The God of nature and the God of supernature

You are of course one of those who make the mistake of thinking that knowing the mechanism means we can dispense with the agency. A common mistake made by atheists. @DocSavage

@Mathers
And you are one of those who can’t accept your place in the universe.
If your god exist, and has all these fantastic powers of creation, then what possible agenda could he have that could not be achieved at the onset ?
We can’t interact with the rest of the universe, we have no influence over it in any shape or form. So why do you believe that you are so vital to whatever grand plan god has ? Answer is, you’re not. We live on a tiny blue dot , in an indifferent universe, when we’re gone, no one will have known we were ever here.

P.S. I understand both the mechanisms and the agencies
That doesn’t mean I automatically have to believe both.

Okay I have read Sagan too. So what? The Covid virus is a tiny dot to use but what an effect it can have. My child was just a collection of very tiny cells but that did not make her any the less significant. The fact is we believe in resurrection because Jesus rose from the dead. @DocSavage

@Mathers
Says who ? An old book of fairytales. History has no evidence that Jesus himself actually existed , and there is factual evidence against the story, just as with Moses. I’ve read creation stories from many mythologies,
And cultures. What makes your’s more real than any of the thousands that came before or after ?
The problem with theist, is they like their fables too much. They don’t want the truth, when it diminishes the illusion of self importance. You’re looking for a reason for life, you have life on Earth, you don’t have to matter to anything else.

You are just showing your ignorance here. No one of any intelligence believes that Jesus never existed. You are just a fantasist and believe the tripe on silly websites. We are not looking for a reason for life - we have found life. For 5he atheist there is no reason, no morality or no purpose logically. It is a bankruptexistsnce of chance.
@DocSavage

@Mathers
Sorry, but there are many who don’t believe Jesus existed. Historians of the time don’t even mention him. Records of events of the time don’t match. As I repeatedly said, gods are custom made. We make up whatever is needed to get what we want.

There are uneducated people who don’t believe Jesus existed. Of course he did. Contemporary sources mention him. In fact we have more wrytten sources for him than anyone els3 in ancient history. Stop repeating the rubbish on those idiot websites @DocSavage

@Mathers
No, there are simply people who grew up in a different culture who have no reason to believe a Jewish Rabbi they never heard of is god. There are also people who have heard of Jesus, but have out grown the need for fairytales.
Faith is belief in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. Some of us consider actual fact and truth, more important.

I have been trained as a scientist bud and ancient history. I know the difference between history and fairytales which you don’t. You are just going by some rhetoric you have found on the internet which you’ve swallowed. I’m going by years of study. My faith is belief in the evidence - because of the evidence. @DocSavage

@DocSavage By the God of nature, I refer to the God that man knows from his reason and intelligence.

By the God of supernature, I refer to the God that Christians know from the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims).


Here is my division of the three ways man comes to know God exists:
1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation


From my part, I know God exists by the num 1 modus i.e. reasoning.


What about everyone else here, in particular I like to ask atheists whether they know about God (and deny He exists) by which way: num 1 or num 2 or num 3 ?

@Mathers
So tell me, is the Bible scientifically accurate ?
Is this the true origin of life , a golem and a transgender clone ?
Is this how Earth really looks from space ?
Did god really make us in his image ? Would a god that can will anything into existence, need hand or feet when there nothing to hold, and nowhere to go until he creates it ?
Your god is far too human to be limited so. The universe is simply too big to support the belief.

@yrger /stoolsample

Try telling us something we haven’t heard over and over. You’re still referring to a self aware intelligence. Any religious reference is irrelevant.
Reason and intelligence do not point such a being.
We all understand what you’re saying, and you are still breaking your first rule. Something cannot come from nothing. Your “something” however came into existence, not only from nothing. But with an agenda. A plan.
Power and ability. The fact is, if such a being can exist, then so can a self existing universe. One that needs no operator. That is the point.

@DocSavage

You have no ultimate explanation of your existence as a human with a mind and reason and intelligence.

Don't say you don't know, unless you belong to the likes of cattle, donkeys, and frogs.

@DocSavage

You claim a self-existing universe, but that only demonstrates your ignorance of science.

Scientists tell us that the material/physical universe has a beginning, wherefore ultimately it needs a creator.

Now I ask you, do you know that ultimately the material/physical universe is composed of particles?

Where and how and why are there particles existing, did they come from nothingness?

You are into absurd thinking, or you belong to the likes of cattle and donkeys and frogs.

There exists God the permanent self-existent spirit master-mind creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

That's obvious to any human with a mind and reason and intelligence.

I fear you DocSavage have no mind and no reason and no intelligence to see what is obvious, because you belong to the likes of cattle and donkeys and frogs.

What is obvious needs no argument.

You are basically saying if there is something your 3lb brain cannot understand it cannot exist. Some of us are a bit more humble than that when dealing with the infinite and omniscient@DocSavage

@Mathers
No, you’re saying that. You made up a living, thinking creator for the simplest of reason of all. You can’t think of any other reason than what you were raised to believe in. You believe you’re part of god’s great plan.
I can accept the fact that we’re re here, and there is no agenda. The universe is infinite and fantastic, and we live in it. What more do you expect ?.

No I am not saying that. You are saying that. I was not raised to believe that at all. You are just a person who lives off his prejudices. I am a person who thinks more deeply. @DocSavage

@DocSavage This is getting to be funny, you have depleted your stock knowledge, including all you fellow atheists.

most believe Jesus was compiled from other people , there are stories with him in two places at the same time. None of the men who wrote the gospel were actually there to witness anything. It was at least a century before he was even given the name.
The only thing close to evidence , is a stone they found with Piolet’s name on it.

You are sharing your ignorance again of course in that most people do not believe that. What atheist site did you get that piece of trash from? You’re just rehashing some discredited trash which has now been found to be absolute nonsense. Archaeology has now found that the gospel writers understood the culture and they were obviously writing in the period they describe. Sorry but to someone who knows what they’re talking about the statements are obviously just cribs from somewhere and are totally out of date and discredited now by most scholars@DocSavage

@Mathers
I suppose you think Jesus was white too. Blonde , blue eyes.

I think you are completely ignorant asking questions like that. Some of us are well acquainted with second Temple Judaism. Some of you atheists are totally ignorant and proud of it.

@DocSavage

@Mathers
I don’t believe in magic, simple as that. Jesus was based on a real person maybe. But I don’t buy the hocus pocus . Same thing with Moses, the numbers and history just don’t work.
You do also realize that all the accounts of Jesus’s life were written, at least 20 years after his death, the major gospels long after that. We don’t know by who, we figure they were passed down orally, for years before they were written down by anyone. And it’s likely they got a bit exaggerated by then. Then of course, the Bible itself has gone through several rewrites m and mistranslations, so it is not unreasonable to have a reasonable doubt about the man himself.

You do believe in magic because as an atheist you believe that nothing came from something.
You also obviously know nothing about agent history because you realise that the accounts of Jesus’s life are the best accounts of ancient history we have on record. Unless you want to junk all ancient history you need to accept them. You are absolutely rotten in saying that the new Testament is gone through several rewrites and mistranslations. Your ignorance is appalling as you are just going by people who are ignorant themselves. Why don’t you read peopke who know something?. You are the gullible one who is falling for the propaganda which is out there on the Internet.

Actually critical scholars tell us that the documents we have on the new Testament are about 99% pure due to the enormous number of ancient documents, but people like you just prefer to follow the ignorant myths@DocSavage