With the proposed phasing out of fossil fuel powered transport, how much thought have you put into what you will be driving in the run up to the phasing out?
I figure when they start showing the lithium mines, and the labor and labor conditions used to produce these batteries, this idea will die rather quickly. Oh, and when people figure out how much it will all cost, lol.
@SlaveEt More lithium is produced from purification of lithium salts dissolved in brine pumped to the surface and evaporated than is produced my mining lithium ore. This can be made quite clean if the regulations and enforcement are strict enough.
I would love to embrace the idea of driving a fully electric car and I fully support clean energy in other ways but at present the infrastructure for charging isn't suitably in place in the UK. Currently it means a lot of work planning a journey to fit in charging, often going miles out of the way. Also because the cars are all automatic, it creates extra wear on tyres because you brake more. The government will soon introduce road fund tax to electric car users so it's also not as attractive to go electric as it used to be.
@SW-User Some cars have adjustable regeneration rates. Some are designed specifically for one pedal driving like Teslas. If the hill is very steep then my Tesla S might need a little braking assistance but not often and not much.
@ArishMell @SW-User The Vegvesen in Norway (Roads Authority) has already published several variations on the theme of road pricing and annual fees to replace the equivalent of Road Fund income. It seems that neither country has anyone with imagination or common sense in government or the civil service, they just want to replace one regressive tax system with one that will be equally regressive or worse.
The logical solution, in my opinion, is to declare that access to the roads is a right and not a privilege to be paid for. Then the roads should be funded from general taxation. This avoids loading the costs on the poorest segment of the road using public as well as removing a substantial amount of bureaucracy.
@ninalanyon The UK roads already are funded from general taxes revenue.
The supposed Road Fund Tax just goes to the Treasury along with every other revenues - including the compound tax on fuels: [VAT on (Retail + Duty)] and the equivalent on all insurance premiums.
I think the difficulty is not how the money is collected and allocated so much as governments of all flavours seemingly unable to address simple, practical problems with simple, practical answers.
In essence we already have "road pricing" by the taxes on fuel, so the further you drive or the thirstier your car, the more you pay; but politicians and Treasuries seem unable to see that!
@SethGreene531 Ah, that's if they steal the whole car but I was thinking of opportunist charger-cable thefts, following the comment about practical-jokers "just" unplugging them in the street.
@Scarfface definitely. They are great to have. I use my grandmother's car bc she doesn't use it that much. Everyday things like shopping would suck ass if I had to use public transit or walk.
For me I like that electric cars are becoming wide spread. They have their issues which hopefully get ironed out like how stuff for them is sourced
@deadgerbil I'd much rather do my shopping at a local store but because everyone has cars that can drive to a supermarket I have to get one too. The local shop closed down because of the supermarket. It's a self destroying prophecy.
No.They're impractical for almost all of Australia currently.
And EV utes/4wd's are totally stupid and useless as they cannot get more than about 150 km of range towing a 3-ish tonne load before requiring a 3 to 4 hour recharge stop. note there are currently no EV utes/4wd's available here.
If the F150 lightning was here you'd see so many of them stopped on the side of the road with fully discharged battery modules after trying to tow their 3.5 tonne aluminium mobile toilet/shower/kitchen/bedroom or huge boat or big horse float and dying before reaching the next EV public recharge point that is actually working, and things like EV ute/4wd and trucks will require *massive* capacity recharging facilities totally off the scale of what exists now to 'fast charge' EV cars.
Stuff like that just does not exist anywhere in Australia yet.
This is why the Telsa Semi is still a joke product and the Cybertruck is even more of a joke product. Practical realities of Australia ruin their viability instantly.
You need to drive an EV car about half a million miles to reach 'enviromental parity' with the 'costs' of the inputs to make them even with zero tailpipe emissions, so EV's are not 'clean and green'.
@zonavar68 I accept the lack of charging facilities, their reliability doubts and huge distances; but you can't condemn battery-electric cars for not being capable of tasks for which they probably not intended - very heavy leisure towing over very long distances.
