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How about instead of building a wall at the border ...

... we work with the countries to our south to make them places they don't want to leave? It would be cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Here is the argument against that approach, and here is 3 reasons why it is wrong.

"It's their mess, we shouldn't have to be the ones to clean it up!"

1) That is only partly true. Americans have a long history intervention in the region, and anti-communist driven initiatives of the 1950s-1980s left a considerable mess. We are obligated to pay for some of the clean-up.


2) The anti-communist coups are a damaging legacy that casts a shadow over the now. But it isn't more important than now. Let's admit two facts:

i) The US war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster. It has been devastating in the US, doing far more damage than the drugs themselves ever could. But, as importantly, it puts a lot of resources in the hands of violent criminals in Latin America, making them too powerful for the weak governments there to handle.

This is a North American-made policy choice that is destroying Latin America, and driving their people north.

ii) America's love affair with guns ensures that the drug lords are well armed and capable of overwhelming countries with violence. Put simply, American gun manufacturers know that a part of their market are the drug cartels, and they produce the guns anyway.

While making this point tends to draw a lot of self-righteous noise about individual rights, the 2nd amendment begins "a well-regulated militia ..." not, "unregulated drug cartels...".

So here's a simple proposal: how about [i]not[/i] producing guns for global criminals?

Starve groups like MS-13 of resources and armament, reduce the violence in Latin America and let people stay in their homes rather than coming to the US?

Unlike a wall, it just might work ...🤔
Harriet03 · 41-45, F
[image deleted]
@WoodyAq 🙇
Dlrannie · 31-35, F
@MarmeeMarch Yes I'm well aware that the ancestors of modern day North American Indians came from Asia around 15,000 years ago.
@Dlrannie nice to know others know that the so called native Americans are not so native after all - dosent matter how many years ago -
FreeSpirit1 · 51-55, F
So it's basically all our fault?
👍
@WoodyAq there is a connection - ok so what ? get help
WoodyAq · M
@MarmeeMarch Then you develop a policy that recognizes this connection. And that policy is better at dealing with the problem than the policy that ignores it.

You are making me sad again...
@WoodyAq OK - best that we end the debate. agree to disagree then
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
It's basically the logic behind the Marshall Plan which largely rebuilt Europe for the long-term benefit of the USA in a way where "everyone wins."

The problem is, the mindset today is to focus on blame ("why pay for something that someone else is responsible for"), address [u]short-term[/u] feel good issues (instant gratification), and only recognize zero-sum dynamics ("in order for 'me' to win, everyone else must lose").

That prevailing mindset is what the failing and gutless Baby-trump managed to tap into that has ignited a wildfire of support. Luckily, even the most blazing of wildfires eventually do die out. It's still blazing, but based on recent polling only about 35% out of control.
Northwest · M
If I had a nickel, anytime someone put this up for discussion, I would have a shitload of extra nickels.

I read through this thread, and the usual arguments popped up:

1. "you're placing the blame on us, what about them?". This is why it's very important to teach history in school, or have an understanding of the bigger picture. We never asked any hard questions, when the war on communism, produced the Banana Republics, and I bet you Q$s to donuts, 99 out of 100 of us, can't explain what a banana republic is, and how that plays into the American Continent's current issues.

Even our elected officials, looked the other way, or simply did not bother, because it's "their" problem, not ours. For example, when the CIA toppled the Chilean regime, in 1973, Congress was clueless about it. And that's just a minor example. Not to mention everything that happened under the Reagan administration.

2. It's part of the war on "whites". Whites are not responsible for all the bad stuff. I would like to remind them that it's not about "whites", it's about what was, collectively, done in our name. It also happens, that the people who made all decisions, are mostly old white men.

3. "Stay clear of the 2nd amendment", even though this has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.

So, the logic is: it happened long before I was around, so don't bother me with it. Native Americans: not my problem. Slavery: not my problem. Arming despots all over the world, leading to failed economies: not my problem. War on drugs producing gangs: not my problem.

But, we have a solution: let's build a wall. That will solve all these problems.
Northwest · M
@MarmeeMarch Got it. I will add you to the list of those Hillary meant, when she said deplorables.
@WoodyAq says the ultimate authority - nice open mind
@Northwest Hillary ---lol ok now you are reaching the bottom of the barrel. Did she not marry a southern white man ?
Graylight · 51-55, F
Commie.

