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Why the biblical atheist deny God exists.

Hi atheists, tell me why you deny God exists, of course you have to first define what is God.

I am Yrger the theist, and here is my definition of God:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."
Tell us how you know Ahora Mazda doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Amaterasu doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Fujin doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Eight Immortals don't exist.
Tell us how you know Athena doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Aries doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Apollo doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Estsanatlehi doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Tsohanoai doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Odin doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Thor doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Ra doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Osiris doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Gitche Manitou doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know Zeus doesn't exist.
Tell us how you know the other 5000+ gods and goddesses and spirits humans have worshiped don't exist.
Now tell us why the same reasoning doesn't apply to your favorite deity.
Carazaa · F
@ElwoodBlues OK great! You realize that maybe an intelligent designer made the world. Bright!
@Carazaa Yes, I've never excluded that possibility.
Carazaa · F
@ElwoodBlues I think you are quite intelligent and have good logic!
badminton · 61-69, MVIP
Human kind has invented many religions - Jewish, Christian, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist. There are the religions of Africa and those of the peoples of the Americas. And there is Wiccan, Celtic druid, and others. Can you really tell all these believers they are wrong and only YOUR religion is right?

FYI - Christians have fought and persecuted other religions and each other for centuries. During the middle-ages the Church was guilty of horrendous atrocities (burning people at the stake, torture, etc.) This persecution included Christians who just had slightly different views on Christian doctrine.

“Any kind of extreme in any religion is dangerous. It's just a way to control and violate the basic human rights of others. They diminish God in our world.”
― Eileen Anglin

“If a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission.”
― Flemming Rose
DocSavage · M
yrger/Loser
Hi Doc, you are still bound to the biblical atheists' God of the Bible, so you are not connected with me, I am into the God as man with reason and intelligence knows Him to exist

You seem to be obsessed with the idea, that rest of us are biblical Atheists. That our concept of god comes from that old book of fables.
Would you mind, clearing up, exactly what powers of creation your god used to do the job ?
The biblical god essentially willed everything into existence. Creating everything all at once more or less. Matter, gravity, the laws of physics, time and life . Apparently to accomplish some agenda. Which means preconceived plans for event in a future before time even existed. All of which means god is all powerful and all knowing and all controlling. In short, he is everything.
Now, if your god created the universe , including life. And is control of it all. How did he do it without the same powers and abilities ?
So far, you have refused to explain what your god’s motives are for creation and life ? You simply say he did it. You also say he invented love,
You refuse to go into morality as or any of the standard reasons religion has to offer. So what does that leave us ?
1) a single , spirit , self existing for no rational purpose
2) Has no knowledge of time or space. No awareness of anything outside its own ego.
3) somehow , decides to manufacture a universe, with powers of unknown nature, and origin. Which is literally the exact opposite of itself.
4) Makes the universe of infinite size, creating galaxies, stars, and planets. In which at least one has the capacity for human life. The others serve no practical use , and humans can’t interact with them.
5) it takes billions of years before life to become possible, and millions more for it to evolve to human form. Still no agenda known.
6) god still controls everything, and everyone. But, has no direct contact with creation. Or foreseeable future use for us before or after death.
7) No pattern, No motivation, No reason, No logic, No purpose, and No evidence of any of it.
It’s like, something came from nothing for no other reason to support your personal ignorance. You created god yourself. Just as I said.
No other possible answer.

So, how does this work for you ?
P.S. the Biblical god doesn’t fair any better.
DocSavage · M
@yrger/Loser

Can’t do it can you ? You just keep making false claims to avoid answering questions that totally destroy you definition of god.
All creator gods , biblical or otherwise have supernatural powers. There’s no other way to get the job done. It’s the main reason I don’t believe in any of them. As I said before, when you asked for my description of god.
God is a why, not a what. You and every believer custom design them for the same reason.
You believe in the same god, because you’re hoping to get something from him. You’re trying to hide it. But you need keep him appeased, don’t you.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Hi Doc, you say I am hoping to get something from the God I know from reason, not hoping but already enjoying His goodness to mankind, for example He gives rain and air and sunshine to all mankind.

Now, if you don't want His gifts, the most logical act is to commit suicide.


------------------

DocSavage · M
@yrger/Loser

Can’t do it can you ? You just keep making false claims to avoid answering questions that totally destroy you definition of god.
All creator gods , biblical or otherwise have supernatural powers. There’s no other way to get the job done. It’s the main reason I don’t believe in any of them. As I said before, when you asked for my description of god.
God is a why, not a what. You and every believer custom design them for the same reason.
You believe in the same god, because you’re hoping to get something from him. You’re trying to hide it. But you need keep him appeased, don’t you.
BibleData · M
@yrger
Now, if you don't want His gifts, the most logical act is to commit suicide.

Wow. That's about the dumbest antibiblical excursion I've ever witnessed. And that's saying something since I've been debating atheists for 30 years.

The Bible says that the gifts you are referring to are given to believer and unbeliever alike, and even that the unrighteous will more likely prosper than the righteous in this unrighteous world.

I suspect you're an ideologue with very little substance.
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
I think the current estimate of different religions that have every existed is around 2000. So the difference between a believer and me is only one in 2000. A believer thinks that 1999 religions are wrong. I think 2000 are wrong. We are so close to agreement.
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
@yrger If you think the lesser animals aren't curious, get a housecat.
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
Also, the argument that you are making is that you, yourself, do not have enough information or intelligence to understand some questions you have, therefore there must be a god. That logic is so flawed that I hardly even know where to begin. I think that I'd have to start by explaining the scientific method and go from there. Frankly, you seem content in your ignorance. Blissful even. Enjoy it.
DocSavage · M
@yrger humans need an environment to survive. God doesn’t. He has no physical needs or limitations. Why create something so completely outside and radically different from himself ?
If it was a preconceived idea, then something must have programmed him with the the power and knowledge. He couldn’t have learned it from his parents, or in school. He has no outside influence, because there is no outside until he creates it. So where did the ability and idea arise from ?
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, are you hesitant to engage in a supposition, why the fear?

