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The God of nature and the God of supernature

By the God of nature, I refer to the God that man knows from his reason and intelligence.

By the God of supernature, I refer to the God that Christians know from the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims).

Here is my division of the three ways man comes to know God exists:
1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

From my part, I know God exists by the num 1 modus i.e. reasoning.

What about everyone else here, in particular I like to ask atheists whether they know about God (and deny He exists) by which way: num 1 or num 2 or num 3 ?

This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »

LeopoldBloom · M

Since God exists only in the human imagination, atheists know about God from what other people tell them. Just like you know about Harry Potter from what J.K. Rowlings tells us in her books about him, because he doesn't exist outside of those books and in the minds of readers.

I hope you've mastered the reply button by now.

DocSavage · M

@LeopoldBloom
That is his new argument . Whatever god you discuss, from any religion or text is not the real god that we all know exist.
Creation needs a creator. So no matter what , it’s real even if you can actually prove all gods are false.

Mathers · 61-69

As an atheist you believe you come from nowhere, you are going nowhere and there is no point to your existence. Your reasoning cavities are irrational because they are the result of a cosmic accident so you don’t know whether the neutrons in your brain are giving you right or wrong signals. You know nothing for sure. @LeopoldBloom

yrger · 80-89, M

@LeopoldBloom Hi LeopoldBloom.

You say that God exists only in the human imagination, I agree with you because God is everywhere, and He exists also outside your imagination, namely, for example, inside your house and outside, because He is everywhere.

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
The universe is a very big place, we can only observe a few light years in any direction with our strongest telescopes by comparison.
While it may be comforting to believe we have someone watching out for us, and we’re part of some great plan, how likely is that really ?
Truth is, there doesn’t have to be any reason for our being here. Just make he best of what you have. That’s life. Even if you don’t like it.

Mathers · 61-69

So what? The Bible tells us that time and space are nothing to God and that he is outside the space/ tine dimension anyway. The problem you have the wrong worldview@DocSavage

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
The people who wrote the bible, also thought the Earth was a flat disc, mounted on four pillars. That the sky was a big crystal dome , surrounded by water. With the sun and the moon inside, that the stars were just little specks of light draped around it all.
Using the bible as a source of reference, isn’t going to impress anyone . God is whatever you want him to be, and he can do whatever you can’t explain. A few thousand years ago, that was enough. Not anymore.

LeopoldBloom · M

@Mathers Straw man argument. I could say that as a believer, you've been brainwashed to believe in a supernatural being for which there is no evidence, to keep you in line and under the authority of whoever is in charge of your religion.

Atheists don't actually believe what you just wrote.

DocSavage · M

@Mathers

The problem you have the wrong worldview@DocSavage

Your problem is you’re missing yrger/stoolsample’s point.
Creation is done. Your Christian god’s value is now the afterlife. It’s what he can do for you after death, that makes your faith worthwhile. You’re using creation to validate god’s existence. You need him at the beginning so he’ll be there at your end.
yrger/stoolsample is arguing god’s existence as the origin of life. He’s not providing Heaven or Hell. And Jesus has no part in the scheme of things. That’s what “natural “ god means. Just life, no salvation.

Mathers · 61-69

You are missing the point buddy. You don’t know what you are talking about. Life is found in the creator now, now just in some after life. Of course creation valdidates God’s existence as Beethoven’s 9th validates Beethoven’s. A creation (as you call it not me) has a creator. Try using logic for a change@DocSavage

DocSavage · M

@Mathers Bollocks
The universe is far too big and chaotic to assume the existence of an omnipotent god. Logic dictates that humans put a face to an event they can not comprehend. And naturally, that face is human, and smiles on us.
Plus, you haven’t explained the need for Jesus. Creation, doesn’t automatically mean the rest of the story.

The Bible limits creation to the human race, and this planet. We already know there’s a lot more to the picture. And it doesn’t point to a god.

