Israel is an illegal illegitimate country that should not have it's own sovereign existence
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SW-User
@ArishMell I changed colonial power to Britain and I'll leave it at that. I get your point though.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User Thank you. We'd stopped gaining colonies long by then!
ArishMell · 70-79, M
Not by Britain - though originally a British suggestion - but by the League of Nations.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
It is neither illegal nor illegitimate in international law as it was established by the League of Nations, but the decision and the way it was done was bad enough to have created a festering sore in which Israel now, is as bad as Hamas.
It was partitioned from Palestine, which been a British Protectorate against the Turks.
Since then Israel has hardly helped herself by her own actions including land-grabs, to co-exist with the Arabs. The actions of Hamas and their ilk are terrorist, yes, but while we cannot and must not condone them, we can understand them. They see in turn, Israel backed by the USA as a threat to the Palestinians' right to live as they wish in their ancient land.
While for the USA to have decreed unilaterally - albeit foolishly agreed by the Israeli government of the time - to move this foreign nation's capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, was one of the worst decisions of modern international politics, short of actual war.
I don't know if it was a deliberate move to further US interests, or an appalling crass blunder by people with little or no international diplomatic experience, though anyone could have realised it would make a delicate situation even less tractable. Jerusalem is a key city for all three Abrahamic religions, hence it had been kept fairly neutral. That move, by a foreign nation many Muslims dislike intensely for its interference in the Middle East, badly damaged or even destroyed what delicate neutrality and uneasy peace had existed. Sadly not enough other countries condemned the move in sufficiently uncertain terms.
It was partitioned from Palestine, which been a British Protectorate against the Turks.
Since then Israel has hardly helped herself by her own actions including land-grabs, to co-exist with the Arabs. The actions of Hamas and their ilk are terrorist, yes, but while we cannot and must not condone them, we can understand them. They see in turn, Israel backed by the USA as a threat to the Palestinians' right to live as they wish in their ancient land.
While for the USA to have decreed unilaterally - albeit foolishly agreed by the Israeli government of the time - to move this foreign nation's capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, was one of the worst decisions of modern international politics, short of actual war.
I don't know if it was a deliberate move to further US interests, or an appalling crass blunder by people with little or no international diplomatic experience, though anyone could have realised it would make a delicate situation even less tractable. Jerusalem is a key city for all three Abrahamic religions, hence it had been kept fairly neutral. That move, by a foreign nation many Muslims dislike intensely for its interference in the Middle East, badly damaged or even destroyed what delicate neutrality and uneasy peace had existed. Sadly not enough other countries condemned the move in sufficiently uncertain terms.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
Israel is possibly the most "legitimate " nation on the planet.. The British Mandate over Palestine expired in 1948, leaving the area stateless and the Leading Jewish Council proclaimed the state of Israel, with was immediately recognised by the United states.. And Ultimately the United nations.. And when you cut to the chase, it was a useless lump of desert with no formal government before that..😷
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Northwest Its probably best for me to back away here, simply because I get bogged down in Palestines GNP at the time, plus the fact that the rest of the world was coming slowly out of the Great Depression and Palestine was not in control of its own destiny at the time. So even though the numbers support me, there is way too much mud in the water for me...So lets agree to disagree..😷
Northwest · M
@whowasthatmaskedman You lost me at "Palestines GNP at the time". There was NO Palestine in 1948. Palestine referred to a geographical area, not an official state.
[quote]So even though the numbers support me[/quote]
I would love to see what the numbers are, for a state that did not exist back in 1948, and does not even exist today.
[quote]So even though the numbers support me[/quote]
I would love to see what the numbers are, for a state that did not exist back in 1948, and does not even exist today.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Northwest OK. This is me out: Just refering to Wikipedia on the economy of the region (to which I an referring, not the political entity) outlines the very difficulties I described. Not the least of which is the massive inflow of post war Jews who were responsible for the majority of the activity and growth. Its a herculian task to extract that, but one you remove that input, plus the previous British activity associated with the Iraqi oilfields, the portion provided by the Palestinian Arabs was negligable.
I wont engage further on what is really a minor point...😷
I wont engage further on what is really a minor point...😷
LeopoldBloom · M
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@butterflybaby75 [quote]But why do the people subscribing to Jewish faith get to have their own country purely because of their nominated religious beliefs?[/quote]
I would refer you back to my comment for my answer to that. They were in possession of the land for thousands of years, and were forced out by the Roman empire. The people now known as the Palestinians came into the picture sometime after the land was vacated and said," Hey, cool. This is now Palestine." They occupied the land for less than 2,000 years, as opposed to the Jews, who had it for three or four times that.
Basically the same reason I don't really consider the United States or Canada to be fully legitimate countries.
I would refer you back to my comment for my answer to that. They were in possession of the land for thousands of years, and were forced out by the Roman empire. The people now known as the Palestinians came into the picture sometime after the land was vacated and said," Hey, cool. This is now Palestine." They occupied the land for less than 2,000 years, as opposed to the Jews, who had it for three or four times that.