Such battery off-road / towing cars that do exist are more likely aimed at building-sites, quarries and farms with proper, industrial, high-rate chargers installed; not towing absurdly large caravans or boats across a continent with huge distances between towns.
The outcome you suggest would not be the fault of the vehicles, but of buyers not properly investigating their suitability for the chosen purposes!
I do agree though with your comment about them being not as "green" made out, though I doubt your figure of 500 000 miles. It does depend heavily too on the way in which the bulk of the nation's electricity is generated.
@ArishMell I don't know what it's like across the USA but here in Australia households that can afford rooftop solar and/or batteries are 10x more likely to consider electric vehicles as an option because they are already 'sucked into' the greenwashing debate via their pre-existing investments in so-called 'renewable' energy. Energy is only ever transformed - neither created nor destroyed. As humans we don't have the knowledge or understanding to 'control' the amount of energy present in the matter of the universe (humans are part of that matter). Rooftop solar + batteries + electric vehicles are quickly becoming a 'have' (ie. elite) vs 'have not' (ie. proletariat pleb) issue here, and I expect that'll be the case in most so-called 1st-world economies.
@zonavar68 Thank you. A thought provoking response.....
I do know the basic properties of energy but I wonder how may politicians etc, know it, or come to that, know the difference and relationship between energy and power. I suspect some imagine they are the same thing!
I'm in the UK not USA, but although we don't have the vast distances common to Australia and America, range and charger availability are still serious problems. Elsewhere, Hippie Joe has outlined the problems of owning a battery-electric car in his Canada; but they might also apply in some parts of the British Isles such as the Highlands of Scotland.
However, the matter here in Britain is not as heavily politicised along Party lines as in the States. All parties agree on the basics and aims, and simply argue on how to get there - and how to pay for it.
Nor is there a sort of class-warfare aspect to having solar panels and the like. Those simply come down to affordability plus technical feasibility.
What we do have though, in Britain, is vast numbers of homes where if you can afford solar panels on the roof and it is worth fitting them anyway, there is nowhere to park a battery-powered car to recharge it! It's thought anything from a third to half of British motorists are in that situation.
I am one, living in an early-20C terraced house with a very narrow front garden, in a narrow street built long before car ownership became something more than a status-symbol for the wealthy few. Others live in blocks of flats with limited parking, flats above town centre shops with no nearby parking, modern housing-estates that ape the 19C style of terraced homes with no front gardens, or in homes built on hill-slopes giving nowhere to park against the house anyway.
However, I don't see owning a battery car becoming a status symbol of the haves over the have-nots, here, but I do see many people in future simply being unable to afford a car.
I was discussing these things with some friends today.
I am afraid I cannot cite his source or verify this but one quoted a recent experiment to compare the economy of two return trips from Tiverton (Devon) to Bristol; one by Diesel the other by electric, cars of approximate equivalence.
From my Road Atlas, Tiverton to Almonsbury Interchange just beyond Bristol give roughly 150 miles round-trip, mainly cruising on a motorway with few hills. The cost difference was enormous. He claimed to have spent about £45 for the Diesel fuel (somewhere around 25 litres), but £80 for the electricity (whose costs apparently vary by supplier, time of day, place...).
Also of course a full tank of Diesel should complete that trip comfortably; whereas the battery car needed some "topping up" charge at the start and at the driver's Bristol destination, that taking appreciably longer than any liquid fuelling!
Now, I know perfectly well that my quoting verbatim a quote of one informal experiment I cannot cite, is very poor and I do not normally stoop to that sort of "soshul-meejuh" level, which is by no means science or statistics. Nevertheless it does suggest a point needing investigating properly.
