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The God of nature and the God of supernature

By the God of nature, I refer to the God that man knows from his reason and intelligence.

By the God of supernature, I refer to the God that Christians know from the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims).

Here is my division of the three ways man comes to know God exists:
1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

From my part, I know God exists by the num 1 modus i.e. reasoning.

What about everyone else here, in particular I like to ask atheists whether they know about God (and deny He exists) by which way: num 1 or num 2 or num 3 ?

Top | Newest First | Oldest First

DocSavage · M

yrger/stoolsample

3. Therefore ultimately there is the God of nature Who created all things in nature including humans like you and me.

Sorry, doesn’t work like that either. You’re still claiming there is a supernatural intelligence that ultimately designed the universe by “natural “ means. That everything was created by “someone “ with an agenda and for a purpose. Someone who has a personal connection to us, and love.
You use the word “ultimate ” to add an extra step for your god, each time we punch holes in your story. No point discussing it with you, you’ll just add god to the end of everything . Typical Christian/creationist trick.

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Mathers · 61-69

You obviously have no understanding of Genesis one and a merely following a delusion created by a literalism formed by a materialistic understanding of things.. Go away and read the ‘Genesis enigma’ which is written by a non-believing scientist. Your statements prove you have no understanding of science and understanding of faith in God. They make you seem rather foolish@DocSavage

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
No, my statements prove my disregard for religion. I understand science just fine, it has nothing to do with god. I also understand god, I just don’t believe he exist. That’s what it is to be an Atheist. Faith is belief in face of overwhelming evidence. I prefer evidence.

Mathers · 61-69

You believe God exists on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever just on the grounds of your own prejudice and fantasy@DocSavage

LadyGrace · 70-79

Don't forget, the Bible and the Quran are completely different books. They're teachings are not in agreement with each other.

For example, we have chapter 5, verse 72 of the Quran, that states if you believe that Jesus is God, you will go to hell.

Chapter 5:16 of the Quran makes the claim that Jesus denied ever being divine. That's not true. The exact three things that Islam denies about Jesus Christ, are the exact three things God said we need to believe, in order to be saved. Death, deity, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

https://similarworlds.com/christianity/lord-savior-jesus-christ/4741018-Why-Jesus-Jesus-asked-How-else-will-they-know-so-great-a

LeopoldBloom · M

Since God exists only in the human imagination, atheists know about God from what other people tell them. Just like you know about Harry Potter from what J.K. Rowlings tells us in her books about him, because he doesn't exist outside of those books and in the minds of readers.

I hope you've mastered the reply button by now.

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DocSavage · M

@Mathers
It’s not that difficult to understand your god. As I explained to yrger/stoolsample when he insisted “something can not come from nothing “ that is why we invent gods. We give them the power to break our own rules. Atheist, understand the concept of infinity, and higher power. But that doesn’t make it true. Theist don’t like the idea, that what you see is what you get. They like the idea they’re part of something bigger. Doesn’t mean they are.

Mathers · 61-69

It is quite obvious you haven’t a clue about my God. As the Bible says , “the world through its wisdom knew not God.” Because your minuscule brain is incapable of taking in the idea of the infinite God does not mean to say that the infinite God does not exist. To say that he exists outside the tiny bit of knowledge that you know is not a fallacy. You really do sound very foolish in the way you talk@DocSavage

LeopoldBloom · M

@yrger I'm just not sharing all of my "stock knowledge" with an ignoramus like you. You keep posting the same thing over and over, so it's obvious that your religious knowledge could fit on a postage stamp with room to spare.

I've asked repeatedly for you to explain the mechanism whereby a disembodied intellect can affect material reality, and you haven't answered, because you've never even thought about that question before, let alone have the slightest idea how to address it other than "he just does."

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi DocSavage, you say: "From what I’ve read, you changed your definition again."

You are not capable of precision reading.

Tell me what is my previous definition and my present definition, otherwise I feel sorry for you because you are not capable of precision reading.

Go and acquire by practice the skill of precision reading.

