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How about instead of building a wall at the border ...

... we work with the countries to our south to make them places they don't want to leave? It would be cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Here is the argument against that approach, and here is 3 reasons why it is wrong.

"It's their mess, we shouldn't have to be the ones to clean it up!"

1) That is only partly true. Americans have a long history intervention in the region, and anti-communist driven initiatives of the 1950s-1980s left a considerable mess. We are obligated to pay for some of the clean-up.


2) The anti-communist coups are a damaging legacy that casts a shadow over the now. But it isn't more important than now. Let's admit two facts:

i) The US war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster. It has been devastating in the US, doing far more damage than the drugs themselves ever could. But, as importantly, it puts a lot of resources in the hands of violent criminals in Latin America, making them too powerful for the weak governments there to handle.

This is a North American-made policy choice that is destroying Latin America, and driving their people north.

ii) America's love affair with guns ensures that the drug lords are well armed and capable of overwhelming countries with violence. Put simply, American gun manufacturers know that a part of their market are the drug cartels, and they produce the guns anyway.

While making this point tends to draw a lot of self-righteous noise about individual rights, the 2nd amendment begins "a well-regulated militia ..." not, "unregulated drug cartels...".

So here's a simple proposal: how about [i]not[/i] producing guns for global criminals?

Starve groups like MS-13 of resources and armament, reduce the violence in Latin America and let people stay in their homes rather than coming to the US?

Unlike a wall, it just might work ...馃
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hippyjoe195561-69, M
So rather than protect your own country you would interfere in the running of other countries? Yeah that works so well. Look at Afghanistan or Iraq or South Vietnam or....
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 [u]No[/u]. I would rather protect our own by reducing the harm [u]our[/u] policies do to other countries.

Because, for example, our armed drug interdiction efforts in Mexico and Guatemala and Colombia really haven't worked well.

I don't know why these ideas are [u]so[/u] difficult for some people to grasp. They seem like common sense to me.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq What harm would that be say in a place like Venezuela?
WoodyAqM
Venezuela's wounds are mostly self-inflicted.

But they are being enabled by other countries in the region who use our policy blunders as an excuse not to help the situation. So our stupidity is their alibi.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq So does that mean your strategy of interfering in other countries is a good idea or a bad idea?
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 What do you mean by interference?

We buy oil from Venezuela. It uses the money to fund its military. It's military is linked with organized crime. Interference?

I go as a tourist to Mexico. The Mexican government taxes ... etc. Interference?
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq So what should the US or any other country do? If you buy oil or you don't buy oil you are interfering in another nation.
Graylight51-55, F
@hippyjoe1955 I think you equating interference with the results of globalization. Nations work with each other, trade with each other, aid each other... We also dictate foreign policies, topple and install leaders, conduct foreign affairs under the guise of humanitarian effort.

It's inevitable that nations touch other nations. It's what we decide to do and how we do it that make all the difference.
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 I guess the point is that it can't ever be as go all in/stay completely out.

It's about finding a good mix of policies that work well with the policies of other countries. Some of America's policies really haven't worked well: in this case, America's completely inward focused gun policy and outwardly focused drug enforcement is a bad combination in relation to Latin America.

It then causes bad immigration policy.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq What makes you think your best intentions will be met with open arms from someone else?
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 I think it'll at least as well received as our worst intentions, and probably better.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq You are arguing facts not in evidence.
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 Well, the facts that are in evidence (and I've heard this first hand from three former Latin American presidents) are that America's demand for drugs, it's oversupply of guns, and its frequent demands that these countries themselves spend resources they don't have on combating drug suppliers frequently took more than the fragile governing institutions could handle.

That meant that it was very difficult to guarantee the rule of law throughout their countries. Which leads to violence, which leads to people fleeing their homes. Which leads to America's immigration problem.

In it is in that context that when regional disasters happen, like Venezuela, governments don't have the capacity to cope with them.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq So you are going to shut down the American usage of illegal drugs how?
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 Nope. Legalize, or decriminalize, treat it as a public health problem.

i.e. Stop the money from going to organized crime.
hippyjoe195561-69, M
@WoodyAq And that would accomplish??????
WoodyAqM
@hippyjoe1955 Reducing the money going to organized crime?

I think the answer to that is obvious...