Also his claim of £45 seems on the high side as that would give around 32mpg - I don't know what he was driving but any decent, modern, ordinary Diesel car should use much less than £45 worth for 150 miles. They are nearer 45-55mpg, some better. 32mpg would be on the low side even for the petrol equivalent! So it's possibly what the driver bought, not used, which would be far harder to determine, short of fitting a consumption-meter. (UK gallon, not US Gallon; but fuels are sold by the litre while cars are rated by miles per gallon.) .
Or if you like:
If I was just about rich enough to buy an electric car:
Am I still rich enough to pay for its electricity and its very rapid depreciation (set by battery life and cost); and I can cope with potentially significant but very unpredictable journey time increases?
Especially once electricity sold as vehicle "fuel" becomes subject to tax if it is not already, always at % rates, as inevitably it will have to be.
@Scarfface Indeed - such a one-off test really only raises the question, not answers it properly. I would imagine his driving style is the same in both cars, so being heavy-footed would not make much difference.
The same friend who told of this has previously remarked on the economy of his car, a medium-sized saloon. Diesel, it returns around 50mpg or better, and he admits he does drive it quite hard. I obtain only about 40mpg I think, from my petrol car of roughly similar size.
Even his large work van returns more than 30mpg with its Diesel engine and 6-speed manual transmission; certainly more economical than the previous one.
When I started driving, in the early 1970s, we thought it good if the average family saloon or estate car offered even 30mpg! By comparison, another friend's petrol-fuelled Series Two LandRover with free-wheel hubs gave about 25mpg in 2-wheel drive.
Engine designs have advanced considerably over the last few decades and the modern Diesel (always better than petrol) engine is far more efficient and cleaner than its predecessors were, or than the anti-Diesel campaigners want us to think.
(I suspect many of the campaigners have no clue what "Ad-blue" is for, and I am not even sure how many know the relationships between fuel, energy and power!)
...
What of course our descendants will have to face is that even if we choose to abandon coal, natural-gas and petroleum, those will run out. Either way will have to replace what those give apart from fuels, and to find sustainable replacements whose manufacture and use do not bring serious environmental problems of their own.
All the focus is on limiting emitting carbon-dioxide (not "carbon"!) and generating electricity (not "energy" although electricity is a form of energy). Nothing about materials.
@SW-User i see a typo . no i don thtink they are safer. thats the point. plus a friend who has one says theyre really powerful cars. i cant drive over a 6 cylinder or else ill up in a ditch with my lead foot
@Penny Electric cars are a total political game. the fuel to run the electric is 99% from fusel-based fuel. The cost of the batteries and both recycling and obtaining new ones (yes, they do run out) is astronomical and the Chinese are the source of the batteries.
No... brand new cars are still ridiculously expensive. I'll stick with petrol and diesel until the government gets with the times and forces landlords to provide home charging points by law.
Given that many people don't have drives or parking spaces in my area, I don't yet see how the infrastructure required for home charging can be fitted or who's going to be paying for installation and usage of said points - particularly those fitted on the roadside???
Like with petrol and diesel, I don't mind paying for what I use myself but I'm not buying the entire tanker load for whoever else to top up their tank at my expense...
@Scarfface Electrifying and improving that only works if you have enough men and women to drive them, though... we have a chronic shortage of bus drivers and only one company with a monopoly in this area.
Even the perk of free bus travel for them and their family isn't enough to coax more people to go for their PSV and work for this company.
@HootyTheNightOwl There are shortages of train drivers too, in parts of the UK.
Why, I don't know. It's not as if the pay is low although there is a lot of unsociable hours work, and it carries very high responsibilities.
A lot of nerve too: as one driver I know told me, you still have to know where you are and keep to time even when driving a passenger-train at 100mph on very dark, foggy nights when you can barely see the rails only yards in front of you. They do have signal-indicators etc. in the cab, but as aids and safety-devices, not replacements for route knowledge.
One difficulty is that you can't just recruit a driver from one design of train on one route, for example London (Paddington) - Bristol, and expect him or her simply to take over another design on the London (Waterloo) - Weymouth, or London (Kings Cross) - Edinburgh, routes.
