very poor and I do not normally stoop to that sort of "soshul-meejuh" level, which is by no means science or statistics. Nevertheless it does suggest a point needing investigating properly.
Also his claim of £45 seems on the high side as that would give around 32mpg - I don't know what he was driving but any decent, modern, ordinary Diesel car should use much less than £45 worth for 150 miles. They are nearer 45-55mpg, some better. 32mpg would be on the low side even for the petrol equivalent! So it's possibly what the driver bought, not used, which would be far harder to determine, short of fitting a consumption-meter. (UK gallon, not US Gallon; but fuels are sold by the litre while cars are rated by miles per gallon.)
.
Or if you like:
If I was just about rich enough to buy an electric car:
Am I still rich enough to pay for its electricity and its very rapid depreciation (set by battery life and cost); and I can cope with potentially significant but very unpredictable journey time increases?
Especially once electricity sold as vehicle "fuel" becomes subject to tax if it is not already, always at % rates, as inevitably it will have to be.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Scarfface Indeed - such a one-off test really only raises the question, not answers it properly. I would imagine his driving style is the same in both cars, so being heavy-footed would not make much difference.
The same friend who told of this has previously remarked on the economy of his car, a medium-sized saloon. Diesel, it returns around 50mpg or better, and he admits he does drive it quite hard. I obtain only about 40mpg I think, from my petrol car of roughly similar size.
Even his large work van returns more than 30mpg with its Diesel engine and 6-speed manual transmission; certainly more economical than the previous one.
When I started driving, in the early 1970s, we thought it good if the average family saloon or estate car offered even 30mpg! By comparison, another friend's petrol-fuelled Series Two LandRover with free-wheel hubs gave about 25mpg in 2-wheel drive.
Engine designs have advanced considerably over the last few decades and the modern Diesel (always better than petrol) engine is far more efficient and cleaner than its predecessors were, or than the anti-Diesel campaigners want us to think.
(I suspect many of the campaigners have no clue what "Ad-blue" is for, and I am not even sure how many know the relationships between fuel, energy and power!)
...
What of course our descendants will have to face is that even if we choose to abandon coal, natural-gas and petroleum, those will run out. Either way will have to replace what those give apart from fuels, and to find sustainable replacements whose manufacture and use do not bring serious environmental problems of their own.
All the focus is on limiting emitting carbon-dioxide (not "carbon"!) and generating electricity (not "energy" although electricity is a form of energy). Nothing about materials.
The same friend who told of this has previously remarked on the economy of his car, a medium-sized saloon. Diesel, it returns around 50mpg or better, and he admits he does drive it quite hard. I obtain only about 40mpg I think, from my petrol car of roughly similar size.
Even his large work van returns more than 30mpg with its Diesel engine and 6-speed manual transmission; certainly more economical than the previous one.
When I started driving, in the early 1970s, we thought it good if the average family saloon or estate car offered even 30mpg! By comparison, another friend's petrol-fuelled Series Two LandRover with free-wheel hubs gave about 25mpg in 2-wheel drive.
Engine designs have advanced considerably over the last few decades and the modern Diesel (always better than petrol) engine is far more efficient and cleaner than its predecessors were, or than the anti-Diesel campaigners want us to think.
(I suspect many of the campaigners have no clue what "Ad-blue" is for, and I am not even sure how many know the relationships between fuel, energy and power!)
...
What of course our descendants will have to face is that even if we choose to abandon coal, natural-gas and petroleum, those will run out. Either way will have to replace what those give apart from fuels, and to find sustainable replacements whose manufacture and use do not bring serious environmental problems of their own.
All the focus is on limiting emitting carbon-dioxide (not "carbon"!) and generating electricity (not "energy" although electricity is a form of energy). Nothing about materials.