Here is the supposition: You and I we are rational and intelligent, we are curious* about everything, and we never know anything about a bible among Christians.

Being curious and intelligent, not like other living things, for examples: the cattle, the donkey, and yes the frog, we ask ourselves Did something or someone put us here on earth?

So, being rational and thus intelligent and being curious about everything, which everything includes who or what brought us into existence?

From my part, I say something or someone did put us into existence.

What about you, will you maintain that nothing and no one put us into existence, we just popped into existence from nothingness?!




*Recall that curiosity is the mother of invention - that includes discovery.





================

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, I see you all to be biblical atheists, because you all were previously fundamentalist bible Christians; but you all got tired of the biblical God - I can only imagine why.


Suppose you were never exposed to the bible, would you ever become atheists?


There are three ways man knows God exists:

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the bible (or the koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

Prescind from the bible, try reasoning on where you and everything come from on ultimate terms, and you will also come to the existence of God, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
What about you, will you maintain that nothing and no one put us into existence, we just popped into existence from nothingness?!

Sure, god can do it, so can we. Give us a couple million years of evolution, and we’ll be creating new realities and whole universes.
You don’t think god did it all at once do you ?
DocSavage · M
@yrger
*Recall that curiosity is the mother of invention - that includes discovery.
Necessity Is the mother of invention. Chowder head. Curiosity is a distance aunt , a cousin maybe.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
No, we went with abiogenesis, and good old evolution.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you were definitely in past history a fundamentalist Bible Christian.

Your long list of what the Bible God did, gives the lie away.




DocSavage · M
yrger/Loser
Hi Doc, you are still bound to the biblical atheists' God of the Bible, so you are not connected with me, I am into the God as man with reason and intelligence knows Him to exist -Yrger

You seem to be obsessed with the idea, that rest of us are biblical Atheists. That our concept of god comes from that old book of fables.
Would you mind, clearing up, exactly what powers of creation your god used to do the job ?
The biblical god essentially willed everything into existence. Creating everything all at once more or less. Matter, gravity, the laws of physics, time and life . Apparently to accomplish some agenda. Which means preconceived plans for event in a future before time even existed. All of which means god is all powerful and all knowing and all controlling. In short, he is everything.
Now, if your god created the universe , including life. And is control of it all. How did he do it without the same powers and abilities ?
So far, you have refused to explain what your god’s motives are for creation and life ? You simply say he did it. You also say he invented love,
You refuse to go into morality as or any of the standard reasons religion has to offer. So what does that leave us ?
1) a single , spirit , self existing for no rational purpose
2) Has no knowledge of time or space. No awareness of anything outside its own ego.
3) somehow , decides to manufacture a universe, with powers of unknown nature, and origin. Which is literally the exact opposite of itself.
4) Makes the universe of infinite size, creating galaxies, stars, and planets. In which at least one has the capacity for human life. The others serve no practical use , and humans can’t interact with them.
5) it takes billions of years before life to become possible, and millions more for it to evolve to human form. Still no agenda known.
6) god still controls everything, and everyone. But, has no direct contact with creation. Or foreseeable future use for us before or after death.
7) No pattern, No motivation, No reason, No logic, No purpose, and No evidence of any of it.
It’s like, something came from nothing for no other reason to support your personal ignorance. You created god yourself. Just as I said.
No other possible answer.

So, how does this work for you ?
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=359E00]/Loser[/c
Hi Doc, you are still bound to the biblical atheists' God of the Bible, so you are not connected with me, I am into the God as man with reason and intelligence knows Him to exist -Yrger
So, show us some of that reason and intelligence. Or aren’t you man enough ?
I gave you the numbers, now it’s your turn. I’m betting you come up with “0”
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists here like Doc.

This is a test to detect whether you can reason or not.
Answer this question from me: Will existence cease to exist altogether? Yes or no.
DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser
Yeah, everything will completely go back to the nothingness it came from.
Prove me wrong
yrger · 80-89, M
How Did the Universe Begin?

When you look up at the night sky, what do you see?
If it's a clear night, you might see hundreds of thousands of tiny points of light, too numerous to count. Some are planets, some are stars, and some are even galaxies! Where did all these cosmic objects come from?

In the 1920s in California, astronomer Edwin Hubble observed distant galaxies using an extremely powerful telescope . He made two mind-boggling discoveries.

First, Hubble figured out that the Milky Way isn’t the only galaxy. He realized that faint, cloud-like objects in the night sky are actually other galaxies far, far away. The Milky Way is just one of billions of galaxies.

Second, Hubble discovered that the galaxies are constantly moving away from each other. In other words, the universe is expanding. The biggest thing that we know about is getting bigger all the time.

A few years later, Belgian astronomer Georges Lemaître used Hubble‘s amazing discoveries to suggest an answer to a big astronomy question: How did the universe begin?

If the universe is always getting bigger, then long ago it was smaller. And long, LONG ago, it was much smaller. That means billions of years ago, everything in the universe was contained in a tiny ball that exploded! Wow!

This breakthrough idea later became known as the Big Bang!
The Big Bang was the moment 13.8 billion years ago when the universe began as a tiny, dense, fireball that exploded. Most astronomers use the Big Bang theory to explain how the universe began. But what caused this explosion in the first place is still a mystery.

So, what has happened since the Big Bang?

Since the Big Bang, the universe has been expanding. In the early years, everything was made of gas. This gas, mostly hydrogen and helium, expanded and cooled. Over billions of years, gravity caused gas and dust to form galaxies, stars , planets, and more.

The matter that spread out from the Big Bang developed into everything in the universe, including you. You are made of star stuff!

Astronomers have figured out that the universe is about 13 billion years old. (We’d better skip the candles on the birthday cake!) They have also determined, approximately, when different cosmic events happened, such as when our galaxy and our planet formed.


https://www.amnh.org/explore/ology/astronomy/how-did-the-universe-begin
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger when someone asks "What caused the big bang." And the answer is "We don't know." That does not open the door to make something up.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone, in particular atheists here:

This is a test to detect whether you can reason or not.
Answer this question from me: Will existence cease to exist altogether? Yes or no.


