@MommyLucy I’d be surprised if my “question” has an answer. Indeed I’m not sure what my question is; let’s try again. Assuming that wealth creation is the same as consumption, ignores that the individual can be satisfied thus wealthy/satisfied without being visibly or outwardly wealthy. The culture of satisfaction and “enoughness” SHOULD outweigh consumption and competition as satisfaction. If I have my needs met what do I want? What more do I need? Is that more clear? Personal Satisfaction compared to meeting other’s expectations of accomplishment.
Wealth Creation vs Redistribution Socialism emphasizes public ownership and collective management of resources, aiming to reduce inequality and provide universal access to healthcare, education, and housing (Economics Help)
. While this can improve social cohesion and quality of life, it does not necessarily increase total wealth. In fact, some socialist policies, such as high taxation and extensive welfare programs, can reduce incentives for innovation and productivity, potentially slowing economic growth (FEE)
.
Theoretical Perspectives Marxist theory argues that capitalism eventually leads to inequality and crises, suggesting socialism could create a fairer distribution of wealth (Hoover Institution)
. However, historical examples such as the Soviet Union, Venezuela, and North Korea show that centrally planned socialist economies often experienced stagnation or decline in living standards (FEE) Foundation for Economic Education
@DogMan You are totally stuck on your false dichotomy fallacy!! Your whole answer is based on the false assumption that there are only two possibilities -- pure capitalism and pure socialism. That assumption is patently false. What works best is a mixture that includes, at the very least, gov't regulation.
We had pure capitalism for a while in coal country. Miners were paid in company scrip and could only live in company housing and only buy at the company store, and somehow the miners never got out of company debt. We had pure capitalism when Standard Oil used regional monopolies to drive every other oil company out of business. Why would a monopoly need to innovate? They don't. Without government regulation, pure capitalism leads to monopolies, and monopolies have no reason to innovate nor to be efficient.
You think Standard Oil is ancient history? Read how Amazon took a $200 million loss to crush diapers.com https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/emails-detail-amazons-plan-to-crush-a-startup-rival-with-price-cuts/ Amazon also destroyed soap.com and zappos.com, and there are probably other examples out there. Why compete with competition when you can destroy competition??
As I've shown, pure capitalism isn't efficient either. What's efficient is a MIXTURE!!!
I'm saying that Capitalism is the best creator of wealth
And there you go, talking about PURE CAPITALISM🤣😂 I maintain that a MIXTURE is the best creator of wealth.
If I ran my company as a socialist, I would not be in business anymore.
And there you go, talking about PURE SOCIALISM🤣😂 Actually, your business, whatever it is, complies with lots of regulations; financial, environmental, health & safety, etc. Many conservatives call government regulations creeping socialism. I say most of them make our society more efficient.
I do not feel we need MORE Socialism.
Shall I show you US health care costs & life expectancy vs the rest of the developed world?? Socialized medicine is more efficient.
See the difference between the US and the rest of the developed world? Note the graph goes 1970-2018.
Nope, the difference isn't hiding in infant mortality stats. Life expectancy in the US is really that much worse, and healthcare here really costs that much more.
Capitalism is imperialistic it needs bottom feeders. It creates nations that sucked the wealth of lesser nations by explotating them. Allowimg for the richer nations to set foundations that support there economies so they can progress at the expense of poorer nations. Capitalism as a Global system is as brutal as Socialism just with different formats of suffering. Can all people of the world eat red meat at this moment? No there's not enough red meat in the world for everyone to buy red meat at this moment. This is curb by supply and demand and purchasing power. Most of this economical systems you have in countries depend on form of exploitation that moves wealth from South to the North. Let say nations developed in the world this increases overall the demand on things and supply might be hinder.
@ElwoodBlues @DogMan says Show me where I said Democrats are less productive. You say democrats are pushing for socialism, and you say socialism doesn't produce wealth. Connecting those dots, you are clearly saying democrats are less productive.
Is that what I'm saying? Thank s for telling me. 🤣 I didn't know.
Denmark and its high level of trust Together with the introduction of the civil servant reforms, harsh punishments for corruption were also introduced, [b]successfully stamping out corruption[/b] long before the rest of the world. Today, Denmark continues to be among the least corrupt countries at global level which - in addition - partly explains why Danes have such a high degree of trust, not only in each other, but in the justice system and other government institutions.
“The rule of law means that citizens trust that their tax money is invested well, that they can do business together, and that the institutions serve in the interests of the people in a predictable and trustworthy way,”
In America, it is the opposite. We have a high level of corruption and fraud, and no one cares.
California is writing laws to protect fraud from being exposed. See the "Nick Shirley Bill"
@DogMan "corruption" could be argued to be a very subjective term. It has a moral underpinning to it, making it ripe to...ironically, corruption of its use, the language used to justify it, the means used to ameliorate it etc
Of course it is... the corrupt politicians get campaign contributions and/or other kickbacks from the fraudsters. One hand washes the other.
