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We Dare Not Say about the Ukraine War

It has to be said: The US instigated a proxy war with Russia.

Russia is wrong for invading Ukraine. But the US set the stage for this hell that the people of Ukraine are going through.

Even Biden himself is on video saying that NATO expansion will not end well.

This shit has been ongoing for a long time, folks.

It's not new, or out of the gold and blue.

It's the usual Red White and Blue.

It all comes down to Uncle Sam.

And I hate to say it, because believe it or not, I do love this country a lot.

I don't like the government/corporate duopoly.

It makes me sad to see this great country slowly decline. Through it's own barbaric tendancies.

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ElwoodBlues · M

You, and Putin, seem to be forgetting a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum.[/i]

Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.

[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.

In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.
[/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44

Sorry, dude, but Russia promised [i]specifically[/i] NOT to invade Ukraine, and the U.S. promised [i]specifically[/i] to ASSIST Ukraine if the treaty were ever violated. And that's what the U.S. is doing now.

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues It is true but most people do not know about it and I wonder WHY this is not talked about more often. What is the reason for hiding that fact ?

What is behind all those betrayals ?

samueltyler2 · 80-89, M

@revenant Putin wants to rule the areas that were under Stalin's control. He is a brutal dictator, and, like many like him, find a way to enrich their lives and those of their supporters/friends regardless of what the affect on others. For a mellenia, wars have been fought over land grabbing!

ElwoodBlues · M

@revenant Good question. I googled
<news org name> budapest memorandum ukraine
and got a few hits

[u]new york times[/u]

[quote]Ukraine Gave Up Nuclear Weapons 30 Years Ago. Today ...
The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › 2022/02/05 › science › ukrai...
Feb 5, 2022 — In late 1994, the pledges got fleshed out. The accord, known as the Budapest Memorandum, signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United ...[/quote]

[quote]Russia Is Using Old Ukrainian Missiles Against Ukraine ...
The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › World › Europe
Dec 12, 2022 — As part of the 1990s agreement, known as the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine agreed to relinquish its nuclear arsenal — the world's ...[/quote]

[quote]What Does It Mean to Provide 'Security Guarantees' to Ukraine?
The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › World › Europe
Jan 10, 2023 — A postwar Ukraine will want to ensure that Russia does not attack again. ... weapons under an agreement called the Budapest Memorandum.[/quote]

[quote]President Zelensky criticizes the allied response to Russia's ...
The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › World › Europe
Feb 19, 2022 — The Ukrainian leader thanked the West but said sanctions should be applied ... called the “Budapest Memorandum,” pretended it did not exist.[/quote]

[u]fox news [/u]

[quote]Zelenskyy representative blames US, other Budapest ...
Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com › world › zelenskyy-represent...
Mar 27, 2022 — A representative of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy described signatories to the Budapest Memorandum as a reason Ukraine is at war, ...[/quote]

[quote]Ukraine's Zelenskyy pushes for new security agreements ...
Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com › world › ukraine-security-agr...
May 21, 2022 — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Russia will not be involved in ... guarantees following its violation of the Budapest memorandum.[/quote]

[quote]US has not lived up to Budapest Memorandum - Fox News
Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com › video 2:18
... Budapest Memorandum: Former GOP lawmaker. Former Rep. Allen West says 'it is very sickening' to witness the Russia-Ukraine war on 'Life, ...
Fox News · Apr 23, 2022[/quote]

[sep][sep]

There are more and and by more news orgs too. So they aren't being silent about it, but it's not front & center either.

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@ElwoodBlues I don' take fox news seriously on anything.

revenant · F

@samueltyler2 why is the US meddling again ?

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues yeah it is not front news and I am amazed that this golden opportunity to accuse Russia is not being taken.

Would there be more to the story....?

ElwoodBlues · M

@revenant [quote] this golden opportunity to accuse Russia is not being taken. [/quote] Russia is being accused of bombing hospitals, schools, and housing blocks. Russia is being accused of war crimes against civilians and cities. In the face of that, what weight does a 29 year old piece of paper carry?

When people claim "Putin is justified becuz NATO" is the only time I bring up the treaty. Putin was [i]never[/i] justified for this act of aggression.

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues NATO should not have moved.

Have people forgotten Cuba ?

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@revenant Exactly.

I'm not a conservative, but we see eye to eye on this!

Cuban Missle Crisis is not taken seriously. People need to understand how Kennedy handled that situation. That could have been extremely bad.

It was. Things could have ended there.

samueltyler2 · 80-89, M

@revenant please explain what Cuba has to do with Ukraine?

samueltyler2 · 80-89, M

@GeistInTheMachine what exactly is your point?

ElwoodBlues · M

@revenant @GeistInTheMachine [quote]NATO should not have moved.[/quote]
Umm, NATO is a collection of mutual protection treaties. Countries ask to join NATO if they are worried about being invaded. NATO members are expected to have a certain level of transparency about their elections and economy. This promotes international trade and cooperation between NATO members. NATO doesn't "move." Countries request admission and only get in if they meet certain conditions and win a unanimous vote among existing members.

Putin wanted Russia to join NATO back in 2000. [quote] “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”[/quote]

Here's a map of NATO members and when they joined. The major eastward expansion actually happened in 2004.

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues EU. Not good. Everybody wants to join the EU...that is a threat to Russia. EU follows the US anyway.

ElwoodBlues · M

@revenant Au contraire, EU was very good for Russia. EU had extensive trade with Russia, bought billions worth of gas & oil every year. EU was very much a good neighbor to Russia. All the goodness ended when Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin needs to be behave like a good neighbor if he wants to be treated like a good neighbor.

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues EU has a superiority complex. I saw how some leaders patronised Putin. They have been making fun of him for years now.

ElwoodBlues · M

@revenant Is this high school?

Russia has 143 million people to look after. Does stroking Putin's ego have priority over their well being??

revenant · F

@ElwoodBlues They certainly treated him like a high schooler with their Karen behaviour instead of minding their own business and affairs.🙂

samueltyler2 · 80-89, M

@revenant meddling, needling? Where have you been, Putin attacked, invaded, is in the or crss of destroying a sovereign nation! The US is helping Ukrainian defend itself! Are you totally a Puttin puppet?

ElwoodBlues · M

@samueltyler2 Well, TBH, people probably did say snippy things about the way Russian investigative journalists keep falling out of windows and eating poison and such. Likewise opposition politicians have a habit of either dying or being thrown in prison. Maybe these kinds of comments make Putin feel bad!!

revenant · F

@samueltyler2 meddling just like in Syria, Afghanistan, Lybia, Irak, Yemen and god knows where else.
Hide your basic instinct for money and power under a mask of " doing good for humanity".

samueltyler2 · 80-89, M

@revenant who pays you for posting this, Putin directly?

revenant · F

@samueltyler2 yeah of course i am a russian bot quoting scriptures as you said before 🙄

revenant · F

@samueltyler2 i have seen you telling somebody " you do not know revenant do you" as though you and I knew each other and somehow you knew me bla bla bla bla..laughable 🙄