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We Dare Not Say about the Ukraine War

It has to be said: The US instigated a proxy war with Russia.

Russia is wrong for invading Ukraine. But the US set the stage for this hell that the people of Ukraine are going through.

Even Biden himself is on video saying that NATO expansion will not end well.

This shit has been ongoing for a long time, folks.

It's not new, or out of the gold and blue.

It's the usual Red White and Blue.

It all comes down to Uncle Sam.

And I hate to say it, because believe it or not, I do love this country a lot.

I don't like the government/corporate duopoly.

It makes me sad to see this great country slowly decline. Through it's own barbaric tendancies.
goliathtree · 56-60, M Best Comment
goliathtree · 56-60, M
@GeistInTheMachine It is always about the cash.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@goliathtree At the end of the day, cash and power. Yeah.
@goliathtree Butler was a true American hero and his book should be required reading.

Elessar · 26-30, M
Hmm no. This is plain and simple Russian imperialism at play.

Also NATO isn't some magical blob that spreads at the will of Washington, countries bordering Russia are increasingly interested in joining it precisely because of Russia's behavior. Nobody wants to be the next Ukraine.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 I'm aware they're both imperialist and I'm not denying it, what I'm saying is that I don't see an American responsibility in this. This is basically Russia's Vietnam. NATO isn't something that "expands" autonomously and infects countries; if Russia wasn't a sh*tty neighbor and instead built its sphere of influence with trade and mutual interests / protection, instead of literally terror, most probably neither Ukraine nor Finland or Sweden would be considering joining it. Heck, with the territory they occupy and the resources they have Russia could very well be the 1st economy in this world (or competing with the U.S. for that place), posing itself as a credible functional alternative to western capitalism/imperialism, instead they have an economy that was below that of my country [b]pre-sanctions[/b], ruled with the iron fist by an authoritarian ultra-conservative kleptoratic oligarchy that is evidently unable to leave the Soviet past behind, unable to take rational decisions (probably because anyone who wasn't a yes-man has been defenestrated in the course of the past two decades), unable to get out of their state of self-imposed misery. It's as if Germany, Japan or Italy post-WW2 decided to double down on Nazism/Fascism.

Saying that Crimeans felt mostly Russian is also an oversimplification of reality: the region is at best divided in [b]half[/b], which doesn't justify in any way whatsoever what Putin did in 2014. In the 1991 independence referendum, also Crimea expressed itself in favor for independence ([u][/u]), almost immediately followed by a second referendum that granted the region a special autonomy status within the republic of Ukraine (for saying, many who voted "No" to the would've probably been pessimistic about the second referendum and in hindsight could've voted differently).

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but Minsk II was signed [b]after [/b]the Russians had already invaded Crimea in 2014. Which is the point that Ukraine has allegedly broken, of this deal they were forced to sign under the threat of military annihilation by what was at the time considered the world's second military power? I'm more aligned with your government on this point (and only this point), than with the ambiguities coming out of Germany or France, personally.
Northwest · M
@Burnley123 The last thing President Obama wanted, was an unstable Ukraine. The Minsk II protocol, was not adhered to by the Russians, and separatists, specifically to return control over the border to the Ukraine government, prompting the Ukraine not to move on granting self-control over parts of the Donbas region.

I don’t see that as provocation.

Back in the Cold War days, it was all about fear of communism, and the latter was as clear as the Borg: convert, and if you’re a weaker nation, then I am going to make you. NATO was, and still is, about self defense. NATO is not engaging in wars to expand territory.

Putin is.

At some point, one must also examine the concept of “majority” and self-determination. How do you define that? A few hundreds of lunatics is Washington state, want to “separate”. Do we bend over?
BlueVeins · 22-25
I feel like if Poland invaded Belarus, you probably wouldn't blame Russia for allying with & supplying the latter. Ultimately, countries such as the Baltics and Poland have a moral and legal right to enter into defense pacts with other countries; they faced a credible threat to their existence, and NATO was able to guarantee them some degree of safety.

What this line of argument misses, with respect, is the fact that what's happening in Ukraine right now is about power. Russia thinks that it can maximize its influence by using force against former members of its empire which decide they don't want to serve the Kremlin anymore. Knowing that, the only real choices are to either let Russia have de facto control over all those countries or to limit its ability to use force. Many eastern European states chose the latter, and the majority have fared a hell of a lot better than the ones which chose the former. Even for Ukraine, what's happening there is tragic, but at least there's a clear path to serious improvement, unlike with countries that are more cucked to Russian interests like Belarus and Kazakhstan.
You, and Putin, seem to be forgetting a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum.[/i]

Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.

[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.

In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.

Sorry, dude, but Russia promised [i]specifically[/i] NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised [i]specifically[/i] to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. is doing now.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@revenant who pays you for posting this, Putin directly?
revenant · F
@samueltyler2 yeah of course i am a russian bot quoting scriptures as you said before 🙄
revenant · F
@samueltyler2 i have seen you telling somebody " you do not know revenant do you" as though you and I knew each other and somehow you knew me bla bla bla bla..laughable 🙄
BohemianBoo · 18-21, M
America urging Ukraine to move away from Russia and towards the EU is not instigating a war.