DocSavage · MNudity

yrger/stoolsample

Back again are we ? same old shit, posting more of the same old shit. Still pining on your self exist spirit god. From what I’ve read, you changed your definition again. Now you’re trying to convince us that your god is a natural being, as opposed to a supernatural being. And again, you’re assuming that Atheists can’t understand the difference, due to our biblical upbringing. Another straw man, you’re still claiming that an intelligent, self aware being created the cosmos.. Only now by natural means, instead of simply willing it into existence such as all god in myth.
This god you “reason” is ultimately responsible for space you occupy and the time you waste.
However, this god still won’t work. You still have to break your first rule that something can not come from nothing. A natural god would still have to process both the ability to plan ahead and the ability to manipulate the elements of creation to implement that plan. How far can you plan ahead, when time itself doesn’t exist ?
Your fallacy is you keep insisting that some kind of being must exist, regardless of whatever version of god we Atheist deny or religion supports.

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yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

I am into the God of nature, not the God of supernature about which you are concerned, because you are a biblical atheist, for previously having been a fundamentalist Bible Christian.

I know the God of nature by investigating the natural material/physical universe which is ultimately composed of particles.

You know that, so I ask you: Did the particles create themselves?

Explain to me how and why the event occurred, which scientists call the cosmic microwave background radiation, that is phenomenon that ushered in the existence of nature.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
Your god created himself, so it’s possible. There’s no reason for your double standards. If god can do it, so can other things.
According to you, he didn’t even need supernatural powers to do it. So the process can’t be that unusual.
Besides, if there is a supernatural god, you wouldn’t know the difference, would you ? God, had no witnesses. Once again you have nothing.

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi everyone in particular atheists, I guess DocSavage has depleted his stock of knowledge, I was thinking that he and I would be into a dialogue together, now I am inviting anyone in particular an atheist to dialog with me on the substance of the post below.

yrger · 80-89, M
Addressing everyone, I am waiting for DocSavage to reply to my last post to him:

yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

You see I always want to exchange ideas and information and knowledge with another human, but everyone who did care to discuss with me, they literally run away because they had already depleted their 'knowledge'.

Are you a knowledge person, in which case I do care to exchange knowledge with you.

So, to the issue, "Is the default status of reality existence or not?"

You and I are correct, there is only existence that is reality, and there is never any default status of reality that is nothingness.

Now, the next question I propose we answer and agree on is this: Do we have an example of some entity or thing that is self-existent, because his or its default status is self-existence?

What do you say, DocSavage.

View 4 more replies »

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/chunkhead

Here is my latest definition of the God of nature:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

So, you changed it again. Now, he’s a Nature god. Shares the stage with the super nature god. He’s still a spirit, so is the other material ? Is that how you god built the universe? He imported the matter from the other god’s universe, contracted out the blueprints, and created everything at once, or did he spread it out over 13 billion years . He then let the super nature god, and his son Jesus set up a protection racket, for nonexistent souls for a nonexistent Heaven, frightening them with a nonexistent Hell ?
And your nature god just sits back, and gets a piece of the action ?
Is that how you see things ? Did your god arrange plagues, floods and natural disasters to get rid of the other old religions too ?
And you just figured this out by reason. Very convenient.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/chunkhead

You are I know for certain to have been a fundamentalist Bible Christian

Why ? Because I actually know something about the subject ? Basic bible mythology. Thank Cecil B Demille.

yrger · 80-89, M

@RedBaron

Hi RedBaron, I like very much to exchange ideas with you, what do you say?

yrger · 80-89, M
@RedBaron

yrger · 80-89, M
@RedBaron

You mean the ideas of the two kinds of God, namely:
The God of nature and the God of supernature.

Their respective ideas were drafted by their respective fans i.e. believers.

Now, with these respective ideas, their respective believers go forth into the world outside their mind, to seek for evidences to the respective existence for the one as for the other.

With the believers of the God of nature, the evidences they find are plenty, starting with babies and roses in their neighborhood.

Now, with the believers of the God of supernature, they have evidence in the Bible of plenty of miracles worked by their God, like for example, God stopped the sun and the moon from moving, so that His people could continue to win their war against the enemies.

Otherwise if the sun and the moon moved, and night time would come, in the darknes fighting would have to stop: so the chosen people of the God of supernature would not be able to continue killing and finishing off all the enemy soldiers.

The miracle worked by God of supernature consists of stopping the sun from setting down toward darkness, thus His chosen people could finish off all the enemy soldiers.

