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How about instead of building a wall at the border ...

... we work with the countries to our south to make them places they don't want to leave? It would be cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Here is the argument against that approach, and here is 3 reasons why it is wrong.

"It's their mess, we shouldn't have to be the ones to clean it up!"

1) That is only partly true. Americans have a long history intervention in the region, and anti-communist driven initiatives of the 1950s-1980s left a considerable mess. We are obligated to pay for some of the clean-up.


2) The anti-communist coups are a damaging legacy that casts a shadow over the now. But it isn't more important than now. Let's admit two facts:

i) The US war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster. It has been devastating in the US, doing far more damage than the drugs themselves ever could. But, as importantly, it puts a lot of resources in the hands of violent criminals in Latin America, making them too powerful for the weak governments there to handle.

This is a North American-made policy choice that is destroying Latin America, and driving their people north.

ii) America's love affair with guns ensures that the drug lords are well armed and capable of overwhelming countries with violence. Put simply, American gun manufacturers know that a part of their market are the drug cartels, and they produce the guns anyway.

While making this point tends to draw a lot of self-righteous noise about individual rights, the 2nd amendment begins "a well-regulated militia ..." not, "unregulated drug cartels...".

So here's a simple proposal: how about [i]not[/i] producing guns for global criminals?

Starve groups like MS-13 of resources and armament, reduce the violence in Latin America and let people stay in their homes rather than coming to the US?

Unlike a wall, it just might work ...馃
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MarmeeMarchM
My great aunt got deported in the early 1900s 2 times for having polio finally she got here and was able to start a ranch and make money/ not like the immigrants today - when they come here with all sorts of diseases especially TB which in the USA was almost gone till the influx of Asians in the mid 70s. Now its back -- thank you America for being to sensitive to say or develope any rules against bringing these diseased ppl here. 馃枙
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch Again: invest in helping, or at least [u]don't invest in hurting[/u], people in their own countries. Then they will stay in their own countries. And then the disease issue is a moot point.

You seem incapable of grasping the very simple logic behind this proposition.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq I know exactly what you are saying in the long post that has everything from - immigration to guns - to drugs. So Ill pick on one - how about we stay out of world affairs good or bad. And use the money to help pur people here.
Graylight51-55, F
@MarmeeMarch It's the disease of ignorance and apathy spread by indigenous people here I'd worry most about.
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch Sure. Seems to work for North Korea.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq Maybe a place you should think of living then because the USA is such a horrible place
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch Again, missing the point.

The point, again, is that if we want to solve certain problems, we should choose policies that, you know, solve the problems.

And we should do it while trying not to cause new problems.

I gather you think that isn't the American way.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq Why are we responsible for that ? Cant other countries take care of themselves ? obviously not.
Graylight51-55, F
@MarmeeMarch Maybe think in terms of human, not country.

If you saw someone drowning in the lake in front of you, would you first ask to see their passport?
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch No, they can't. For a number of reasons.

But by arming their criminals, we aren't making it easy for them, are we?
MarmeeMarchM
@Graylight Obviously of course - if you saw someone breaking Federal Immigration law, would you ask for their passport ? Think of the human aspect ? - charity begins at home
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq Again it is the USA fault for all the troubles of the world by giving / selling weapons to harm themselves - which I can not see the connection but then again I am not as smart as you.
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch It goes back to: don't sell guns to criminals.

We could build a wall to prevent people from going out ... rather than coming in.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq uh - they are called jails and prisons
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch Imprison everyone who has purchased a gun in order to honour the second amendment?

Interesting proposal 馃
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq uh -- no ------imprison anyone that uses a gun in the commission of a crime
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch That only helps after the crime is committed. If you catch them.

And it is expensive. I'm looking for cheap, effective alternatives.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq you are not going to get rid of guns - even if you did and all weapons went away overnight ppl wil still make something to hurt others.
WoodyAqM
@MarmeeMarch I'm not trying to get rid of them ... just make them a lot less available to bad people.

They will use other, less effective methods. Which will be less damaging.
MarmeeMarchM
@WoodyAq oh you mean like a calling them names ? - yea that should work
Graylight51-55, F
@MarmeeMarch Yes, those are the only two options - guns and sticks & stones. 馃檮