The rational intelligent answer is NO, existence will never cease to exist, because there is the default situation that God exists as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

If existence can cease altogether, then it has already ceased and we should not be here discussing God exists or not, because there would be no God either.

So the only entity existing in all situations of existence is God, the permanent self-existent spirit creator ad operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Wherefore: on ultimate terms, God and existence or reality are identical, and anything that is not God is created by God, like man and the universe and everything transient.
yrger · 80-89, M
@ChipmunkErnie

Hi Chip, you are wrong because ". . . the ABSENCE of a god . . . " is nothingness, and nothingness is nothingness.

Your error consists in imagining that nothingness is somethingness - in a situation where you suppose there is nothingness prevailing, then you already pop out of all existence, it is you are like Lawrence Krauss who takes nothingess to be somethingness, which is absolutely absurd.


----------------------

ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@yrger
The rational intelligent answer is YES, existence will cease to exist, because there is the default situation that God DOES NOT exist as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

If existence can cease altogether, then it has NOT already ceased and we SHOULD here discussing God exists or not, because it needs explanation to the believers of their irrationality.

So the only entity existing in all situations of existence is the ABSENCE of a god as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Wherefore: on ultimate terms, God and existence or reality are NON-IDENTICAL CONCEPTS, and anything that is not God is reality, and anything regarding a god, goddess, or other supernatural entity is a creation of the irrational side of man's mind.
ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@yrger You didn't even realize my response was a satire of your meaningless ramblings?
yrger · 80-89, M
@ChipmunkErnie


Hahaha!

All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, in the primordial situation there was nothing but God the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Then God created love so that mankind with his reason and intelligence would love Him as He loves mankind because He created mankind.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Hi Doc, you are still bound to the biblical atheists' God of the Bible, so you are not connected with me, I am into the God as man with reason and intelligence knows Him to exist.

Now, so you should ask me how I worship the God I know from reason and intelligence.

First, you tell me what you mean by worship.



---------------
DocSavage · M
@yrgerLoser
He created love for people who wouldn’t even exist in human form for several billion years. So, now your god has a future sight. Some grand cosmic plan for us. Sounds familiar. So, are you going to go the whole nine yards, as I asked before ? Heaven, Hell, religion, worship ?
And you did so hope to be original. Didn’t you. So when do we get the Ken Ham video ?
yrger · 80-89, M
@whowasthatmaskedman



Hi Whowas, you are dealing with the biblical atheists' God, I am into the God I know to exist from my reason and intelligentce, so you are not connected with me on the issue of God as man knows him from reason and intelligence, not from the Bible.

So, as you are not like cattle and donkeys and frogs, I propose you deal with the God you should know to exist as you have reason and intelligence.

Here is the God not from the Bible but from reason and intelligence:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and evrerything transient."



-----------------

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@yrger Thats a pretty good god you have going there. In fact such a broad reach I cant see how a few souls singing his praises or beseeching while kneeling is going to make a blind bit of difference to his regard for us. Assuming he noticed us at all. If you dont mind, I will continue to sleep in Sundays.😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@yrger Sorry. No god has anything to do with reason and/or intelligence. The nature of faith is that it is without reason and only the unintelligent accept anything with no reason, or worse still, in the face of evidence to the contrary.😷
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
Do you have a degree or certification which justifies that title? Because I'm Rosa the Goddess. Self declared, of course.
Convivial · 26-30, F
@RosaMarie self appointed me thinks
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
@Convivial Indeed.
DocSavage · M
That question indicates that you are rational and intelligent, so let us work together to find out who created god, okay?!

So now you agree , god must have had a creator too. Well, that’s a start.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage



Hi Doc:

You see, you are into the fallacy of infinite regress, it's a fallacy because you never get to answer the question who or what created God, but return to repeat the same question, who or what created God.


To be honest to goodness, you must stop repeating the same question inside your mind, but go outside your mind, and look at the babies and roses in the neighborhood, and admit that an entity that is the permanent and self-existent spirit which I call God, He creates and operates every man and the universe and everything transient.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
You still haven’t shown any evidence for your god.
You have to admit, your god is something completely alien and virtually impossible to the laws physics . Such a being does not, and can not exist in our reality. You can not have any way of perceiving such a being, nor can you conceived such a being without some outside religious influence. Which, is at best, untrustworthy.
I don’t see where it is out of context to question god’s nature or origin.
You say “the buck stops here” why should it ?
DocSavage · M
@yrger
So to believe in god, you have to be out of your mind. Got that.
They have medication for that now.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, I did not say that my God is not the same God of the Bible, you are getting me wrong all the time.


I am telling you that there are three ways man can come to the existence of God:

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

I know God to exist by num 1, reasoning.

You know God exists by mun 2, reading the Bible.

That is why I call you a biblical atheist.

Now, when you dare to use your reason and intelligence, you will come to God as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

When you deny this God to exist, then you are not rationally and not intelligently correct, because you are not accustomed to reason intelligently.

So, I call you an illogical and un-intelligent atheist.

To be an atheist outside the Bible, you must give reasons how and why you deny God exists as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient: but you don't do that at all, you just keep on and on with anger and hatred against God, period.


This is a test to detect whether you can reason or not.
Answer this question from me: Will existence cease to exist altogether? Yes or no.



----------------

DocSavage · M
yrger/Loser

First answer my questions. If your god is not the same as the biblical god. How and why did he invent love for other life that would not exist for billions of years. And would take millions more to evolve into humans. Apparently ignoring the rest of the infinite universe, for one puny blue dot. If your got is self existing, he should have been a blank slate. No knowledge or inherent experience. No understanding of anything . Past, present, or future. Yet processing the power to create all of it from nothingness.
It is as I said, it’s as god was created for for that purpose. And nothing else.
DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser

I’m Atheist , you chunk head. No god of any kind. Just like your intelligence.
Talked about, but nothing in reality. (Any of them )
DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser
The answer is yes. Existence will no longer exist.
DocSavage · M
You have not answerd your own question, who or what created God, so go and jump into the lake and stay there, because you are totally unprofitable here in my thread.