In Cali, the fraudsters are cloaked By laws that are NEVER revoked. 'Cuz in Cali, pols druther Have a hand wash the other, But the taxpayers always get soaked.
Why do Democrats pretend the Nordic states are socialist? Without capitalism the nordic states would not survive.
The Nordic countries operate under a form of capitalism known as the Nordic model, combining free-market economies with extensive welfare systems. Overview of the Nordic Model The Nordic states—Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden—feature a mixed-market capitalist system where private ownership and profit-driven competition are central, but the government plays a significant role in providing social services and regulating certain sectors
. This system is often described as welfare capitalism, balancing free-market activity with strong public welfare programs such as universal healthcare, free higher education, and generous unemployment benefits
@DogMan The Nordic model of Social Democracy is in my opinion the best system as it is still capitalism but those who need help are looked after which is why I describe myself as centre left! 😇😇😇 Centre left is better than left wing just like centre right is better than right wing! 😘😘😘 I missed you! 💖💖💖 Because of my autism I'm not smart enough to debate but your comment about the Nordic model I actually liked because I like that system best and I believe left of centre (centre left not left wing) is best place to be! 😁😁😁 On a bonus I like Mitt Romney because he is centre right and a moderate Conservative not right wing unlike Trump who is insanely far right extreme Conservative! 😘😘😘
@jehova I'm on the left but I kind of agree with Dogman on this about capitalism! 😇😇😇 Think of Socialism like sugar and a country like teeth! 😂😂😂 A little bit of sugar (socialism) is good but too much rots our teeth (country) which is why I desgribe myself as proudly centre left! 😇😇😇 I want a strong welfare state for the disabled and I want Universal tax paid Healthcare and free tax paid education but I still want that in a free market capitalist society which is why I am centre left! 😘😘😘 I'm still WAY more left wing than my special friend Dogman though but I am centre left not pure left wing! 😘😘😘
@fanuc2013 does Joe smo graduating highschool unable to find above minimum wage labor have the same opportunity as Johnny red hat who has a father to show him into a job at the local factory. The factory offers healthcare and benefits Jo sho is delivering for Uber Eats has to pay his own healthcare. Is opportunity the same for the college student unable to afford a car? Estranged from his single mother but on a full scholarship to a prestigious community college? No one has the same opportunities. Each individual must seize any potential and capitalize on their own opportunities. I got shot during my highschool years went back to class the next day. Never said a word to Anyone about it for some years. Universal provisions aka “socialism” allows everyone the same access to service enabling them to be successful. Not everything is equal. Socioeconomic status, even school district, but especially access to service affords equal opportunity.
This is why Nordic style socialism will not work in the U.S.
Democrats fight FOR fraud, not against it. The latest can be seen in the Nick Shirley Bill
US Government Losing Half a Trillion Dollars a Year to Fraud Published
Apr 16, 2026 at 07:48 AM EDT
updated
Federal watchdogs warned Congress this week that fraud across government programs is draining hundreds of billions of dollars every year, much of it tied to benefits and grants administered by states.
Concern is rising because pandemic-era spending exposed weaknesses that remain largely unresolved as federal dollars continue to flow through decentralized systems.
@DogMan furthermore “improper payments” aka payment made in error to the wrong person or for an incorrect amount is not fraud it’s lack of quality control. Improper payments account for $2.8 to $3 trillion or about 35% of all payments made since FY 2003. Therefore according to the US GAO more than a third of such expenditures could be corrected simply through better administration oversight and monitoring
@DogMan we agree that America is known for fraud and that we need trustworthy individuals to ensure “trustworthy administration”. A best practice is alarms that alert when a regulation is not being adhered too. If American administrations is wrought with corruption we must build in safeguards while rewarding whistleblowers. Saying it cannot be done doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted and honed toward success.
Of course socialism creates wealth!! Look at the Nordic countries -- government provides healthcare, education, and basic living expenses for those who can't pay. And they create plenty of wealth!!
Or is capitalism they only way to really create wealth for everyone equally?
You don't really believe capitalism creates wealth for everyone equally, do you?
The productivity of American workers continues to grow, but pay stopped reflecting that growth.
@DogMan You seem to be trying to get me to argue in favor of pure socialism. Sorry to disappoint, I won't be doing that. I'm arguing in favor of a mixture such as we see in many European countries, with socialized medicine and socialized education.
People create wealth with their labour. The political system of choice merely influences how efficiently people will be able to continue producing wealth in the future. As capitalism has not stood up well to sustained economic shocks over the past 18 years and many working people are currently struggling to stay afloat, this suggests that a change of direction is required.
Capitalism is the only way to create wealth. You can do it individually, or you can do it as a group.
Within the western democracy that touts individual freedom, it is a dog eat dog situation. The dog that don't gets to eat falls by the wayside to live on the street.
Within the socialist state, the state ensures no one within the state gets left behind to live on the street. The socialist state itself competes with western democracies and individual oligarchs in a dog eat dog global free marketplace.
I now know why the socialist programs work in Nordic countries. The people there are more trustworthy than other places. Fraud and corruption doesn't happen there like it does other places.