I dont trust electric cars. They're getting too smart. One day they're gonna snitch on me & drive me straight to jail against my will & I'm not down wit it
They have been talking about this since at least the early 90's but electric cars have their own sets of problems.
Like when the batteries finally die, replacing them costs about the same as a brand new car. That is the nature of electronics throughout history - cheaper to replace than fix.
Plus those things are not any better for the environment than gas cars. Maybe less pollution during operation but production and mining the materials for the batteries - yeah look that up.
@CestManan I think that if most of the electric grid was ran on renewables then they could be more environmentally friendly. Having solar power at home could help too, I think it's all too far in the future though, a long way to go.
The world has 8,000 gigawatts of installed electricity generation capacity, according to the International Energy Agency. In theory, if the capacity ran 24-7 it could generate 69 million gigawatt hours of electricity annually.
The world consumed about 27 million gigawatt hours of electricity in 2019. That electricity warmed homes and ran businesses. What’s more, the world consumed the equivalent of roughly 28 million gigawatt hours of electrical energy to power its cars and trucks. That energy, of course, was stored in liquid fuel. Power plants didn’t have to generate it. Gasoline and diesel make most of the world’s vehicles go.
So 27 plus 28 is 56. The world needs 56 million gigawatt hours to keep the lights on as well as drive cars and trucks. There is 69 million gigawatt hours of capacity.No problem. But the generating capacity of wind and solar, of course, can’t be “on” 100% of the time. And even coal, nuclear, and hydro power plants have to take maintenance downtime. Still, there looks to be some spare generating capacity and the world’s 2 billion or so vehicles won’t convert to battery power all at once.
BTW, lithium batteries are great because they recycle so well.
Study: Recycled Lithium Batteries as Good as Newly Mined > Cathodes made with novel direct-recycling beat commercial materials 15 Oct 2021
And, lithium salts dissolved in hot geothermal wells has minimal environmental impact.
The new 'gold rush' for green lithium Geothermal brine could become a promising and sustainable source of an essential element for the renewable energy transition 24th November 2020
@soar2newhighs FedEx was 2004 2013 for the Boeing 787 battery fires. Sorry about the confusion since I posted 777 when it was two 787s that had battery fires.
@redredred The UK are doing ok at generating power from clean energy and that is going to keep getting better. In the future we might have more micro power generation too.
What happens when a big storm hits and half the state is out of power for days or weeks? What happens when a million people come home from work and all plug in their cars at the same time ?
@kodiac Right now we just do not have the infrastructure for them to be practical. Yeah they might be great for bopping around town but what if someone is making a trip longer than 300 miles?
Plus like I said - when the batteries ARE dead, they cost almost the same to replace as a whole new car.
Electric car where i live doesnt work. In winter they have issues with batteries exploding. Better yet you burn coal to produce the electricity so why is it an advantage?
@Doctrble from what I know burning fosil fuel to create electricity at a big efficient power station is a lot cleaner than millions of individual inefficient cars burning it's own fuel for power. I do think they have the advantage on cleaner transport. Exploding batteries is a different thing, they do self heating lithium batteries now.
@Doctrble I don't know why it is that everybody keeps saying we burn coal for electricity. Here in Oregon, we use mostly hydroelectric, in spite of Donald Trump trying to repopularize coal.
@Scarfface I run a big construction company actually I own it’s a way of life with me and it’s not gonna change no matter what the governments say things need to be built
@Funlov They should of built our world so only industry, transport of goods and public transport had motor vehicles. They wouldn't have all the problems they are trying to solve now.
@Scarfface here’s the thing it’s not the vehicles it’s the waste so if people stop wasting so much, we live in a throwaway society so if you want to do something for the environment, do it right where are you live read in your own community simple is that I’m in the oil and gas industry in Alberta Canada. It’s not gonna change no matter white people governments say solar power doesn’t work when power doesn’t work to talk to life.