That is one evidence, and the God of supernature worked many other miracles, which are all evidences of His being the creator and operator and controller of the sun and the moon etc everything, that is not God Himself.

RedBaron · M

@yrger I gave you my idea. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine, so there’s no point in going on and on, back and forth.

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

Hi DocSavage, you say: "From what I’ve read, you changed your definition again."

You are not capable of precision reading.

Tell me what is my previous definition and my present definition, otherwise I feel sorry for you because you are not capable of precision reading.

Go and acquire by practice the skill of precision reading.

LeopoldBloom · M

@yrger Congratulations! You've found the "reply" button! Now you can focus on your argument, which so far is incoherent.

yrger · 80-89, M

Hi LeopoldBloom.

You say that God exists only in the human imagination, I agree with you because God is everywhere, and He exists also outside your imagination, namely, for example, inside your house and outside, because He is everywhere.

LeopoldBloom · M
Since God exists only in the human imagination, atheists know about God from what other people tell them. Just like you know about Harry Potter from what J.K. Rowlings tells us in her books about him, because he doesn't exist outside of those books and in the minds of readers.

I hope you've mastered the reply button by now.

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yrger · 80-89, M

@LeopoldBloom This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

LeopoldBloom · M

@yrger It's pathetic that a man like you in his ninth decade of life is still so childish and ignorant. I have had some amazing discussions with religious people, but there has to be a spirit of give and take. All you want to do is spout the line you've been indoctrinated with, while insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample

God is a spirit, the best kind of an explanation of what is a spirit, I will compare a spirit to air or space or time - and that does not make you God.

Which god are you talking about ? The nature or the super nature. You have two now, remember. Near as I can tell , the super nature god is the Christian god, and you consider him second banana.Is he self existing too ? Or was he created by your god ? Which brings us back to the earlier question. Does your super nature god follow biblical mythology?
You said before your nature god isn’t related to Christianity, or religion
He’s just the ultimate source of life. Some why bring in the other guy ?
Yahweh brought a lot of baggage with him. Sin, floods, destruction, Hell, what was your god thinking ?

yrger · 80-89, M

Addressing everyone, I am waiting for DocSavage to reply to my last post to him:

yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

You see I always want to exchange ideas and information and knowledge with another human, but everyone who did care to discuss with me, they literally run away because they had already depleted their 'knowledge'.

Are you a knowledge person, in which case I do care to exchange knowledge with you.

So, to the issue, "Is the default status of reality existence or not?"

You and I are correct, there is only existence that is reality, and there is never any default status of reality that is nothingness.

Now, the next question I propose we answer and agree on is this: Do we have an example of some entity or thing that is self-existent, because his or its default status is self-existence?

What do you say, DocSavage.

View 1 more replies »

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

So, you are back, but I can't get what you are telling me with a picture.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample

Better ?

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

You know better, so let you tell me what is your ultimate explanation of how and why you are existing, and don't say that you don't know, unless you are like the cattle and the donkeys and the frogs (no insult intended to these otherwise noble creations of God).

And hi DocSage, please don't lace your posts with tihs (read that from right to left), unless you have nothing in your brain except tihs.

============

DocSavage · M
@yrger/stoolsample
You are talking shit. Your ultimate god, has some influence on our reality or he doesn’t exist. You’re the one who says he’s self existing, you’re the one that says he’s permanent, you’re the one who says he’s the operator of everything that isn’t god. Non of those conform to the nature of this reality. He lives outside of time and space, he invented love. How exactly did he accomplish all this ? Where do you see all this happening by design?
If your god has no powers, he can’t influence anything. It’s like he was never there to begin with. That’s because he wasn’t.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/chunkhead

You know better, so let you tell me what is your ultimate explanation of how and why you are existing, and don't say that you don't know, unless you are like the cattle and the donkeys and the frogs (no insult intended to these otherwise noble creations of God)

What part of ultimate, self existing, permanent universe are you not clear on chunkhead ? The universe is here, it has always been here in one form or another, and will still be here when we’re gone. Life developed within it in part as a reaction of organic chemicals and natural processes. No god , nature or super nature involved. Clear as day, unless you are like rocks, or cattle or donkey shit lying on the ground, you would know this is true.