You are out of your mind yrger I answered all your questions.
You forgot you’re dealing with Atheists. We don’t believe in gods to begin with. Did you really expect me to tell you who created the creator god that you created ? You made him up, ( you never proved anything ) just go back and work on the origin story . Use a little imagination ( you don’t have much, use it sparingly)
Humans have been creating gods for centuries, how hard can it be ?
DocSavage · M
@DocSavage
If it helps, Odin had a creator. His grandfather was a massive frost giant
Odin and his brothers killed him , dismembered his body to build the universe, capped off with his skull. Later, they used a couple of trees to make the first humans. They were heavily into recycling.
So you see, even gods can have a creator . All you need is a good writer.
DocSavage · M
, so go and jump into the lake and stay there, because you are totally unprofitable here in my thread.

I would say that’s CHECK MATE yrger. You lose, I win.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Do know why I call you atheist guys, biblical atheists?

Because you guys used to be fundamentalist Bible Christians, then something you experienced made you frustrated with the biblival God, so you abandoned God and became what, biblical atheists.


Tell you what, go and see a psychiatrist to get your life back as normal rational intelligent humans, so that now you can come to know God from reason and intelligence, instead of from the Bible.

On ultimate terms, you by reason and intelligence will arrive at the concept of God, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
This message was deleted by its author.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
On ultimate terms, you by reason and intelligence will arrive at the concept of God, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
SORRY yrger THAT SHIP HAS SAILED ! It hit an ice berg !
LOSER !!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi LordSh, welcome back to my thread, that is a genuine compliment from you to me, appreciate it!



LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
You notice how it's been 23 hours since anybody but me replied to you? That's because you've systematically pissed off anybody who might have potentially given you a serious answer. I'm only here answering you because I get these pesky notifications, and at this point, I still find it mildly amusing to fuck with you. But honestly, you're not even worth it for the entertainment factor.
yrger · 80-89, M
@LordShadowfire

All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
yrger · 80-89, M
@LordShadowfire

All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
yrger · 80-89, M
@LordShadowfire

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
DocSavage · M
Don’t you find it strange that god should literally pop into existence out of nothing with only one purpose in life ?
Think about it, god has no other function, other than to set off the Big Bang, and set the universe in motion. It’s as if someone, or something created god for that exact reason, it’s like he lit the fuse, but didn’t build the bomb.
He was probably killed in the explosion.
Sharon · F
@DocSavage It's funny how christians claim the unverse and life are too complex to have come into existence by chance so posutlate a more complex "intelligent creator" which apparently did.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi ViciD, you say: "The physical processes controlling evolution have always existed."

That is a gratuitous statement, where did you learn that - most likely in a dream.

Evolution is not the origin of life, it presupposes the existence of life, now go backward, and see if you can arrive at the very first step which is the beginning of life, and then ultimatley you will arrive at the entity that is self-existent, it is without beginning, but it gives beginning to everything and continues to operate the process until this self-existent entity has created humans who possess reason and intelligence from this self-existent agent.


Do you now see that there is an ultimate self-existent entity that gives existence to all other instances of existence?


If you don't accept this ultimate self-existent sourse of all non-self-existing realities, what is your explanation for all things which scientists investigate, but they never arrive at an ultimate explanation.


So, you seem to know science but science is all about things which have a beginning, and it does not say that the universe exists permanently.


-------------------

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger Let me clarify.

The physical processes controlling evolution have always existed. Those processes only operate under specific conditions. When the conditions were met, the processes could operate.

Such is the same as gravity and every rule of physics.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger Nothing is conserving energy.

Matter and energy exist.

Matter and energy is neither created nor destroyed.

The conservation is an intrinsic property of matter and energy.
yrger · 80-89, M
@ViciDraco yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
yrger · 80-89, M
@ViciDraco

Hi DocSavage, you say: "From what I’ve read, you changed your definition again."


You are not capable of precision reading.

Tell me what is my previous definition and my present definition, otherwise I feel sorry for you because you are not capable of precision reading.


Go and acquire by practice the skill of precision reading.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone in particular atheists, read the following exchange between me Yrger the theist, and Kwk00, as follows:


yrger · 80-89, M
@Kwek00

You tell me, " ... you just accept that God did it all."

You are wrong, I think rationally and thus intelligently and arrive at the fact and the truth that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Here, let you and me think rationally and intelligently:
1. Scientists tell us the universe has a beginning, so it needs a creator to get to exist. Do you accept that the universe according to scientists have a beginning?

(We will continue if you accept, otherwise you tell me that the universe is always existing, in which case you have to bring forth scientists who maintain that the universe has always been existing.)

--------------------

Kwek00 · 36-40, M
@yrger No... it didn't come from nothingness, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. And if they do, I would love to meet them and ask what their rational is.

I agree we have a mysterie here... so, if this fascinates you (or anyone else), what you should be doing is trying to figure it out and try to find the answer to your question. But you don't, you just accept that God did it all. I don't know why you do it? Could be because you were raised that way or lived in a culture where this idea is really prominent and not challenged in anyway. Could be you are lazy and don't want to do the leggwork and thus just invent an answer that you demand that other people try to proof to be false. Could be your ego just doesn't let you live with an unanswered question. What ever it is, it's not smart.

I don't mind, everyone may read our exchange. The sharper you are, the more I welcome it.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
Scientists tell us the universe has a beginning, so it needs a creator to get to exist.

No scientist tells us it needs a creator to exist.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, I see you all to be biblical atheists, because you all were previously fundamentalist bible Christians; but you all got tired of the biblical God - I can only imagine why.


Suppose you were never exposed to the bible, would you ever become atheists?


There are three ways man knows God exists:

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the bible (or the koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

Prescind from the bible, try reasoning on where you and everything come from on ultimate terms, and you will also come to the existence of God, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
No, we got tired of all gods not just the one in the bible. Since you have no imagination, you apparently aren’t aware of any of the other god that don’t exist either.
There are more ways to know god doesn’t exist.
1) By reasoning
2) By reading the bible or the Koran
3) By accepting facts over fantasy and myth
4) By being honest with others and yourself.
5) By reading other books than the bible and the Koran
You would seem to be incapable of most of them.
daisymay · 51-55, T
@yrger
I see you all to be biblical atheists
You assert opinion as fact. This is flawed reasoning. Therefore, we can safely ignore anything you say on this topic.
Sharon · F
@daisymay
You assert opinion as fact.
That's standard christian hubris. They hope no one will notice they're just spouting BS.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, you still fear to do the supposition.