Penny · 46-50, F
they cant force us to buy electric cars
Penny · 46-50, F
@SW-User i see a typo . no i don thtink they are safer. thats the point. plus a friend who has one says theyre really powerful cars. i cant drive over a 6 cylinder or else ill up in a ditch with my lead foot
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Penny
they cant force us to buy electric cars
I suppose not. They also can't force you to recycle, quit smoking, or stop driving drunk, if you don't really want to.No... brand new cars are still ridiculously expensive. I'll stick with petrol and diesel until the government gets with the times and forces landlords to provide home charging points by law.
Given that many people don't have drives or parking spaces in my area, I don't yet see how the infrastructure required for home charging can be fitted or who's going to be paying for installation and usage of said points - particularly those fitted on the roadside???
Like with petrol and diesel, I don't mind paying for what I use myself but I'm not buying the entire tanker load for whoever else to top up their tank at my expense...
Given that many people don't have drives or parking spaces in my area, I don't yet see how the infrastructure required for home charging can be fitted or who's going to be paying for installation and usage of said points - particularly those fitted on the roadside???
Like with petrol and diesel, I don't mind paying for what I use myself but I'm not buying the entire tanker load for whoever else to top up their tank at my expense...
@Scarfface Electrifying and improving that only works if you have enough men and women to drive them, though... we have a chronic shortage of bus drivers and only one company with a monopoly in this area.
Even the perk of free bus travel for them and their family isn't enough to coax more people to go for their PSV and work for this company.
Even the perk of free bus travel for them and their family isn't enough to coax more people to go for their PSV and work for this company.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@HootyTheNightOwl I actually looked at a bus driver job, the reviews are shocking 😬
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl There are shortages of train drivers too, in parts of the UK.
Why, I don't know. It's not as if the pay is low although there is a lot of unsociable hours work, and it carries very high responsibilities.
A lot of nerve too: as one driver I know told me, you still have to know where you are and keep to time even when driving a passenger-train at 100mph on very dark, foggy nights when you can barely see the rails only yards in front of you. They do have signal-indicators etc. in the cab, but as aids and safety-devices, not replacements for route knowledge.
One difficulty is that you can't just recruit a driver from one design of train on one route, for example London (Paddington) - Bristol, and expect him or her simply to take over another design on the London (Waterloo) - Weymouth, or London (Kings Cross) - Edinburgh, routes.
Why, I don't know. It's not as if the pay is low although there is a lot of unsociable hours work, and it carries very high responsibilities.
A lot of nerve too: as one driver I know told me, you still have to know where you are and keep to time even when driving a passenger-train at 100mph on very dark, foggy nights when you can barely see the rails only yards in front of you. They do have signal-indicators etc. in the cab, but as aids and safety-devices, not replacements for route knowledge.
One difficulty is that you can't just recruit a driver from one design of train on one route, for example London (Paddington) - Bristol, and expect him or her simply to take over another design on the London (Waterloo) - Weymouth, or London (Kings Cross) - Edinburgh, routes.
ChiefJustWalks · 26-30
I dont trust electric cars. They're getting too smart. One day they're gonna snitch on me & drive me straight to jail against my will & I'm not down wit it
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@ChiefJustWalks Snoop Dogg should sponsor a brand of electric car that knows snitches get stitches.
CestManan · 46-50, F
@ChiefJustWalks That reminds me of an old episode of Twilight zone where this guy does a hit and run of some guy on a bicycle and the cyclist dies.
Anyways his car is basically trying to get him to turn himself in. At the end, that finally happens.
Anyways his car is basically trying to get him to turn himself in. At the end, that finally happens.
CestManan · 46-50, F
Not if I do not have to.
They have been talking about this since at least the early 90's but electric cars have their own sets of problems.
Like when the batteries finally die, replacing them costs about the same as a brand new car.
That is the nature of electronics throughout history - cheaper to replace than fix.
Plus those things are not any better for the environment than gas cars. Maybe less pollution during operation but production and mining the materials for the batteries - yeah look that up.
They have been talking about this since at least the early 90's but electric cars have their own sets of problems.
Like when the batteries finally die, replacing them costs about the same as a brand new car.
That is the nature of electronics throughout history - cheaper to replace than fix.