DocSavage · M

How I see it
Creation does not need a creator . It needs a catalyst. Something to set it in motion. What follows is the natural formation of the elements involved. No designer, permanent or otherwise needed. And no evidence of an agenda .
We got it, it’s ours while we’re here. Do what you can , while you can.

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yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

You are into the most ridiculous way of thinking, indicatve that you need not deserve a brain.

You say, "a molecule that made a copy of itself."

Tell me, is that molecule permanent self-existent? In which case that molecule is God.

If not God, then it needs God's causation to come into existence.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
Says who ?
Struck a nerve with “Defective Condom” didn’t I

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
Yeah, i did, just took me longer . Not as easy as it looks you know.

yrger · 80-89, M

Addressing everyone, in particular atheists.

yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage Yes, I will prove God exists, otherwise we have no ultimate explanation why we are existing whereas we were not existing previously - but you must read me carefully, and give me some cooperation.

1. I am a rationally and intelligently curious person, do you understant that - or you have no rational and intelligent curiosity, in which case you must have a very low IQ.

2. I always want to get to the ultimate explanation of things and why people do what they do, if you ae not like me, then you must have a very low IQ.

3. At this point you will be hollering this word tihs (read it from right to left) at me, and I say to myself, this savage must truly and really have very very very low IQ.

yrger · 80-89, M

Adressing everyone, in particular atheists:

yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage Yes, I will prove God exists, otherwise we have no ultimate explanation why we are existing whereas we were not existing previously - but you must read me carefully, and give me some cooperation.

1. I am a rationally and intelligently curious person, do you understant that - or you have no rational and intelligent curiosity, in which case you must have a very low IQ.

2. I always want to get to the ultimate explanation of things and why people do what they do, if you ae not like me, then you must have a very low IQ.

3. At this point you will be hollering this word tihs (read it from right to left) at me, and I say to myself, this savage must truly and really have very very very low IQ.

yrger · 80-89, M

Here is how I come to know the God of nature:

1. In nature the sun rises in the morning and goes down the horizon in the evening, the moon rises in the evening and goes down the horizon at dawn.
2. These natural phenomena occur in regular order.
3. Therefore ultimately there is the God of nature Who created all things in nature including humans like you and me.

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yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

I like you to explain how and why ultlimately everything in nature i.e. in the material/physical universe is running in an orderly fashion.

And don't claim that you don't know, unless you have no mind and intelligence, in which case you are not human - but you belong to the likes of cattle and donkeys and frogs.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
Given time, science might explain. Unlike you, I don’t presume to have irrefutable evidence one way or the other. You, yourself refuse to go into any detail as to your logic and reason reveals. When pressed, you slid back to an all loving, omnipotent spirt, outside time and space. Traditional.
My definition is still every bit as valid, and is supported by the facts. Your’s isn’t.

DocSavage · M

@yrger[c=009E4F/stoolsample[/c]

I don’t see why you keep repeating the same question. I gave you the answer a dozen times already. Ultimately the universe is self existing energy and matter.
You , yourself I keep saying this is possible. It is permanent, but changes its state , say from singularity to expanding . Space, time, gravity exist within, it follows the laws of physics and contains various life forms, with the exception which could be called god by our definitions.
It’s actually not much different from what you claim. What is missing is the same thing you’re missing , intelligence.
There is no need for a god, just a catalyst to get things moving. A little bang to set off the big one.

yrger · 80-89, M

@Everyone
@DocSavage

Please everyone in particular atheists, don't shout i.e. get negatively emotional, just keep to ideas and clear communication.

We are in a forum to learn from each other, not to quarrel with each other, and then become bitter hateful enemies over nonsense issue.

The existence of God is a most crucial issue for mankind, for it is the explanation of ultimately where do we humans come from.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
BOLLOCKS
You are here to preach bullshit.
God is a joke to you.

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

I am still waiting for you, DocSavage, to give your ultimate explanation for your existence in reality.

And I am also addressing this question to all atheists.

You atheists have no ultimate explanation for the existence of man, except shouting and shouting words like tihs.

Or you hold to the absolutely absurd statemet that everything existing came from nothingness.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample

Easy
The ultimate explanation of the universe is a self existing , permanent , complex combination of matter and energy which changes its state on occasion and is currently expanding. It is home to space and time, subject to gravity and the laws of physics, and contains several types of life forms within.
(With the exception of anything that can be called a god )

Anything else you want to know ?