The most anyone can reasonably say is that America is taking advantage of this war by using Ukraine to weaken Russia. But I say this is good. Ukrainians are getting the help they need, Putin's Russia is being destroyed, and an example is being set for other dictators.
It's kinda like a person donating to charity so they could brag about how generous they are. Maybe their intention is selfish, but who cares? They still gave to charity.
BohemianBoo · 18-21, M
@GeistInTheMachine [quote] I say it's rich because the USA has a history of propping up and installing fascist dictatorships.[/quote]

That doesn't mean America is fascist.

[quote]Your democracy is weak because you broke it the same way you broke that of other countries. You undermined your own democracy.[/quote]

And there are many ways that happened. One of the ways was through bothsidesing, which is what you're doing.

[quote]America gutted and took advantage and exploited Russia in the 90's. America could have been their friends.[/quote]

Russia was a dictatorship during the 90's too.

Intervention isn't inherently good or bad, it depends on the specific case. Funding Israel is bad. Funding Ukraine is good.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@GeistInTheMachine [quote]An American (If you are American) calling another country fascist is pretty damn rich.[/quote]

This is really brain-damaged rhetoric; Bohemian over here isn't responsible for the way his government is, and if you've seen him around here, he's very clearly against all the actual fascistic shit the US government does and supports.

[quote]North American matters pertain to North America, Asian to Asia, Europe to Europe, Africa to Africa, Eastern Europe to Eastern Europe, etc.

The world would be better if everyone minded their own business as much as reasonably possible and engaged in mutually beneficial trade.[/quote]

Things like conquest and genocide are really everybody's business. The people most hurt in these situations are overwhelmingly innocent civilians who have very little control over their situation. If someone has the means to stop a kid from getting hit with an artillery shell on their way to fetch water, then they should take that opportunity. I could see some argument that it'd be better on average if there were some magical geopolitics forcefield between continents or whatever, but unless you can actually create that as a physical thing, the most malevolent governments aren't gonna respect that anyway so trying to do it unilaterally would give an even worse outcome.

[quote]Russia is close to the line of fascist, if not over it. Sure. But that was forseeable and not inevitable. America gutted and took advantage and exploited Russia in the 90's. America could have been their friends. They fucked them up and pushed them away. Same as they did to Latin America and other regions.[/quote]

Okay, I agree that the US probably shoulda given aid to Russia unconditionally and that that would've given them better results, but this was not the "same as they did in Latin America." The US has staged coup after coup and invasion after invasion all throughout central and south America. We've funded powerful rebel groups, our guns exports have funded fucking cartels that have plundered and ravaged the bulk of Mexico. Sorry if I'm being pedantic, but these are just two categorically different things.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@BlueVeins You need to chill out. I never said he was responsible for his gov. Read all I wrote. I was saying I though it was ironic that he was throwing the word fascist around, and I explained why I thought that from my perspective.

Also, again I never said the US was fascist. You both need to stop putting words in my mouth.

He is saying I am calling the US fascist, which I am not.

And you are saying I am holding him responsible for his government's actions, which is laughable.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F

NATO is a purely defensive organisation. Why would the russian terrorist state be threatened by a purely defensive organisation... unless it thwarted their plans to continue invading and stealing.

Whether or not a country wants to apply for NATO membership is nothing to do with russia.

putin said he wanted less NATO... he's now getting even more NATO.

putin said he was worried about having NATO on his borders.

He's about to have his borders with NATO hugely increased.

putin is a neurotic kleptocratic who will not stop until he is stopped.

This year, he will be stopped,
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@newjaninev2 Sounds like this was straight from the Washington swamp! I can smell it. Stinky! 🤢
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@GeistInTheMachine and yet you present no arguments against it...
Ukraine was at least ten years away from joining NATO. We didn’t make Putin invade.
@GeistInTheMachine If the US baited Russia, then Saddam Hussein baited our invasion of Iraq. For the record, I was one of the "focus group" members (as President Howdy Doody called us) who protested the war before it started.

Putin has had Russian soldiers fighting without insignia ("little green men") in eastern Ukraine since at least 2014. He's mad that the Ukrainian people tossed out his corrupt puppet Poroshenko and elected a pro-Western president. Our mistake was not responding when Russia took over Crimea. The puppet certainly wasn't going to do anything.

This is 100% on Putin and 0% on the U.S. I agree that we've engaged in way too much foreign interference, but Ukraine isn't an example of that.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@LeopoldBloom If I were you I wouldn't bring up Saddam to bolster your case. In Killing Saddam the US created a vaccum which let to ISIS.

Then they armed the so called " moderate rebels" in Syria , and you saw ISIS running around with 'Merican guns and supplies.

Russia actually helped clean that mess up in an ugly way, sadly.

And also you have the Taliban now strutting around with American weapons in Afgjanistan.