Plus those things are not any better for the environment than gas cars. Maybe less pollution during operation but production and mining the materials for the batteries - yeah look that up.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@CestManan I know. That's why I bought a 10-year-old hybrid, instead of getting something newer.
ElwoodBlues · M
@Nadie says
And, in theory, the US has the electric capacity now.
BTW, lithium batteries are great because they recycle so well.
And, lithium salts dissolved in hot geothermal wells has minimal environmental impact.
They really gotta figure out where they're all getting charged first.
In the US we've been phasing in electric cars slowly and we will continue to do so. So far, the grid has been keeping up with the load.And, in theory, the US has the electric capacity now.
If all US cars were EVs, they would need a total of 1,106.6TWh, which is 27.6% of what the American grid produced in 2020.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/Is There Enough Electricity for EVs? Yes. Here’s Who Will Charge Them.
https://www.barrons.com/articles/theres-enough-electricity-in-the-world-for-electric-vehicles-heres-who-will-charge-them-51605368406 The world has 8,000 gigawatts of installed electricity generation capacity, according to the International Energy Agency. In theory, if the capacity ran 24-7 it could generate 69 million gigawatt hours of electricity annually.
The world consumed about 27 million gigawatt hours of electricity in 2019. That electricity warmed homes and ran businesses. What’s more, the world consumed the equivalent of roughly 28 million gigawatt hours of electrical energy to power its cars and trucks. That energy, of course, was stored in liquid fuel. Power plants didn’t have to generate it. Gasoline and diesel make most of the world’s vehicles go.
So 27 plus 28 is 56. The world needs 56 million gigawatt hours to keep the lights on as well as drive cars and trucks. There is 69 million gigawatt hours of capacity.No problem. But the generating capacity of wind and solar, of course, can’t be “on” 100% of the time. And even coal, nuclear, and hydro power plants have to take maintenance downtime. Still, there looks to be some spare generating capacity and the world’s 2 billion or so vehicles won’t convert to battery power all at once.
The world consumed about 27 million gigawatt hours of electricity in 2019. That electricity warmed homes and ran businesses. What’s more, the world consumed the equivalent of roughly 28 million gigawatt hours of electrical energy to power its cars and trucks. That energy, of course, was stored in liquid fuel. Power plants didn’t have to generate it. Gasoline and diesel make most of the world’s vehicles go.
So 27 plus 28 is 56. The world needs 56 million gigawatt hours to keep the lights on as well as drive cars and trucks. There is 69 million gigawatt hours of capacity.No problem. But the generating capacity of wind and solar, of course, can’t be “on” 100% of the time. And even coal, nuclear, and hydro power plants have to take maintenance downtime. Still, there looks to be some spare generating capacity and the world’s 2 billion or so vehicles won’t convert to battery power all at once.
BTW, lithium batteries are great because they recycle so well.
Study: Recycled Lithium Batteries as Good as Newly Mined > Cathodes made with novel direct-recycling beat commercial materials
15 Oct 2021
https://spectrum.ieee.org/recycled-batteries-good-as-newly-mined15 Oct 2021
And, lithium salts dissolved in hot geothermal wells has minimal environmental impact.
The new 'gold rush' for green lithium
Geothermal brine could become a promising and sustainable source of an essential element for the renewable energy transition
24th November 2020
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201124-how-geothermal-lithium-could-revolutionise-green-energyGeothermal brine could become a promising and sustainable source of an essential element for the renewable energy transition
24th November 2020
ElwoodBlues · M
@sunsporter1649 !!! NEWS FLASH !!!
Even if you plug in at 5PM, the car is programmed to charge when electrical loads are lighter.
"See they got these thangs see, called pooters, see, make 'em do smart things, see, charge in the middle of the night, see."
Now do you understand???
Even if you plug in at 5PM, the car is programmed to charge when electrical loads are lighter.
"See they got these thangs see, called pooters, see, make 'em do smart things, see, charge in the middle of the night, see."
Now do you understand???