DocSavage · M

yrger/stoolsample
So far, in the last three threads, you’ve run away twice, and one the third you cried like a little girl. You’re getting boring.

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DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample

There’s no way to tell. If non existence is default, you won’t know it.
Think rationally.

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

You see I always want to exchange ideas and information and knowledge with another human, but everyone who did care to discuss with me, they literally run away because they had already depleted their 'knowledge'.

Are you a knowledge person, in which case I do care to exchange knowledge with you.

So, to the issue, "Is the default status of reality existence or not?"

You and I are correct, there is only existence that is reality, and there is never any default status of reality that is nothingness.

Now, the next question I propose we answer and agree on is this: Do we have an example of some entity or thing that is self-existent, because his or its default status is self-existence?

What do you say, DocSavage.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample
BOLLOCKS !
People don’t run away from you. They turn away in discuss . When it comes down an intellectual exchange, you have nothing to offer that hasn’t been refuted four threads earlier. You got nothing. If a god did in fact create time and space, then you’re a waste of both. Ultimately, it is pointless to continue any thread with you. You just keep repeating the same old shit.

DocSavage · M

This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

yrger/stoolsample

Unfortunately, we Atheist are limited to reality. Facts and evidence. Narcissistic theist such as yourself, make up everything as they go, so they have access to an enormous supply of bullshit, without the worry of proof. You just call it faith, and lie continuously. Why else do you think religion has lasted so long.

DocSavage · M

For the record. You can stop asking who, what or where the universe came from.
I have no intention of arguing that a nonexistent god, does not in fact exist. He’s your god, you prove he’s there.

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage Yes, I will prove God exists, otherwise we have no ultimate explanation why we are existing whereas we were not existing previously - but you must read me carefully, and give me some cooperation.

1. I am a rationally and intelligently curious person, do you understant that - or you have no rational and intelligent curiosity, in which case you must have a very low IQ.

2. I always want to get to the ultimate explanation of things and why people do what they do, if you ae not like me, then you must have a very low IQ.

3. At this point you will be hollering this word tihs (read it from right to left) at me, and I say to myself, this savage must truly and really have very very very low IQ.

This comment is hidden. Show Comment

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

RedBaron · M

Both invented by people to explain how everything came to be.

View 4 more replies »

yrger · 80-89, M

@RedBaron

yrger · 80-89, M
@RedBaron

You mean the ideas of the two kinds of God, namely:
The God of nature and the God of supernature.

Their respective ideas were drafted by their respective fans i.e. believers.

Now, with these respective ideas, their respective believers go forth into the world outside their mind, to seek for evidences to the respective existence for the one as for the other.

With the believers of the God of nature, the evidences they find are plenty, starting with babies and roses in their neighborhood.

Now, with the believers of the God of supernature, they have evidence in the Bible of plenty of miracles worked by their God, like for example, God stopped the sun and the moon from moving, so that His people could continue to win their war against the enemies.

Otherwise if the sun and the moon moved, and night time would come, in the darknes fighting would have to stop: so the chosen people of the God of supernature would not be able to continue killing and finishing off all the enemy soldiers.

The miracle worked by God of supernature consists of stopping the sun from setting down toward darkness, thus His chosen people could finish off all the enemy soldiers.

That is one evidence, and the God of supernature worked many other miracles, which are all evidences of His being the creator and operator and controller of the sun and the moon etc everything, that is not God Himself.

yrger · 80-89, M

@RedBaron

This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

DocSavage · M

@yrger
There’s an advantage to being Atheist. We are always open to new and updated information. That’s why we always ask for evidence.
Theist, like you, glory in ignorance. You ignore everything, and call it faith.

DocSavage · M

yrger/chunkhead

This one has your name all over it. Even nature god and super nature god. Tell the truth, you’re the troll.
[media=https://youtu.be/ZYngbZ28LL4]

yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

DocSavage · M

@yrger/stoolsample

What’s the point of asking, if you’re going to answer yourself chuckles ?

Heavenlywarrior · 36-40, M

Elohim // Elowaah … ancient Nature spirits….

Ahayah - Allah - most high -source- I AM

CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M

In other words, you rationalized your desire to believe until you believed it.

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