Basically the same reason I don't really consider the United States or Canada to be fully legitimate countries.
BohemianBoo · M
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@BohemianBoo I mean, like Corvus said, if we keep pulling this thread, the United States was founded on colonialism and genocide. If we're giving things back to the people we stole them from, millions of so-called Americans are going to be wandering the globe.
BohemianBoo · M
@LordShadowfire Yeah, it's a stupid idea. The only people who should be punished for stealing land are the people who actually did it. Like the Jewish Settlers that steal Palestine land and the government that aides them. But I don't think the entire Israeli population should be forced out just because they were born there.
ProfessorPlum77 · 70-79, MVIP
Northwest · M
@butterflybaby75 [quote]Racism because Isreal and Jewish people in general, especially in business/government/banking circles, think they are elite and better than everyone else.[/quote]
You seem to be pushing anti-semite tropes. Is this what you're going for here?
You seem to be pushing anti-semite tropes. Is this what you're going for here?
Northwest · M
Israel was created and approved by the UN, following a UN partition offer, in 1947, that was rejected by Arab countries that controlled the parts of the area, that were not part of the part that was offered to Israel.
You can debate whether Jewish European refugees were legally entitled to Arab properties in the part that's Israel, but then we would have to debate whether the Wallowa Valley belongs to the descendants of Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce.
What happened since, is an illegal occupation of the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The latter was annexed, with US blessing during the Trump administration.
Today, Netanyahu leads an extremist, Orthodox government, and he stopped pretending that he does not want to kick the occupants of the West Bank and make it part of Israel. That's illegal under "International law".
Sec. Blinken is trying to negotiate, but the damage was already done during the Trump administration, when he put his idiot son-in-law in charge. There will be a lot of violence.
You can debate whether Jewish European refugees were legally entitled to Arab properties in the part that's Israel, but then we would have to debate whether the Wallowa Valley belongs to the descendants of Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce.
What happened since, is an illegal occupation of the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The latter was annexed, with US blessing during the Trump administration.
Today, Netanyahu leads an extremist, Orthodox government, and he stopped pretending that he does not want to kick the occupants of the West Bank and make it part of Israel. That's illegal under "International law".
Sec. Blinken is trying to negotiate, but the damage was already done during the Trump administration, when he put his idiot son-in-law in charge. There will be a lot of violence.
Yes, quite. It is as the old story goes.
When Moses and Aaron first set foot in the land now known as Israel, four thousand years ago, the first thing they did was to run off all the Palestinians who were living there.
When Moses and Aaron first set foot in the land now known as Israel, four thousand years ago, the first thing they did was to run off all the Palestinians who were living there.
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@basilfawlty89 Well, yeah, but most of the people who were occupying the area before the Hebrews came along are extinct now, or so I've been led to believe.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@LordShadowfire yes and no. Palestinians have a unique identity. Arab is really just a linguistic term. For example most Lebanese Maronites speak Arabic, but their culture is descended from the Phoenicians, their liturgical language also isn't Arabic. It's like the term Latino or Hispanics. It doesn't necessarily refer to one culture or one race.
The historical ancestors of the present day Palestinians are Canaanite and Anatolian and they cluster genetically with Mizrachi Jewish people.
The historical ancestors of the present day Palestinians are Canaanite and Anatolian and they cluster genetically with Mizrachi Jewish people.
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@basilfawlty89 Oh, crap...
LeopoldBloom · M
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
@LeopoldBloom Bingo.
Graylight · 51-55, F
@eMortal Not quite. While the year of independent statehood is correct, there has been a settlement in Israel for thousands of years. From 1517 to 1917, what is today Israel, along with much of the Middle East, was ruled by the Ottoman Empire.
But World War I dramatically altered the geopolitical landscape in the Middle East. In 1917, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour submitted a letter of intent supporting the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The British government hoped that the formal declaration—known as the Balfour Declaration—would encourage support for the Allies in World War I.
When World War I ended in 1918 with an Allied victory, the 400-year Ottoman Empire rule ended, and Great Britain took control over what became known as Palestine (modern-day Israel, Palestine and Jordan).
The British controlled Palestine until Israel, in the years following the end of World War II, became an independent state in 1947.
But World War I dramatically altered the geopolitical landscape in the Middle East. In 1917, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour submitted a letter of intent supporting the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The British government hoped that the formal declaration—known as the Balfour Declaration—would encourage support for the Allies in World War I.
When World War I ended in 1918 with an Allied victory, the 400-year Ottoman Empire rule ended, and Great Britain took control over what became known as Palestine (modern-day Israel, Palestine and Jordan).
The British controlled Palestine until Israel, in the years following the end of World War II, became an independent state in 1947.
Funlov · M
@Roundandroundwego I no what I no and that’s all but there is always more then people think they no and as far by as this I know a lot my younger brother is there right now
Funlov · M
@Roundandroundwego so if you are just getting your news off tv you don’t no much right 👍😊
LordShadowfire · 100+, M
@CorvusBlackthorne One of his disciples, no doubt.
butterflybaby75 · 46-50, F
@LordShadowfire Donald Trump is a neo nazi
CelestiaStella · 22-25, F
You are engaged in delegitimization.