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
ElwoodBlues · M
If I did, I’d hope the local FD had a tanker with a capacity of at least 30,000 gals. of water should my car’s battery start a fire.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@soar2newhighs FedEx was 2004 2013 for the Boeing 787 battery fires. Sorry about the confusion since I posted 777 when it was two 787s that had battery fires.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@soar2newhighs It's up to you to prove they didn't.
@hippyjoe1955 Looked them up. Thanks.
redredred · M
Electricity is produced for the power grid largely by burning coal, gas or oil.
What’s your question?
What’s your question?
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@redredred I'm just saying, it would be nice if you came up with actual evidence for just one of the numerous things you claim every single day.
I don't expect it to happen. People like you never do back your shit up. But I'm saying it would be nice.
I don't expect it to happen. People like you never do back your shit up. But I'm saying it would be nice.
redredred · M
@LordShadowfire Okay, little boy. Since the complexities of Google are beyond your little brain here’s a link.
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_production.html
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_production.html
kodiac · 22-25, M
What happens when a big storm hits and half the state is out of power for days or weeks? What happens when a million people come home from work and all plug in their cars at the same time ?
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
@kodiac when they sell elektricity by the gallon I will buy into their bullschiff
CestManan · 46-50, F
@kodiac Right now we just do not have the infrastructure for them to be practical.
Yeah they might be great for bopping around town but what if someone is making a trip longer than 300 miles?
Plus like I said - when the batteries ARE dead, they cost almost the same to replace as a whole new car.
Yeah they might be great for bopping around town but what if someone is making a trip longer than 300 miles?
Plus like I said - when the batteries ARE dead, they cost almost the same to replace as a whole new car.
Doctrble · 46-50, M
Electric car where i live doesnt work. In winter they have issues with batteries exploding.
Better yet you burn coal to produce the electricity so why is it an advantage?
Better yet you burn coal to produce the electricity so why is it an advantage?
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@Doctrble from what I know burning fosil fuel to create electricity at a big efficient power station is a lot cleaner than millions of individual inefficient cars burning it's own fuel for power.
I do think they have the advantage on cleaner transport.
Exploding batteries is a different thing, they do self heating lithium batteries now.
I do think they have the advantage on cleaner transport.
Exploding batteries is a different thing, they do self heating lithium batteries now.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Doctrble I don't know why it is that everybody keeps saying we burn coal for electricity. Here in Oregon, we use mostly hydroelectric, in spite of Donald Trump trying to repopularize coal.
Edit: Damn voice to text.
Edit: Damn voice to text.
Jlhzfromep · M
My last electric car kept flying off the track when I made it go too fast around the corner... I kept having to pick it up and put it back on
SisterShadow · F
cars are for failed cities... if you live in a proper town you only need a bike
Funlov · M
@Scarfface here’s the thing it’s not the vehicles it’s the waste so if people stop wasting so much, we live in a throwaway society so if you want to do something for the environment, do it right where are you live read in your own community simple is that I’m in the oil and gas industry in Alberta Canada. It’s not gonna change no matter white people governments say solar power doesn’t work when power doesn’t work to talk to life.
Driver2 · M
No way , they are not ready to replace the engine yet .
Plus the batteries are produced from slave labor . Adults and children
The used batteries are not recycled s as bd must be dumped in landfills.
So much for that . Someday yes we need more time to perfect the technology.
First electric cars were around since the 1900s
Plus the batteries are produced from slave labor . Adults and children
The used batteries are not recycled s as bd must be dumped in landfills.
So much for that . Someday yes we need more time to perfect the technology.
First electric cars were around since the 1900s
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
Driver2 · M
@ninalanyon plenty you need to resort to the oldest form if heat because the green energy is a failure . Also if Europe did nit abandon oil & gAs you would have plenty of energy
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@Driver2 But I do have plenty of energy. And wood is just one source of it. In what way is it a failure? My home is warm, my car is charged, my computers and mobile phones are all working, all powered by renewable energy.