==================

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, are you hesitant to engage in a supposition, why the fear?

Here is the supposition: You and I we are rational and intelligent, we are curious* about everything, and we never know anything about a bible among Christians.

Being curious and intelligent, not like other living things, for examples: the cattle, the donkey, and yes the frog, we ask ourselves Did something or someone put us here on earth?

So, being rational and thus intelligent and being curious about everything, which everything includes who or what brought us into existence?

From my part, I say something or someone did put us into existence.

What about you, will you maintain that nothing and no one put us into existence, we just popped into existence from nothingness?!




*Recall that curiosity is the mother of invention - that includes discovery.





================

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, I see you all to be biblical atheists, because you all were previously fundamentalist bible Christians; but you all got tired of the biblical God - I can only imagine why.


Suppose you were never exposed to the bible, would you ever become atheists?


There are three ways man knows God exists:

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the bible (or the koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation

Prescind from the bible, try reasoning on where you and everything come from on ultimate terms, and you will also come to the existence of God, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
This message was deleted by its author.
@yrger Wouldn’t say that you’re rational. Can’t even get the common saying correctly. Necessity is the mother of invention. God isn’t necessary.
yrger · 80-89, M
Here is my num 7 statement:
7. Then there was a situation in which the universe did not exist.


You VicDraco say:
"...the entire universe did exist but was condensed into an extremely small space that we have called The Singularity."

Please take notice of this phrase, was condensed.

You use what in grammar we call the third person passive anonymous, now who or what is this third person passive anonymous entity?

I tell you, it is God, the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of the universe and man and everything transient.


--------------------

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
Hi yrger. I pick number seven for where your argument goes off track. Your point 8 and 9 is not rational.

7. There was a point in time that the universe did not exist as we know it. Our best educated guess is that the entire universe did exist but was condensed into an extremely small space that we have called The Singularity. Several of our physical models work in ways that support this case but we are always looking for new evidence to deepen and clarify our understanding. As far as we know, the universe itself is permanent but simply changed in form.
8. We don't know what triggered The Singularity to expand, the event we call the big bang.
9. When we don't know something, that doesn't mean we can just make shit up. We have zero rational reason to inject God as an explanation for something we do not know.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@yrger ‘was condensed’ describes a state, not an action.

No agent is needed.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger I have not made reference to an entity here. Neither explicitly nor implicitly. Causes can be other physical events with no need for an entity to do the causing.

Just like your definition of god, you are manufacturing something that does not exist and injecting it into places it does not belong without rational reason.
DocSavage · M
@yrger in your dreams yrger you are no John Sunlight.

There are several examples in nature that support the idea.
1) Male ants or Bees. They exist for one purpose. To knock up the Queen.
One quickie, and she can produce an entire population. The males die soon after. No interaction, no operation within the nest.
2) Sea Turtles. They come ashore, drop a load of eggs in the sand. And from then on they offspring are on their own. They have no interaction with with their offspring ever again
So, in each case : you have creators that exist for one single function ,
To set things in motion. Without being “permanent “ life continues even when they themselves don’t. And no background microwave radiation.
All of which completely contradicts your conclusions about god’s existence.
yrger · 80-89, M
yrger · 80-89, M
Do atheists love their mothers?

No, they don't love their mothers, and their mothers don't love them either, if mothers are also atheists.

Hahahahahahaha!


I propose that they all see a good psychiatrist, time for them to have a normal life, which consists of love, and joy, and courage, and sacrifice, and of course God, the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.
This comment is hidden. Show Comment
DocSavage · M
@Ynotisay
He’s not a decent man, he’s a sore loser.
Ynotisay · M
@DocSavage A terrible man. Even if he's just some punk troll. I felt sorry for him. Not any more. Block time. No room for that.
yrger · 80-89, M
This is a challenge to atheists and all who don't like God.

You guys don't know philosophy, in particular correct philososphy, that is why you don't think at all and don't write with precision.

Oh, you know philosophy?

Okay, without going to dictionaries, define what is philosophy in less than 75 words.
yrger · 80-89, M
@canusernamebemyusername

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
yrger · 80-89, M
@canusernamebemyusername

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
yrger · 80-89, M
@ViciDraco I have a new thread on "The God of nature and the God of supernature, please go there.
DocSavage · M
So yrger
You got anything else ? I’m still here, not going anywhere.
I would say, Atheists have a sensible reason for denying god, you have something better to add ?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

You are one atheist, so tell me what sensible reason you have for denyig God exists.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
Easy. There is no practical reason for a god to exist, except for providing an excuse for what you don’t know.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Chip, you are wrong because ". . . the ABSENCE of a god . . . " is nothingness, and nothingness is nothingness.

Your error consists in imagining that nothingness is somethingness - in a situation where you suppose there is nothingness prevailing, then you already pop out of all existence, it is you are like Lawrence Krauss who takes nothingess to be somethingness, which is absolutely absurd.


----------------------

ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M
@yrger
The rational intelligent answer is YES, existence will cease to exist, because there is the default situation that God DOES NOT exist as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

If existence can cease altogether, then it has NOT already ceased and we SHOULD here discussing God exists or not, because it needs explanation to the believers of their irrationality.

So the only entity existing in all situations of existence is the ABSENCE of a god as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Wherefore: on ultimate terms, God and existence or reality are NON-IDENTICAL CONCEPTS, and anything that is not God is reality, and anything regarding a god, goddess, or other supernatural entity is a creation of the irrational side of man's mind.
yrger · 80-89, M
@yrger


All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi ViciD, you tell me:
"If I ask you why you steal candy from children and you say that you do not steal candy from children, I cannot then accuse you of not knowing what steal means and say that you do not know crime."


You still don't know philosophy, for if you know philosophy, you will ask me thus:

"If I ask you why you ultimately steal candy from children and you ultimately say that you do not ultimately steal candy from children, I cannot then accuse you ultimately of not knowing what steal means and say that ultimately you do not know crime."