No way , they are not ready to replace the engine yet . Plus the batteries are produced from slave labor . Adults and children The used batteries are not recycled s as bd must be dumped in landfills. So much for that . Someday yes we need more time to perfect the technology. First electric cars were around since the 1900s
@ninalanyon plenty you need to resort to the oldest form if heat because the green energy is a failure . Also if Europe did nit abandon oil & gAs you would have plenty of energy
@Driver2 But I do have plenty of energy. And wood is just one source of it. In what way is it a failure? My home is warm, my car is charged, my computers and mobile phones are all working, all powered by renewable energy.
Europe in general has successfully reduced its energy use so the reliance on fossil fuels is slightly reduced and anyway no one has abandoned gas, they just get from non-Russian sources.
And lastly, we haven't 'resorted' to wood burning. We have been using wood as a major space heating heat source here in Norway forever.
I've researched the brands, their different capacities and their prices. I have to wait until I sell this place. Until then I don't have the means. Even a loan is beyond me to pay back.
@hartfire I'm half sold with what I've researched. Will it pay back ? Will it last? These answers I can't find but you've said it'll work. Have you had experience?
@Scarfface Everyone I know who has one in my area has said it took around ten years to pay it off, but after that the savings are just incredible. They really do require far less maintenance - no engine to wear out - just the tyres roughly once every three years.
I got rid of my last car 2 years ago , I don’t need one, I don’t like driving but had to have a car for work now I have retired and gone back to a bicycle, I like them. Last year I decided to get an electric, pedal assist bicycle I’m happy with it.
@Nadie I heard the state of California is urging people to stop charging their electric cars, because the grid can't handle it. This is the problem when you only move forward in solving one part of the bigger problem.
@LordShadowfire Quite a few EVs will have V2G (vehicle to grid) in the future. This will help stabilize the grid because the EV will be able to decide to sell back to the grid if the price is high enough. Most grids have plenty of total capacity for EVs, the challenge is coping with peak usage when a large number of people charge all at the same time. This is easily dealt with by connecting the cars to the electricity market so that they know the real time price and can defer charging until it is cheaper. The British national Grid has published papers on the subject and concluded that upgrades to generating and transmission capacity that are already planned are sufficient to cope with the increased demand.
@Scarfface I am one of those "lots of people" that governments and campaigners seem unable to grasp exist! In the UK it's thought well over a third, possibly nearly half, of motorists are in that situation.
@Budwick they might be the main type of vehicle out there eventually but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. I don't know why Elon Musk is so excited about it, he has more money than a thousand people could spend in a lifetime already. What the hell does he need more for?
@SW-User I heard the Japanese were investing heavily in hydrogen watched reports on one of the news channels. Hydrogen cars can be refuelled quickly electric cars take too long to charge we'll have to wait and see I hope hydrogen wins a place in tomorrows motoring.
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏 #JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America. JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.” 👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻
👏👏 HYDROGEN IS THE FUTURE 👏👏 #JCB is set to showcase its hydrogen combustion technology, electric drivetrain and efficient diesel engines at CONEXPO-CON/AGG in Las Vegas. This will be the international debut of the hydrogen combustion engine in North America. JCB Chairman Lord Bamford is leading the project to develop JCB’s hydrogen technology. He said: “The JCB engineering team has made enormous strides in a short space of time to develop a hydrogen internal combustion engine and it already powers a JCB prototype backhoe loader and a Loadall telescopic handler. As the first construction equipment company to develop a fully working combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen, I’m delighted we are now able to present this technology on the international stage.”
I notice the engine is painted green as it should be of course.
Another thing to remember is that all existing transport systems and infrastructure are a product of human design and development - ie. the classic 'convenience trade-off' for a price.
@ArishMell And because anything commercialised has to make a profit, the majority of the automotive industry regardless of the philosophy exists to benefit the elite in control of the businesses and governments that leverage huge revenue and tax flows out of people who want to or need to use/own/operate transport systems of any sort.