Europe in general has successfully reduced its energy use so the reliance on fossil fuels is slightly reduced and anyway no one has abandoned gas, they just get from non-Russian sources.
And lastly, we haven't 'resorted' to wood burning. We have been using wood as a major space heating heat source here in Norway forever.
Europe in general has successfully reduced its energy use so the reliance on fossil fuels is slightly reduced and anyway no one has abandoned gas, they just get from non-Russian sources.
And lastly, we haven't 'resorted' to wood burning. We have been using wood as a major space heating heat source here in Norway forever.
I've researched the brands, their different capacities and their prices.
I have to wait until I sell this place.
Until then I don't have the means.
Even a loan is beyond me to pay back.
I have to wait until I sell this place.
Until then I don't have the means.
Even a loan is beyond me to pay back.
Repete · 61-69, M
I got rid of my last car 2 years ago , I don’t need one, I don’t like driving but had to have a car for work now I have retired and gone back to a bicycle, I like them. Last year I decided to get an electric, pedal assist bicycle I’m happy with it.
ElwoodBlues · M
I've been driving a plug-in hybrid for the last four years. All my around-town driving is electric; on my few long trips I burn gas.
My wife is preparing to replace her 17 year old Prius; we are looking hard at the 2023 Prius Prime plug-in hybrid.
My wife is preparing to replace her 17 year old Prius; we are looking hard at the 2023 Prius Prime plug-in hybrid.
They really gotta figure out where they're all getting charged first.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Nadie I heard the state of California is urging people to stop charging their electric cars, because the grid can't handle it. This is the problem when you only move forward in solving one part of the bigger problem.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@LordShadowfire Quite a few EVs will have V2G (vehicle to grid) in the future. This will help stabilize the grid because the EV will be able to decide to sell back to the grid if the price is high enough. Most grids have plenty of total capacity for EVs, the challenge is coping with peak usage when a large number of people charge all at the same time. This is easily dealt with by connecting the cars to the electricity market so that they know the real time price and can defer charging until it is cheaper. The British national Grid has published papers on the subject and concluded that upgrades to generating and transmission capacity that are already planned are sufficient to cope with the increased demand.
bowman81 · M
No way!
Budwick · 70-79, M
You Bet!
I just wanna feel good about keeping these kids employed!
I just wanna feel good about keeping these kids employed!
senghenydd · M
Not yet I own a fairly new petrol car I live in the UK the UK will stop selling new Petrol and Diesel cars in 2030 so there's still a few years left.
Personally I think hydrogen cars will beat electric cars I would hope there's a few hydrogen cars available when the time comes.
Personally I think hydrogen cars will beat electric cars I would hope there's a few hydrogen cars available when the time comes.
senghenydd · M
@SW-User I heard the Japanese were investing heavily in hydrogen watched reports on one of the news channels. Hydrogen cars can be refuelled quickly electric cars take too long to charge we'll have to wait and see I hope hydrogen wins a place in tomorrows motoring.
senghenydd · M
@Penny
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏
#JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America.
JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.”
👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏
#JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America.
JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.”
👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻
senghenydd · M
@senghenydd
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏
#JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America.
JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.”
I notice the engine is painted green as it should be of course.
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏
#JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America.
JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.”
I notice the engine is painted green as it should be of course.
Quetzalcoatlus · 46-50, M
Yes as soon as I’m ready to get rid of my old one. The next car will be electric.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
Another thing to remember is that all existing transport systems and infrastructure are a product of human design and development - ie. the classic 'convenience trade-off' for a price.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@ArishMell And because anything commercialised has to make a profit, the majority of the automotive industry regardless of the philosophy exists to benefit the elite in control of the businesses and governments that leverage huge revenue and tax flows out of people who want to or need to use/own/operate transport systems of any sort.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@zonavar68 I don't go along with words like "elite" but I agree that motoring is very heavily taxed in many ways.
Yet if governments did not levy the taxes how could they pay for all the public services we all need - including roads to drive our costly cars on, or the railways, etc.?