You seem to know science, so you know about the cosmic microwave background radiation (if you don't know about the cosmic microwave background radiation, read up on it).


Now, scientists conclude that the universe has a beginning.

If you know philosophy you will ask the scientists: ultimately who or what brought about the universe because it has a beginning?




----------------

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger You asked me who or what ultimately invented or operates something that was not invented and is not operated.

You cannot ask nonsense questions and then accuse people of not understanding terms or subjects.

If I ask you why you steal candy from children and you say that you do not steal candy from children, I cannot then accuse you of not knowing what steal means and say that you do not know crime.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger

Now, scientists conclude that the universe has a beginning.

They do not conclude that. They conclude that the universe in the form that we recognize it had a beginning. And that prior to that event, the universe was in a different firm that we presently presume was a singularity.

Ultimately the universe was not created. Ultimately the universe did not begin, it changed in form.

If your question is who or what caused that form to change, my answer is that we do not know. We do not have any information from that time.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.





================

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger This has been explained to you before in other posts. Just because your logic is circular does not mean I am going to debate in circles and answer the same questions again and again.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you are not rational wherefore not intelligent at all.

Do you at all read what your write, and see whether you are rational or not?

You declare: " . . . nothing else exist or can exist until he ( God ) creates it."

Yes, but there is God existing in the primordial situation when He has not created anything yet.

That is why I keep telling you and all atheists, that God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.




-------------------

DocSavage · M
Logic requires that when a rational intelligent human -Yrger

yrger/Loser
What has logic have to do with any god ? A self existing god, that lives in a spirit realm without time and space would have no knowledge, experience, to apply logic to anything, because nothing else exist or can exist until he creates it.
yrger · 80-89, M
@LordShadowfire

If you are not an atheist, why are you so hateful and angry against God?

Tell me why, and I might introduce you to God as your reason and and intelligence should bring you to Him.

Here is the God that reason and intelligence should bring man to Him:

"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@yrger So you still cling to your bullshit lies, and then you wonder why no one likes you
yrger · 80-89, M
@LordShadowfire

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists here like Doc.

This is a test to detect whether you can reason or not.
Answer this question from me: Will existence cease to exist altogether? Yes or no.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi all atheists, you are all intellectual cowards, so fearful to do a supposition, you guys can't think at all!



yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, you are all cowards for fearing to do this supposition, though you have a brain, and you are not like cattle, donkeys, and frogs.


Hi all readers, see what intellectual cowards atheists are!

Shame on them all!




yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, you still fear to do the supposition.


==================

yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, are you hesitant to engage in a supposition, why the fear?

Here is the supposition: You and I we are rational and intelligent, we are curious* about everything, and we never know anything about a bible among Christians.

Being curious and intelligent, not like other living things, for examples: the cattle, the donkey, and yes the frog, we ask ourselves Did something or someone put us here on earth?

So, being rational and thus intelligent and being curious about everything, which everything includes who or what brought us into existence?

From my part, I say something or someone did put us into existence.

What about you, will you maintain that nothing and no one put us into existence, we just popped into existence from nothingness?!




*Recall that curiosity is the mother of invention - that includes discovery.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi ViciDraco, please explain this line from you
In fact, our best current understandings of the conservation of energy and matter supports my claim and refutes yours.

You use the word conservation, I ask you, ultimately who or what is conseving energy?


==============

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger

and see if you can arrive at the very first step which is the beginning of life, and then ultimatley you will arrive at the entity that is self-existent, it is without beginning, but it gives beginning to everything and continues to operate the process until this self-existent entity has created humans who possess reason and intelligence from this self-existent agent.

That is not how logic works. That is not how reasoning works. You are taking massive leaps from a domain you are aware of, through territory you have no information about, and arriving at a made up destination that makes you comfortable.

My ultimate conclusion is that there is no ultimate creator because nothing was created. I have just as much information to support my claim as you have to support yours. In fact, our best current understandings of the conservation of energy and matter supports my claim and refutes yours.
yrger · 80-89, M
@yrger yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
RedBaron · M
There is no objectively correct truth because God is the quintessential self-fulfilling prophecy.

God exists for theists and believers BECAUSE they believe, and God does not exist for atheists and non-believers BECAUSE they don’t believe.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
yrger · 80-89, M
@RedBaron

Hi RedBaron, I must commend you for you do care to think rationally but sad, not intelligently - so your attempt at rational thinking was at most fallacious.

Or you got your ideas about God from a kindergarten kid.

Consider these words from you:

"I define god . . . (as) some combination with human conscience, not a divine being with human form."

You claim God to have a human conscience, but not a human form.


Please think again, but this time with genuine reason and intelligence.
RedBaron · M
@yrger You don't read very well, yet you presume to condescend. I did not claim that god has a human conscience. I said that I define god as the physical laws governing nature and the universe IN SOME COMBINATION WITH HUMAN CONSCIENCE. You chose to quote me out of context to make some nebulous, condescending point.

And you have no intelligent response to my point about god having been invented by people because it makes too much sense.

I am done with you.
yrger · 80-89, M
@RedBaron


All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
yrger · 80-89, M
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone and in particular atheists here, what is the fallacy of the socalled circular logic?


First, it is not a fallacy, except to atheists who do not think and act correctly.


Let us suppose that a stranger states: "The dog is similar to a wolf." Then he turns his statement around and says: "The wolf is similar to a dog."

"The dog is similar to a wolf."
"The wolf is similar to a dog."

That according to atheists who do not know how to think and to act correctly, that is the fallacy of circular logic, because the two statements do not state anything new.


Hi readers, you see, the stranger is first describing the wolf or the dog, so that another stranger who does not know what a wolf lools like or a dog looks like, he can now use the description of the dog or the wolf, now go to the objectve reality outside his mind to look for the wolf or the dog, having now known what a wolf or a dog looks like, i.e. look for the concrete existence of the dog or the wolf.