Mathers · 61-69

My faith doesn’t fight science. Science enhances it. You are just deceived and ill informed. You are just gullible and brainwashed by this nonsense. @DocSavage

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
Like yrger/stoolsample you’re simply adding god to the equation. Science does not support the existence of god. Nor does logic.
He keeps saying over and over, god first, everything after that.
Something can’t come from nothing. That’s the rule, and the first thing you do is invent someone to break it. Way too convenient to be practical or realistic.

LeopoldBloom · M

@Mathers So you accept the theory of evolution, since it's supported by scientific evidence?

Mathers · 61-69

Of course evolution happens. But whether it can bear the weight of all that’s supposed is questionable. I am somewhat sceptical of the claims. Whatever it certainly did not produce life@LeopoldBloom

LeopoldBloom · M

@Mathers Please explain the mechanism of how God, an immaterial being, created life, a material process. You should be able to do this if you're going to propose "God" as the source of life.

Also, if you bothered to learn how evolution works, you'd find that it does, in fact, "bear the weight" of everything it explains. Goddidit is not a valid explanation of anything.

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
All the more reason why intelligent design fails so badly. A spiritual being pops into existence from nothingness. Decides to create a physical, material universe out of nothing, instead of creating after itself like life does here. With no knowledge or experience to draw from. Then Bang you have time, space, physics, gravity, life, evolution.
All of which never existed and which now work in ways that you can’t predict. It’s just like god’s sole reason for existing was to put us here, and leave us alone. Like the part was written from him.

Mathers · 61-69

Your problem is you’re not a deep thinker and you cannot think beyond the materialistic. The typical post enlightenment materialist he thinks of this rather clever to stick in that narrow mindset@DocSavage

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LeopoldBloom · M

@Mathers So maybe you should admit that you have about as much ability to understand God as an amoeba does to understand a human. The Bible is such an insignificant explanation of the vastness of the divine as to be worthless. But you don't agree. You think that you do, in fact, understand God perfectly and have reduced him to the miserable little box you've stuffed him into.

Mathers · 61-69

Maybe you should admit you are projecting your own inadequacy of knowledge and your own ignorance on to someone else. As I have said, atheism is founded on ignorance, especially the sort of ignorance which thinks (like you) it knows something. Laughable really and quite pathetic is the little man accusing me of doing exactly what you are -reducing God to a miserable little box of human knowledge you try and stuff him into whereas the Bible reAlises ‘the heaven of heavens cannot contain him’. Keep trying and projecting! 😀@LeopoldBloom

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
In case you haven’t noticed it yrger/stoolsample that’s rewriting your god. We’re questioning him. Your biblical god is second class according to him. He made a new one.
We don’t believe in either, but we consider his even more ridiculous than the other.

yrger · 80-89, M

@LeopoldBloom This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

DocSavage · M

@Mathers
It’s not that difficult to understand your god. As I explained to yrger/stoolsample when he insisted “something can not come from nothing “ that is why we invent gods. We give them the power to break our own rules. Atheist, understand the concept of infinity, and higher power. But that doesn’t make it true. Theist don’t like the idea, that what you see is what you get. They like the idea they’re part of something bigger. Doesn’t mean they are.

Mathers · 61-69

It is quite obvious you haven’t a clue about my God. As the Bible says , “the world through its wisdom knew not God.” Because your minuscule brain is incapable of taking in the idea of the infinite God does not mean to say that the infinite God does not exist. To say that he exists outside the tiny bit of knowledge that you know is not a fallacy. You really do sound very foolish in the way you talk@DocSavage

LeopoldBloom · M

@yrger I'm just not sharing all of my "stock knowledge" with an ignoramus like you. You keep posting the same thing over and over, so it's obvious that your religious knowledge could fit on a postage stamp with room to spare.

I've asked repeatedly for you to explain the mechanism whereby a disembodied intellect can affect material reality, and you haven't answered, because you've never even thought about that question before, let alone have the slightest idea how to address it other than "he just does."