Yet if governments did not levy the taxes how could they pay for all the public services we all need - including roads to drive our costly cars on, or the railways, etc.?
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
I'm rather hoping that the concept of private car ownership will begin to fade at the same time.
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@SunshineGirl That requires a massive radical change to the entire structure of societies, workplaces, transport infrastructure, etc. For example, I do shiftwork and it would be impossible to car-share or car-pool with the irregularity of my shift start/finish times.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@LordShadowfire If housing supply could meet demand in my city, many more people would not require any transport at all to get to and from work.
SunshineGirl · 36-40, F
@zonavar68 Yes, it certainly would do. But a good start would be to repopulate city centres.
JustAmber · 36-40, F
Nope
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Nope. I may be crazy but I am not stupid. EVs are a flash in the pan and despite their hype they will soon fade in popularity as it becomes more and more evident that they are not good for the environment or practical as reliable mode of transportation.
silent killer
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
@fakable I know I'm used to cars making noise. Those thigs are so quiet I dont notice them
zonavar68 · 56-60, M
@SunshineGirl I don't live in a big city like Sydney, etc. and I am 30 km away from where I work renting as that's where I can afford, and I still cannot afford to buy a house. And I've never bought a new new car ever.
Smoothsailing121 · 31-35, M
No
Smoothsailing121 · 31-35, M
@Smoothsailing121 I want a 1973 shelby gt mustang
sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M
Funlov · M
Never
ArishMell · 70-79, M
No. I could not afford one!
I'd also have to rely entirely on public charging-points and so far I am not convinced of their availability, compatibility and reliability now or within the next 5 years at least... as the queues at them lengthen.
Nor have I yet to see ones that allow direct payment with displayed costs and bank-card readers, instead of having to buy a "smart"'phone with its high fees and probably slapping unknown middle-men fees on top of the retail cost at the charger..
I hope petrol will still be available for the next 10-20 years, which ought see me, and others of my age, out.
I'd also have to rely entirely on public charging-points and so far I am not convinced of their availability, compatibility and reliability now or within the next 5 years at least... as the queues at them lengthen.
Nor have I yet to see ones that allow direct payment with displayed costs and bank-card readers, instead of having to buy a "smart"'phone with its high fees and probably slapping unknown middle-men fees on top of the retail cost at the charger..
I hope petrol will still be available for the next 10-20 years, which ought see me, and others of my age, out.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
I don't think so. Id like to build efficient public transportation, but the USA has this war on sustainability. They're interested in my debt and enslavement.
Spoiledbrat · F
I think people take from each other and sometimes it's one sided. Big companies that get rich off people and pay them shit in return. They take all the jobs (they own them) and don't give back. People can't make it on what's out there. @Roundandroundwego
DunningKruger · 61-69, M
I'd love to get an electric car, but they're still too expensive for me.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@DunningKruger way too expensive, cost is definitely holding progress back.
DunningKruger · 61-69, M
@Scarfface Also, I'm not keen on the whole lithium-ion battery packs they use now. I'd like to see one or more of the developing storage technologies hit the market, hopefully with better capacity and lower cost.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@DunningKruger I think the big tech are working on it... They definitely need to. Quick charge smaller battery packs that you could slot into a compartment in the car would be best, something light too 🤣
SW-User
Not a chance... between tons of batteries being used and needing disposal at some point... and cars catching fire for various reasons... I'll walk before buying an "EV"
Electric car owners have seen their rides catch fire after becoming waterlogged during Hurricane Ian and it can take hours to put the conflagrations out, a top Florida official warned Thursday.
As the Sunshine State recovers from the punishing Category 4 storm that made landfall last week, first responders have faced further destruction from electric vehicles that were submerged in water from the extensive flooding and later caught fire, Jimmy Patronis, Florida’s chief financial officer and state fire marshal, said on Twitter.
“There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian,” he tweeted. “As those batteries corrode, fires start.
“That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale.”
https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
Electric car owners have seen their rides catch fire after becoming waterlogged during Hurricane Ian and it can take hours to put the conflagrations out, a top Florida official warned Thursday.