Seriously, and to give you are post the attention it merits, these are great points and it's a good idea to be proactive in the world rather than reactive within our own borders.

Unfortunately, that takes foresight and empathy, two qualities noticeably lacking in our society these days. Maybe what we need is a movement, but I worry that it's partly human nature that makes us want to tend to an injury rather than keep it from happening.
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
@Graylight Because everyone admits to multiple accounts here.
WoodyAq · M
@MrBrownstone I do. But I ended up blocking myself ...
Graylight · 51-55, F
@MrBrownstone They might and they might not, but what I say here I'd say in person. The beliefs I have here are the same I have in actual life. There's no need for multiple accounts if you act authentically.
My great aunt got deported in the early 1900s 2 times for having polio finally she got here and was able to start a ranch and make money/ not like the immigrants today - when they come here with all sorts of diseases especially TB which in the USA was almost gone till the influx of Asians in the mid 70s. Now its back -- thank you America for being to sensitive to say or develope any rules against bringing these diseased ppl here. 🖕
WoodyAq · M
@MarmeeMarch I'm not trying to get rid of them ... just make them a lot less available to bad people.

They will use other, less effective methods. Which will be less damaging.
@WoodyAq oh you mean like a calling them names ? - yea that should work
Graylight · 51-55, F
@MarmeeMarch Yes, those are the only two options - guns and sticks & stones. 🙄
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
those guns are smuggled for drugs, it's our underground trade agreement. A better force on the border would impede that without taking our rights
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Something about wanting to expand ICE's authority, rather than shrink it.

I'm not sure though.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq No. Are these two statements not contradicting?

[quote]It is legal... but only because the government has decided to suspend the Constitution at the border.[/quote]

[quote]ICE operates all throughout California. Not just at the border.
[/quote]

Well if you put in your similar approach away from the border as you said, is ICE not already doing that to which you have said is already legal.

I find inconsistency in what you say, therefore I do not think you have any authority on the subject.
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Maybe to you. It has essentially thickened the border, allowing the suspension of rights farther away from the physical border.
Well you make guns illegal then the criminals will find a way to black market sell them - and the USA does more than pleanty to help ppl that dont know how to grow crops and food. What should we do teach them how to make microchips too ? Which by the way many USA companies set up shop and provide jobs to people that would not have anything. Of course these companies are making a profit from cheap labor. But it is better than looking at the sun.

We should make the USA a place that they would not want to come to to get govt freebies and handouts. They will self deport or think twice because they will soon realize that they are not wanted. Charity begins at home - many white people go to bed hungry each night/
@WoodyAq OMG dude -- OK , if you are a criminal YOU CAN GET A GUN FOR FREE - and what is the incentive for a store to sell a gun illegally ? Prison time --oh what fun
WoodyAq · M
@MarmeeMarch Free guns? 😅 yeah, that's a real thing.

Gun companies are handing out free guns.
@WoodyAq why ? even if I owned a lemonade stand I still would charge - anyway I am talking about the local thug on the corner that wants to rob a gas station.
Harriet03 · 41-45, F
Hypocrites, your all immigrants except the Native Americans surely!
Graylight · 51-55, F
@Harriet03 [i]Even[/i] Native Americans.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
So rather than protect your own country you would interfere in the running of other countries? Yeah that works so well. Look at Afghanistan or Iraq or South Vietnam or....
WoodyAq · M
@hippyjoe1955 Nope. Legalize, or decriminalize, treat it as a public health problem.

i.e. Stop the money from going to organized crime.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@WoodyAq And that would accomplish??????
WoodyAq · M
@hippyjoe1955 Reducing the money going to organized crime?

I think the answer to that is obvious...
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." George Orwell, Animal Farm (1945)
Northwest · M
@MarmeeMarch You think he's talking about "animals"? BTW, they're called linear particle accelerators.
@Northwest oh God........
He thinks that HE IS god but he isn't @MarmeeMarch
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
Different laws and codes make that impossible
WoodyAq · M
@MrBrownstone The war on drugs is a federal policy that could be ended tomorrow.
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
@WoodyAq 30 years of wars on a plant. The plant won.
WoodyAq · M
@MrBrownstone That's a great way of putting it.👏
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
Much of the crime also comes from the drug trade. Legalize all drugs, there won't be a reason to get it on the black market.

 
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