What a joke. It's so sad. America just keeps shitting the bed, shitting on the world and creating chaos.

American people need to hit the breaks and wake the hell up.
@GeistInTheMachine I'm bringing up Saddam as an example of how conservatives defended the invasion - "he made us do it." Don't be surprised if a radical Ukrainian group appears if Russia manages to overthrow the legitimate Ukrainian government.

Many of us do want to end the insanity. There just aren't enough of us.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
I would be interested in seeing where the statement about Biden saying that about NATO. Please educate me.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@samueltyler2 I will try to find the video where I saw that again. Tried to find it, but I couldn't remember which video it was.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@GeistInTheMachine so, in fact, it doesn't exist! As a matter of fact, can you ignore the fact that expansion of NATO is occurring in [b][u]response to fears of further Russian aggression[/u][/b].
jimjim1969 · M
All Putin has to do is stop killing civilians. Stop destroying their villages and towns. Stop invading Ukraine. Russian bots
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@jimjim1969 Here we see the typical manufactured, programed, black and white, Binary-American framing, with the self serving corporate news narrative.

But yeah, I don't like the killing civilians thing. I don't like the killing in general.
jimjim1969 · M
@GeistInTheMachine How's Saint Petersburg weather? Russian bots, or should I say trolls
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@jimjim1969 I'm Dominican-American. Moreover, most Russians probably wouldn't even like me if they're pro-putin right wing Ultra-nationalists.

I'm a left-leaning populist who wants social democracy.
It’s the same story.
Same story tellers.
Over n over n over!

you’d think ppl would think twice about getting in bed with the CIA, to have Color revolutions, oust democratically elected leaders and install globalist sock puppet regimes.

Spreading democracy.. we must be the good guys.

revenant · F
When I said that 3 weeks ago to a bunch of lefties I almost got strangled * not in SW *
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@revenant They never learn.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@SevIsPamprinYouAlways I don't like the GOP, the Dems, or Nazis. But ok.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

You need more tin foil, dude
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@HoraceGreenley You need to read and listen more, dude.
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
You need to watch out for the rubber truck
NATO expanded and Russia didn't.
The USA blew up a pipeline connecting Europe and Russia. They're in charge of who can relate with whom!
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@Roundandroundwego 'our' side? Who is that?
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@Roundandroundwego what on earth are you saying? who invaded whom?
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
'It has to be said: The US instigated a proxy war with Russia.'

It has to be said that is a crock of shit.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@GeistInTheMachine You said the US instigated a proxy war. That is patent nonsense.

Even if you buy into the idea that NATO expansionism was provocative , it's a huge leap to then suggest it was an existential threat to Russia. The only people using that line were the Russians after they invaded. Furthermore , there was no realistic prospect of Ukraine becoming a NATO member , either in the short or medium term , or for that matter if ever.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@RodionRomanovitch i'm not the one making the leap that it was an existential threat. It looks to me that Moscow interpreted it that way. They may also see benefits to having control of Ukraine. It's not mutually exclusive.

But you yourself are admitting that the us expanding NATO was provactive.

The USA created a precarious situation here ripe for picking. They created a flashpoint.

The United States magnifies and exploits these geopolitical hot spots for the percieved national gain of the elite

That's precicely my point!
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@GeistInTheMachine Please tell us who you define as the elite that is benefiting from the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Please tell us all who is the who that said the US instigated a proxy war with Russia. While you are at it, why would anyone want that?
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@GeistInTheMachine 'But you yourself are admitting that the us expanding NATO was provactive.'
No I never , I think you may have misread that.

Are you suggesting that the US engineered a conflict to benefit its arms manufacturers ?
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@RodionRomanovitch I wouldn't be surprised.

Look what they did to Russia when the USSR fell.

Putin even tried to play nice with them at first.
SusanInFlorida · 26-30, F
200,000 dead russian soldiers. Putin on the way out. We win !!!!
SusanInFlorida · 26-30, F
@samueltyler2 to your ears
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@SusanInFlorida hopefully, some power greater than I!
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@SusanInFlorida Who is "we?"

And what was won?
specman · 46-50, M
I don’t think it will still be important when China or North Korea attacks the US.
Northwest · M
IKR? These motherfuckers, put a gun to Putin’s head, and made him do it.
jimjim1969 · M
ask Putin and the oligarchs
Daviszabecki · 56-60, M
Go away troll
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
Putin's NATO Warning Was 'Game Changer' for Finland–President
This message was deleted.
Emosaur · 22-25, M
@GeistInTheMachine Thanks for demonstrating perfectly what a piece of shit you are, I'm sure daddy Putin loves that about you.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@Emosaur So you're an angry emo edgelord? That's your schtick? Doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness. Kind of out of style, too.

Take a better perspective. It will be better for you in the long run. That dumb internet ideology is toxic. I know because I was sort of like that, too.
Emosaur · 22-25, M
@GeistInTheMachine I'd rather be that than sucking Putin's cock.

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