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How about instead of building a wall at the border ...

... we work with the countries to our south to make them places they don't want to leave? It would be cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Here is the argument against that approach, and here is 3 reasons why it is wrong.

"It's their mess, we shouldn't have to be the ones to clean it up!"

1) That is only partly true. Americans have a long history intervention in the region, and anti-communist driven initiatives of the 1950s-1980s left a considerable mess. We are obligated to pay for some of the clean-up.


2) The anti-communist coups are a damaging legacy that casts a shadow over the now. But it isn't more important than now. Let's admit two facts:

i) The US war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster. It has been devastating in the US, doing far more damage than the drugs themselves ever could. But, as importantly, it puts a lot of resources in the hands of violent criminals in Latin America, making them too powerful for the weak governments there to handle.

This is a North American-made policy choice that is destroying Latin America, and driving their people north.

ii) America's love affair with guns ensures that the drug lords are well armed and capable of overwhelming countries with violence. Put simply, American gun manufacturers know that a part of their market are the drug cartels, and they produce the guns anyway.

While making this point tends to draw a lot of self-righteous noise about individual rights, the 2nd amendment begins "a well-regulated militia ..." not, "unregulated drug cartels...".

So here's a simple proposal: how about not producing guns for global criminals?

Starve groups like MS-13 of resources and armament, reduce the violence in Latin America and let people stay in their homes rather than coming to the US?

Unlike a wall, it just might work ...🤔
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Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
those guns are smuggled for drugs, it's our underground trade agreement. A better force on the border would impede that without taking our rights
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Border enforcement itself infringes on our rights.

Which is fine for people who don't travel, I guess.

But invidual rights are still being infringed upon.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq what right is infringed, some "human right?"
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand No. The right not to be arbitrarily strip searched without probable cause, etc.

In addition to being "some human right" as you so scornfully put it, I'm pretty sure that's one of them "constitutionally guaranteed" rights.

There are more Amendments than just the 2nd one, you know.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq lol, so many people don't understand probable cause and from what I know we don't get strip searched when we drive through a checkpoint
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Well, you haven't. Yet. Or your phone seized and private data searched through. Or being subjected to intrusive interrogation just because you are crossing an arbitrarily designated physical point.

Let's put it this way: if the Chicago police tried on (white) people in the city what ICE routinely gets away with at the border, the lawsuits would bankrupt the city within a year.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq If it was such a violation then the lawsuits would still be there but I'm guessing they aren't because it was legal
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand It is legal... but only because the government has decided to suspend the Constitution at the border.

Also, they tend not to pick on people who have the resources to defend their rights in court.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq And how would they know that?
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Profiling. Obviously.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq no, explain
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand They disproportionately choose the young, people of colour, people who don't smell of "old money" - obviously the poorer people.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq And you can prove it wasn't coincidence from other factors?
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand I can prove that if a similar approach were applied away from the border, it would be illegal.

Or maybe you think ICE agents in California are searching white people with the same frequency as Hispanics?
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq Oh, those people that look like the ones approaching from that border? That makes sense. But I thought it was the poor people that were being hassled. There's your difference though, there would be little reason to think a person in Minnesota had just crossed the border.
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand ICE operates all throughout California. Not just at the border.

And "people who look like the ones" is the very definition of profiling.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq Why did you say you'd try it away from the border then? And what happened to the poor profiling?

Let me tell you the difference between profiling a black man in Virginia for crime and this. They aren't looking for a black man.
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand 😅 Oh, and I thought I was white ...

What I said was I would make it more attractive for people not to move. Not persecute for them for trying to.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq you said you'd prove it away from the border, you just said they go all over Cali. You need to make up your mind
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand That's not what I said at all.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq yes it is.

I can prove that if a similar approach were applied away from the border, it would be illegal.
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand That's what I said. That isn't what you are saying I said.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq what am I saying then?
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Something about wanting to expand ICE's authority, rather than shrink it.

I'm not sure though.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@WoodyAq No. Are these two statements not contradicting?

It is legal... but only because the government has decided to suspend the Constitution at the border.

ICE operates all throughout California. Not just at the border.

Well if you put in your similar approach away from the border as you said, is ICE not already doing that to which you have said is already legal.

I find inconsistency in what you say, therefore I do not think you have any authority on the subject.
WoodyAq · M
@Jackaloftheazuresand Maybe to you. It has essentially thickened the border, allowing the suspension of rights farther away from the physical border.