As the Sunshine State recovers from the punishing Category 4 storm that made landfall last week, first responders have faced further destruction from electric vehicles that were submerged in water from the extensive flooding and later caught fire, Jimmy Patronis, Florida’s chief financial officer and state fire marshal, said on Twitter.
“There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian,” he tweeted. “As those batteries corrode, fires start.
“That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale.”
https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
SW-User
@ninalanyon Yet, in 2022 Florida had cars start on fire after becoming water logged from hurricane Ian.
I think an update on data may be due for your source.
I think an update on data may be due for your source.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@SW-User How many?
SW-User
@ninalanyon If you want to know, look it up. I'm not here to debate it. I don't want an electric car and that's that.
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
Not quite. First I don't have the money. Second my work is 40k away (although they do have chargers for electrical cars at my work)
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@JimboSaturn 40km is less than 20% of the range of my, in EV terms, old Model S. Even the much more reasonably priced 39 kWh Kia e-Niro has a range of 180 miles or 290 km. And a 2 kW charger (230 V, 9 A) adds close to 10 km per hour for my model S, more than 15 for the e-Niro. So it would easily replace the charge used for the entire round trip. And that charging rate is pretty much the lowest that is ever available.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
Spoiledbrat · F
I'm worried about not being able to travel so I'm probably going to buy another gas powered vehicle first.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@Spoiledbrat I think I'll buy one more old fosil guzzler too, hopefully the price comes down or things change.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
Had mine for over five years now. I put a lot of thought into it and it has worked out very well.
Highskirt · 56-60, M
I will be long gone by the time fossil fuel cars are phased out completely.
fanuc2013 · 51-55, F
No, too expensive, and too limiting! The technology has a ways to go yet!
DDonde · 31-35, M
I'm having a hard enough time buying regular cars. The price would have to come down significantly and there would have to be an investment in building charging stations in my area before I can consider it.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@ElwoodBlues is cheaper better?
ElwoodBlues · M
@DDonde
@Scarfface
Another benefit of electric vehicles is that electric engines need very little maintenance - no spark plugs, no gaskets, no timing belts, no cam shaft, no valve lifters, no piston rings, no oil pump, no fuel pump, etc. That leaves mostly - suspension, bearings, tires, brakes. Electric car brakes wear much less because of regenerative braking; tires wear slightly more because of the extra weight of the battery pack.
That’s nice, but it doesn’t mean I can afford to buy one
It does mean that long term electrics are MORE affordable than gasoline cars. So you're saying you can't afford a car at all?@Scarfface
is cheaper better?
Because operating costs track closely with energy usage, in this case more efficient means both cheaper and better. Better for the environment and better for your wallet.Another benefit of electric vehicles is that electric engines need very little maintenance - no spark plugs, no gaskets, no timing belts, no cam shaft, no valve lifters, no piston rings, no oil pump, no fuel pump, etc. That leaves mostly - suspension, bearings, tires, brakes. Electric car brakes wear much less because of regenerative braking; tires wear slightly more because of the extra weight of the battery pack.
DDonde · 31-35, M
@ElwoodBlues
So you're saying you can't afford a car at all?
Yeah I'm struggling to buy normal cars to begin with. Like I said.
Bri89 · 31-35, M
No, since I don't drive.
Dirtyboyy67 · 56-60, M
I’m running gas for as long as I’m around. Gas = Freedom
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@Dirtyboyy67 I wouldn't call it freedom unless you can grow your own fuel
Dirtyboyy67 · 56-60, M
True not complete freedom @Scarfface
smileylovesgaming · 31-35, F
No they cost to much
Funlov · M
Junk
Justenjoyit · 61-69, M
I doubt I will buy one untill the batteries are a lot more advanced, by then I will be to old lol
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Justenjoyit I don't know. By the time they solve the battery issue, cars will probably be self-driving, so there's that.
Scarfface · 46-50, M
@Justenjoyit I'm hoping I won't have to worry about it too 🤣
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