In 2024, North Korea’s nominal GDP was about $34.9billion, while South Korea’s was roughly $1.88trillion — making South Korea’s economy roughly 50 times larger
Examples of Non-Capitalist or Socialist-Led Countries
Cuba – Operates under a socialist system with state ownership of major industries, free healthcare and education for all, and a focus on collective welfare over private profit Ash & Pri.
North Korea – A pure communist state with complete state ownership of all means of production, central planning, and no private economy voicesofcapitalism.com.
China – While it has a mixed economy, it is heavily state-controlled, with the government directing major sectors like energy, banking, and heavy industry. Private enterprise exists but is tightly regulated voicesofcapitalism.com.
Vietnam – Socialist-oriented with state control over strategic industries, though it has allowed some market reforms.
Mongolia – Historically socialist, with state ownership of key industries and a planned economy Wiley Online Library.
Albania – A former socialist state with a centrally planned economy, though it has since liberalized somewhat Wiley Online Library.
@Gibbon Exactly!!! And that is why every single Utopian experiment ever tried has failed. Remove incentives, and no one will work!!! No one will harvest the crops. No one will chop wood...and that is in an Agrarian Utopia, where it is actually POSSIBLE for people to work hard to feed themselves.
@DogMan excuses are plentiful among those unwilling to make concessions and compromise, while those that choose to be ill at ease could cooperate, for the benefit of us all; it is the naysaying & desire to prolong ones feelings of supremacy that has plunged humanity into our forever wars and endless strife. As a default. Only through careful analysis, self knowing, and honesty can we cut to the core of the issue(s) that divide us & finally put aside our childish pride. Are we ready to be a mature society?, Members of a species? the human race! in fellowship to protect our home? Planet earth. Or must we fight like childish primates like the ancestor from which weve evolved? Time to be adults!
@DogMan idk if its that constant but yes id like that to be less. More common ground and mutual benefit needs to be fostered. Maybe those in power are too resentful? I think the next generation is ready.
People create wealth through productivity. Socialism vs Capitalism is more about distribution and organization. Both systems can be organized for good wealth creation. Both systems can be poorly organized and lead to mass poverty.
There are a lot of complex variables that are a lot to go into on an internet thread. And a lot of questions regarding wealth vs morality. And then there is short term gains vs long term stability.
Another crucial element of the Nordic Model's anti-corruption efforts is a strong focus on accountability. This is achieved through a combination of independent oversight bodies, effective whistleblower protection, and a robust legal framework. For instance, Sweden established the Parliamentary Ombudsman, an independent institution responsible for investigating complaints against public authorities. Denmark has a specialized whistleblower protection agency, ensuring that individuals who report corruption are shielded from retaliation. Such mechanisms play a pivotal role in deterring corruption and ensuring that wrongdoings are promptly addressed.
This is the OPPOSITE of the Democrat model. Democrats want to STOP people from investigating fraud and corruption.
Welfare is not about creating wealth but looking after those who need help! 😇😇😇 My son is disabled, non verbal, cannot use the toilet by himself, has meltdowns and needs round the clock care so common sense he couldn't work so I think we need a certain level of Socialism for healthcare, welfare, education, guaranteed sick pay and things like that but I don't think Socialism should go beyone helping those in need! 😘😘😘 We need capitalism and I think centre left is how far the left should go and I am proudly centre left so of course I still support capitalism after all I LOVE Disney! 😂💙😂💙😂💙😂💙😂💙😂💙😂💙
@AthrillatheHunt I don't really fully understand about immigration as I don't watch the news (because I'm like a big kid I only watch kids shows) so I didn't mean welfare for immigrants and I agree that should be temporary instead I meant welfare for the disabled or elderly! 😇😇😇
@MommyLucy MommyLucy · 36-40, F Welfare is not about creating wealth but looking after those who need help! 😇😇😇 My son is disabled, non verbal, cannot use the toilet by himself, has meltdowns and needs round the clock care
You are absolutely right again Lucy. Your son deserves the best care we can give. Just think how much more could be done for him if we did not have millions of capable people living off the system that was made for people like him.
The fact that China/CCP has a SEZ (social economic "capitalist" zone), while socialists/communists claim to be opposed to capitalism, pretty much answers that question...
without which, they'd have ended up just like soviet russia years ago...
@sunsporter1649 Despite what your cartoonist told you, Mamdani closed a $12 billion NYC budget deficit without cutting services and without raising taxes on the middle class. Why does that disappoint you???
Too bad tRump couldn't achieve something like that!!
UPDATE for sunstroke: NYC is a highly productive place. Florida is full of non-productive retirees like yourself. Look at the numbers!
GDP per Capita (NYC County/Manhattan): Approximately $604,619 in 2023. GDP Per Capita (Florida 2024): $73,879
As of early 2026, the New York City metropolitan area has a gross domestic product (GDP) exceeding $2.5 trillion Total Florida State GDP (2025): Reached $1.4 trillion
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure
