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How about instead of building a wall at the border ...

... we work with the countries to our south to make them places they don't want to leave? It would be cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Here is the argument against that approach, and here is 3 reasons why it is wrong.

"It's their mess, we shouldn't have to be the ones to clean it up!"

1) That is only partly true. Americans have a long history intervention in the region, and anti-communist driven initiatives of the 1950s-1980s left a considerable mess. We are obligated to pay for some of the clean-up.


2) The anti-communist coups are a damaging legacy that casts a shadow over the now. But it isn't more important than now. Let's admit two facts:

i) The US war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster. It has been devastating in the US, doing far more damage than the drugs themselves ever could. But, as importantly, it puts a lot of resources in the hands of violent criminals in Latin America, making them too powerful for the weak governments there to handle.

This is a North American-made policy choice that is destroying Latin America, and driving their people north.

ii) America's love affair with guns ensures that the drug lords are well armed and capable of overwhelming countries with violence. Put simply, American gun manufacturers know that a part of their market are the drug cartels, and they produce the guns anyway.

While making this point tends to draw a lot of self-righteous noise about individual rights, the 2nd amendment begins "a well-regulated militia ..." not, "unregulated drug cartels...".

So here's a simple proposal: how about [i]not[/i] producing guns for global criminals?

Starve groups like MS-13 of resources and armament, reduce the violence in Latin America and let people stay in their homes rather than coming to the US?

Unlike a wall, it just might work ...๐Ÿค”
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FreeSpirit1 ยท 51-55, F
So it's basically all our fault?
๐Ÿ‘
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@FreeSpirit1 naturally -
WoodyAq ยท M
@FreeSpirit1 I wouldn't put it like that.

If you want to assign blame, there is a lot to go around. But yes, a good portion of it belongs to us. We should accept that.

But beyond assigning blame: if immigration is a huge problem, then we should follow policies that best solve the problem. What we have here is our government is deliberately following policies that create problems that the government needs more resources to fix. And the "fixes" create problems that require more resources... etc.

I'm saying, "why not stop causing the problems in the first place?"
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@FreeSpirit1 You are right - its all whitey's fault.
WoodyAq ยท M
@MarmeeMarch That's what you got out of this? ๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™€๏ธ

Whitey has a remarkable capacity for missing the point.
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@WoodyAq oh well that whitey for ya.
WoodyAq ยท M
@MarmeeMarch Yep. Hence the stupid policies whitey insists we follow.
luckranger71 ยท 51-55, M
@FreeSpirit1 Well, with the exception of FDR and JFK, yeah. US policy towards Latin America has been generally a failure for well over a century.
FreeSpirit1 ยท 51-55, F
@luckranger71 It's amazing so many still want to live here, we are terrible
luckranger71 ยท 51-55, M
@FreeSpirit1 Um, that has nothing to do with the point.
WoodyAq ยท M
@FreeSpirit1 ๐Ÿค”๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™€๏ธ We foster violence in their countries, and so they gravitate to where it is more peaceful.

We crash the global financial system, and the money comes flowing into America.

etc.

The problem is that we are very good of exporting the costs of our bad decisions to other countries.

It is a lot more pleasant to be in the eye of a hurricane than battered by the winds.
luckranger71 ยท 51-55, M
Pretty much. Unless FS is a relation of John Foster Dulles, Kissinger or Nixon, she really shouldnโ€™t be taking offense. ๐Ÿ˜‚. To be clear, itโ€™s the American governmentโ€™s fault. @WoodyAq
FreeSpirit1 ยท 51-55, F
@WoodyAq I know, we are awful, good for nothing selfish people. Other countries problems are our fault and they are innocent little lambs incapable of fixing thier own problems. We are also corrupt and they are pure as the driven snow.
The solution is for us to take all their motivated people who want to leave.
WoodyAq ยท M
@FreeSpirit1 Let's try to be grown ups here.

We are stronger than other countries, and we have more capacity to deal with issues.

We are an elephant on the globe, we roll over, every one feels it.

So: two propositions. One, recognize the way our actions affect others, and take responsibility for them.

Recognize other countries are weaker, and try not to kick them while they're down.

As I say it, it actually sounds like a pretty Christian outlook.

I gather you aren't a Christian? (No judgment: other outlooks also have their merits).
MarmeeMarch ยท M
TRANSLATION:

We are better than other countries

Anything we do is felt throughout the world

So. lets throw the American tax payer dollars at a problem that other countries have and pay for their mistakes.

Think that the USA is the home of the master race.

As he says - force your beliefs on to others that may not want our help

I gather you are a Christian if not - you should be - just like me.
WoodyAq ยท M
@MarmeeMarch [quote] So. lets throw the American tax payer dollars at a problem that other countries have and pay for their mistakes.[/quote]

Nope. Missed it again.

Let's not throw American taxpayer dollars at the problem... the war on drugs has been a collosally expensive failure, the wall is an expensive waste of time, etc ...

And let's pay for [u]our[/u] mistakes.

Or perhaps you are claiming we never make any?
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@WoodyAq all right --all right ---what is your solution to a problem - pick one and give a solution.
luckranger71 ยท 51-55, M
@WoodyAq No, no. The American government has always acted with the best interests of all mankind at heart. Particularly our Southern neighbors. Except when itโ€™s Deep State opposes President Trump. Then itโ€™s evil. ๐Ÿ˜‚
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@WoodyAq because - Ill pick one - overpopulation - how about Norplant ? no ? Over population is big because it usurps the already thinned out resources that these poor countries have/ and put a rubber on their dicks too.
MarmeeMarch ยท M
Does China need a billion ppl ? 3 times the population of the USA - does India need a billion ppl ? 3x times the amount of the USA -- Both countries about the same size as the USA
WoodyAq ยท M
@MarmeeMarch I no longer can follow what you are talking about.
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@WoodyAq OK - you said that we should help other countries from hurting themselves -- pick and issue and tell me what you would do -- I already picked one - overpopulation and gave a solution.
MarmeeMarch ยท M
@WoodyAq if you can not follow me anymore then maybe you need to take a nap.
WoodyAq ยท M
@MarmeeMarch or maybe you should try and get back on the rails.
room101 ยท 51-55, M
@MarmeeMarch You picked a "problem" that's thousands of miles away from your borders so.......not relevant to the discussion. Furthermore, China did try to address their population problem by imposing a one child limit on families.
luckranger71 ยท 51-55, M
@WoodyAq If that was directed to me, I was merely pointing out the inconsistency of our Trump supporting friend on this issue. They act like the U.S. government has always been a force for good in Latin America and Mexico. Then believe that same organs of that government are plotting against Trump.