[quote]Delegitimization is the process of constructing a "categorization of groups into extreme social categories which are ultimately excluded from society". Delegitimization provides "the moral and the discursive basis to harm the delegitimized group, even in the most inhumane ways".
Daniel Bar-Tal identified five rhetorical strategies by which delegitimization occurs: dehumanization (e.g. "civilized savages"), trait characterization ("idiots", "parasites"), outcasting ("murderers", "terrorists"), use of political labels ("Nazis", "imperialists"), and delegitimization by group comparison (e.g. with the Huns). Volpato et al. found eight delegitimizing strategies, including trait characterization, political labels, group comparison, segregation, outcasting and using a delegitimized group to stigmatize another group. For example, images of derogated target groups were published in the Italian Fascist magazine La Difesa della Razza in the 1930s.[/quote]
[quote]Delegitimization is the process of constructing a "categorization of groups into extreme social categories which are ultimately excluded from society". Delegitimization provides "the moral and the discursive basis to harm the delegitimized group, even in the most inhumane ways".
Daniel Bar-Tal identified five rhetorical strategies by which delegitimization occurs: dehumanization (e.g. "civilized savages"), trait characterization ("idiots", "parasites"), outcasting ("murderers", "terrorists"), use of political labels ("Nazis", "imperialists"), and delegitimization by group comparison (e.g. with the Huns). Volpato et al. found eight delegitimizing strategies, including trait characterization, political labels, group comparison, segregation, outcasting and using a delegitimized group to stigmatize another group. For example, images of derogated target groups were published in the Italian Fascist magazine La Difesa della Razza in the 1930s.[/quote]
SW-User
@butterflybaby75 [quote]Isreal never existed before 1948, and doesn't have a legitmate reason to exist as a sovereign entity.[/quote]Well, what about countries created after 1948, like Kosovo, South Sudan and, oh, ALL the former African colonies? Are they illegitimate as well?
Human1000 · 51-55, M
@butterflybaby75 Your understanding of the Middle East post World War 1 is absolute zero. I wasn’t aware anyone could know so little and offer an opinion. 👏
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Human1000 There is some truth to this..Of all nations on earth, Israel is probably the closest tied to both land and religion and its "creation myth" is fresh in the Holocaust and very real in living memory still.. Israel sees its right to exist as absolute and sacred and many of its people will die before giving it up again.. That makes them dangerous to anyone they see as a threat in a way few nations are...😷
Human1000 · 51-55, M
@whowasthatmaskedman Although Zionism was a powerful force before WW 2, the partition plan included an "Israel." Without the Holocaust I don't know if that would have happened. Unfortunately, in a grotesque irony, the wrong lessons were learned from "Never Forget." I am not challenging whether Israel should exist as a country, but they do not hold a monopoly on lessons learned from the Holocaust. As a Jew myself, Israel is a shonde, which is Yiddish for a disgrace and a shame.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@Human1000 I agree. America and later the UN certainly recognised the State of Israel as legitimate so quickly, as a bizarre form of compensation for Hitlers atrocities.. Mel Brookes himself observed that Hitler would turn in his grave (if he had one) to think that he bore a great responsibilty for the creation of Modern Israel...😷
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
I wouldn't go that far.
The way it was created is far from ideal and definitely the state of Israel has deep issues, but I don't think Jewish people having a right to self determination is wrong.
And I could argue does any state really have a logical right to exist. In fact, if we're gonna point fingers, Turkey and Azerbaijan solely exist because of genocide and ethnic cleansing of their Armenian, Assyrian, Udi, Yazidi and Kurdish minorities.
The way it was created is far from ideal and definitely the state of Israel has deep issues, but I don't think Jewish people having a right to self determination is wrong.
And I could argue does any state really have a logical right to exist. In fact, if we're gonna point fingers, Turkey and Azerbaijan solely exist because of genocide and ethnic cleansing of their Armenian, Assyrian, Udi, Yazidi and Kurdish minorities.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@froggtongue which indigenous people? We're not all a monolith you know? I'm can guarantee you, my ancestors the Nahua definitely weren't fond of outsiders taking our land, seeing as we had the Toltec, Tlaxcaltec and Aztec Empires. I think the Mayans feel similar.
froggtongue · M
@basilfawlty89 ah. Yes. As usual, a much more complex problem than i originally realized.
@froggtongue [quote]I do think more should be done to allow sovereignty to the native people, or at least more support.[/quote]
Given the fact that the land will never return to the people who formerly occupied it, this would be the next best thing.
Given the fact that the land will never return to the people who formerly occupied it, this would be the next best thing.
Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M
Do you feel the same way about the United States and Canada?
@Harmonium1923 If she doesn't, then she is a hypocrite.
Graylight · 51-55, F
How's that? And who are you to say?
Funlov · M
Really and why
jimjim1969 · M
Putin speaks
GoingDownSouth · M
Douche
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
True.