The error of atheists is that they don't go to the objcetive reality to look for evidence of God in the say neighborhood, where we can see babies and roses which are ultimately created by God.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone, in particular atheists, read the exchange below, then explain how and why on ultimate terms we are existing.



CorvusBlackthorne · 46-50, M
@yrger The total lack of evidence leaps to mind...

-----------------------

yrger · 80-89, M
@CorvusBlackthorne

Lack of evidence you say, what about babies and roses in the neighborhood, and also you and I we exist and are rational intelligent living entities, unlike the cattle, the donkeys, and the frogs.


This is how we are evidence of God existing:

1. We did not create ourselves.
2. Our parents gave birth to us.
3. Their parents gave birth to them.
4. We can continue along this line on and on and on.
5. There was a time when no humans existed.
6. There was a time no living entities existed.
7. Then there was a situation in which the universe did not exist.
8. Now we exist and the universe exists.
9. Therefore: God exists - God who is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


Please atheists, explain how and why you and I are existing.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
Asked and answered. Stop wasting time. Run away and hide until the next post. This getting old real fast.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, tell me why you deny God exists, of course you have to first define what is God.

I am Yrger the theist, and here is my definition of God:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."
yrger · 80-89, M
@whowasthatmaskedman Hi Whowas, you have to first know what it is before you can deny it exists.

Otherwise you are irrational and un-intelligent.

Just the same I appreciate your compliment of reading my post and writing to me.
yrger · 80-89, M
@RosaMarie Hi RosaMarie, you have contributed a good post, thanks.


Now, let us suppose you are the human who made the God construct, the construct is a concept in your mind.

Shouldn't you being rational and intelligent go forth into the objective world outside your mind to satisfy your curiosity, to investigate whether there is an entity that corresponds to your construct i.e. concept of God?

So, I ask you what is your construct i.e. concept of God?
RosaMarie · 41-45, F
@yrger I have no concept of God because it does not exist. I also have a fair knowledge of history and decent social awareness. This allows me to talk about the concept of God in the abstract. The concept that is believed by some of my fellow humans. I can do this without actually believing in it. The same way I can talk about Santa Claus without believing in him.
DocSavage · M
What about you, Doc, tell me who or what created God

No idea. As I have been saying , god is a catalyst. It’s what set things in motion. Caused the universe to expand to it current state from a singularity, whatever. Don’t know . But, what I do not see is where you concluded it was a conscious, deliberate act, by a self existing, permanent, self aware , spiritual being. You have refused to explain that aspect of your description. Yet you seem to think anyone who is skeptical of it is un-intelligent. Did you really think that would go unchallenged ?
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi RedBaron, I must commend you for you do care to think rationally but sad, not intelligently - so your attempt at rational thinking was at most fallacious.

Or you got your ideas about God from a kindergarten kid.

Consider these words from you:

"I define god . . . (as) some combination with human conscience, not a divine being with human form."

You claim God to have a human conscience, but not a human form.


Please think again, but this time with genuine reason and intelligence.



-------------------

RedBaron · M
@yrger I can only answer the last part of that. I define god abstractly, as the physical laws governing nature and the universe in some combination with human conscience, not a divine being with human form.

Furthermore, I believe that the biblical account of creation is a myth. God did not create the universe and the beings within it. Instead, everything evolved to the point of human civilization. Religions formed and people actually invented god and the creation myth to explain how everything came about.

Intellectually, that makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi ViciD, can you prove tthat ultimately the universe does not have a beginning, but it changes form only?

Suppose I ask you, ultimately who operates the uinverse so that it changes its forms etc etc etc .


Now, you admit that ". . . (you) do not know . . . (You) do not have any information from that time."

If you know philosophy you will know, so learn to think philosophically.


Try thinking philosophically and answer this question from me: "Is there a self-existent entity or not, yes or no?"






-----------------

ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger
Now, scientists conclude that the universe has a beginning.

They do not conclude that. They conclude that the universe in the form that we recognize it had a beginning. And that prior to that event, the universe was in a different firm that we presently presume was a singularity.

Ultimately the universe was not created. Ultimately the universe did not begin, it changed in form.

If your question is who or what caused that form to change, my answer is that we do not know. We do not have any information from that time.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger I have no proof that the universe does that. Just as you have no proof that there is a spirit creator.

Philosophically, there is no logical path to a spirit creator. You are making baseless presuppositions to fill in gaps in your reasoning.

Why do you fear to not know the answers? Why do you have to make up something to fit into the gap that you do not have knowledge about?

Why don't you know logic? Why do you not know philosophical arguments beyond the obviously incorrect one that you keep repeating?
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, God invented love, in particular God as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


-----------------

DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser
I see. Now you’re claiming that theists invented Love does that also include morality, and ethics too ?
Okay, so tell me, do you also believe in the Devil ? Not the biblical Devil, but an embodiment of evil, bent on corrupting all that god stands for . And if such a being exist, why isn’t god doing anything about it ? After all you claim he’s operating everything from the start. The Devil can’t exist, unless god created him, and controls him.
Sounding very biblical to me. Do you actually have any idea what you believe in , or are just saying anything in a pathetic need for attention?
DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser
God was invented by humans. Any and all power exist because we give it to an illusion. But it’s still nothing more than an illusion. That’s the reality.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Hi atheists, in the primordial situation there was nothing but God the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Then God created love so that mankind with his reason and intelligence would love Him as He loves mankind because He created mankind.
DocSavage · M
@yrger /Loser
You’ve been reading your bible again haven’t you. You obviously ran out of your own bullshit.
Let me know when you get to the part when he knocks up Mary.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Vici, give a concrete example in the objective world outside of words in your mind, on:

"Science is the process of using observable, repeatable evidence in order to formulate educated assumptions as to how the world works. One of the key elements of science is falsifiability, which is the ability to identify situations which if found to be true will prove the current working assumption false."





ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger Science is the process of using observable, repeatable evidence in order to formulate educated assumptions as to how the world works. One of the key elements of science is falsifiability, which is the ability to identify situations which if found to be true will prove the current working assumption false.

Philosophy is typically more involved with questions such as why the world works. It is often focused on finding meaning or purpose. The processes are thought exercises done in order to suppose answers.