@zonavar68 I don't go along with words like "elite" but I agree that motoring is very heavily taxed in many ways.
Yet if governments did not levy the taxes how could they pay for all the public services we all need - including roads to drive our costly cars on, or the railways, etc.?
@SunshineGirl That requires a massive radical change to the entire structure of societies, workplaces, transport infrastructure, etc. For example, I do shiftwork and it would be impossible to car-share or car-pool with the irregularity of my shift start/finish times.
Nope. I may be crazy but I am not stupid. EVs are a flash in the pan and despite their hype they will soon fade in popularity as it becomes more and more evident that they are not good for the environment or practical as reliable mode of transportation.
@SunshineGirl I don't live in a big city like Sydney, etc. and I am 30 km away from where I work renting as that's where I can afford, and I still cannot afford to buy a house. And I've never bought a new new car ever.
I'd also have to rely entirely on public charging-points and so far I am not convinced of their availability, compatibility and reliability now or within the next 5 years at least... as the queues at them lengthen.
Nor have I yet to see ones that allow direct payment with displayed costs and bank-card readers, instead of having to buy a "smart"'phone with its high fees and probably slapping unknown middle-men fees on top of the retail cost at the charger..
I hope petrol will still be available for the next 10-20 years, which ought see me, and others of my age, out.
I don't think so. Id like to build efficient public transportation, but the USA has this war on sustainability. They're interested in my debt and enslavement.
I think people take from each other and sometimes it's one sided. Big companies that get rich off people and pay them shit in return. They take all the jobs (they own them) and don't give back. People can't make it on what's out there. @Roundandroundwego
@Scarfface Also, I'm not keen on the whole lithium-ion battery packs they use now. I'd like to see one or more of the developing storage technologies hit the market, hopefully with better capacity and lower cost.
@DunningKruger I think the big tech are working on it... They definitely need to. Quick charge smaller battery packs that you could slot into a compartment in the car would be best, something light too 🤣
SW-User
Not a chance... between tons of batteries being used and needing disposal at some point... and cars catching fire for various reasons... I'll walk before buying an "EV"
Electric car owners have seen their rides catch fire after becoming waterlogged during Hurricane Ian and it can take hours to put the conflagrations out, a top Florida official warned Thursday.
As the Sunshine State recovers from the punishing Category 4 storm that made landfall last week, first responders have faced further destruction from electric vehicles that were submerged in water from the extensive flooding and later caught fire, Jimmy Patronis, Florida’s chief financial officer and state fire marshal, said on Twitter.
“There’s a ton of EVs disabled from Ian,” he tweeted. “As those batteries corrode, fires start.
“That’s a new challenge that our firefighters haven’t faced before. At least on this kind of scale.” https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electric-vehicles-catching-fire-in-florida-after-hurricane-ian/
@ninalanyon Yet, in 2022 Florida had cars start on fire after becoming water logged from hurricane Ian. I think an update on data may be due for your source.
@JimboSaturn 40km is less than 20% of the range of my, in EV terms, old Model S. Even the much more reasonably priced 39 kWh Kia e-Niro has a range of 180 miles or 290 km. And a 2 kW charger (230 V, 9 A) adds close to 10 km per hour for my model S, more than 15 for the e-Niro. So it would easily replace the charge used for the entire round trip. And that charging rate is pretty much the lowest that is ever available.
I'm having a hard enough time buying regular cars. The price would have to come down significantly and there would have to be an investment in building charging stations in my area before I can consider it.
Because operating costs track closely with energy usage, in this case more efficient means both cheaper and better. Better for the environment and better for your wallet.
Another benefit of electric vehicles is that electric engines need very little maintenance - no spark plugs, no gaskets, no timing belts, no cam shaft, no valve lifters, no piston rings, no oil pump, no fuel pump, etc. That leaves mostly - suspension, bearings, tires, brakes. Electric car brakes wear much less because of regenerative braking; tires wear slightly more because of the extra weight of the battery pack.