At the end of the day though, scientific outcomes are demonstrable. Philosophic outcomes are not.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Whowas, you have to first know what it is before you can deny it exists.

Otherwise you are irrational and un-intelligent.

Just the same I appreciate your compliment of reading my post and writing to me.

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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@yrger Why on earth would I bother to define something that doesnt exist???😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@yrger Your position is the very definition of insanity. I could spend wholw life dreaming up things that dont exist, just so I can deny them. There are plenty of things that do exist. Such pseudo-intellectual trolls who try to look clever by posing situations that draw people in.. A lot like those new AI robo programs. Dont you think??😷
yrger · 80-89, M
@whowasthatmaskedman


All humans who think correctly come to the conclusion that God exists, as the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everythig transient.

The error of atheists with denying God exists is due to their lack of correct philosophical thinking.

In fact atheists don't know philosophy.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@yrger And what of all non humans?? "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"😷
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, I challenge you to read up on the cosmic microwave background radiation.

Tell me what it is all about in less than 75 words.

I will not entertain you if you don't read up on the cosmic microwave backgroun radiation - that shows that you are afraid of science, and science is what I consider to be the evidence for God's existence.
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DocSavage · M
Hey yrger
You said god is self existing. No beginning. Did he just wake up, realized he had the ability to create a universe completely alien to his own nature and with no model or design ? There was no planning stage, no test phase where he experimented to see how or if everything would work ?
Looks like something created god for that function. It’s all he does.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage You say "Looks like something created god for that function."

That question indicates that you are rational and intelligent, so let us work together to find out who created god, okay?!

Hi readers, Doc will go away again, so he is always running away, no courage and rational intelligent curiosity to find out who or what created god.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi Doc, you say I am hoping to get something from the God I know from reason, not hoping but already enjoying His goodness to mankind, for example He gives rain and air and sunshine to all mankind.

Now, if you don't want His gifts, the most logical act is to commit suicide.


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DocSavage · M
@yrger/Loser

Can’t do it can you ? You just keep making false claims to avoid answering questions that totally destroy you definition of god.
All creator gods , biblical or otherwise have supernatural powers. There’s no other way to get the job done. It’s the main reason I don’t believe in any of them. As I said before, when you asked for my description of god.
God is a why, not a what. You and every believer custom design them for the same reason.
You believe in the same god, because you’re hoping to get something from him. You’re trying to hide it. But you need keep him appeased, don’t you.
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yrger · 80-89, M
Hi ViciDraco, scientists deal with the material/physical universe, ultimately the material/physical universe is composed of particles.


The massive Hadron atom particles smasher is still futtilely seeking where does matter com from.

Useless, because the scientists are all wrong as they are ignorant of the fact and the truth that there is the reality of the permanent self-existent entity, which all non-permanent things come from.

You VicoD don't accept that, so tell me where and how and why do particles come from, okay?
yrger · 80-89, M
@ViciDraco

Hi ViciDraco, you claim that the universe is eternal, and I claim that it is not.

Okay, I tell you it is not eternal because scientists tell us that it has a beginning in the Big Bang.

Your turn to tell me why you claim it is eternal.


I will just inform you that nothing composed of parts can be eernal, why? Because it takes time for all its parts to be assembled.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger I've explained to you before about the big bang and change. I've made every attempt to discuss with you in good faith. You have shown an unwillingness to learn. You do not understand reason. You do not understand philosophy. You do not even understand the word ultimately, despite your constant attempts to abuse it.

Good luck with your circular logic. I hope it helps you sleep at night since you are obviously terrified to admit that not knowing is a perfectly acceptable answer.
yrger · 80-89, M
@ViciDraco

Hi ViciDraco, we have discussed about the material/physical universe.

Ultimately it is composed of parts and bits, or in one word, particles.

Now I like to introduce you to the idea that there is the God of nature, as biblical atheists know about the God of supernature.

What about you, are you against the God of nature or the God of supernature?
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, pick one number of the statements below, and explain what and why you understand it the way you do.

(a) Pick one of the statements below.
(b) State what is your comprehension of it.
(c) Explain how and why you comprehend it the way you do.


This is a test for me to discover whether you can think rationally an intelligently.


From Yrger:

This is how we are evidence of God existing:

1. We did not create ourselves.
2. Our parents gave birth to us.
3. Their parents gave birth to them.
4. We can continue along this line on and on and on.
5. There was a time when no humans existed.
6. There was a time no living entities existed.
7. Then there was a situation in which the universe did not exist.
8. Now we exist and the universe exists.
9. Therefore: God exists - God who is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.


Please atheists, explain how and why you and I are existing.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@yrger
Please atheists, explain how and why you and I are existing.

🤷‍♂️ That's not our job.

But if you want to convince us of your claim, you neeed to do more then asking questions and randomly explaining that humans are born from humans.
You type a lot, but say very little.
DocSavage · M
@yrger

I am still challenging you to think why is there something instead of nothing.
Why don’t you ask your “ permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."
As a spirit, he occupies neither time or space even if he actually does exist. So, either it is possible for nothing to exist, or for something to exist in nothing. Of course if god exist in spirit, he wouldn’t leave microwave background radiation. Would he ?
yrger · 80-89, M
There are three ways humans come to know God exists:

1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (or the Koran for Muslims)
3. By meditation


Hi atheists, you are what I call biblical atheists.


Please use reason to know about God, okay?!


I am into reason, and here is my definition of God:
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."


So, hi atheists, let you just prescind from the Bible, let us talk about God as we can and do know Him from reason, intelligence, and yes science.


Okay, atheists, tell me what you know about the cosmic microwave background radiation.


I will not entertain you when you talk about God in the Bible, like the Abrahamic God.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@yrger How does reason get you to God? You are just making something up to fill a whole in your knowledge. That is not reason.
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DocSavage · M
@yrger
I never said anything about a biblical god in any of my replies. I consider god to be a non living , element of unknown nature, that set things in motion. Such an element need not be self existing, or permanent. If it existed only for an instant, that was all that was needed. It served it’s function. In no way do I believe that it has any biblical or religious connection
So any description of god, is equally worthless as yours.

 
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