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We Dare Not Say about the Ukraine War

It has to be said: The US instigated a proxy war with Russia.

Russia is wrong for invading Ukraine. But the US set the stage for this hell that the people of Ukraine are going through.

Even Biden himself is on video saying that NATO expansion will not end well.

This shit has been ongoing for a long time, folks.

It's not new, or out of the gold and blue.

It's the usual Red White and Blue.

It all comes down to Uncle Sam.

And I hate to say it, because believe it or not, I do love this country a lot.

I don't like the government/corporate duopoly.

It makes me sad to see this great country slowly decline. Through it's own barbaric tendancies.
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Elessar · 26-30, M
Hmm no. This is plain and simple Russian imperialism at play.

Also NATO isn't some magical blob that spreads at the will of Washington, countries bordering Russia are increasingly interested in joining it precisely because of Russia's behavior. Nobody wants to be the next Ukraine.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar I think these points are not mutually exclusive. NATO (the US) is an imperialist power and so is Russia. Ukraine is caught in the crossfire.
GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M
@Burnley123 Yes sir!
Northwest · M
@Burnley123 Hmmm. Did NATO twist the Ukrainian arm to join? It’ fear of falling back under an authoritarian regime, that’s pushing countries like Sweden, to join.

Cold War reasoning does not apply to 2023.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest I think it does.

Don't get me wrong: I am very much of the belief that Putin is an imperialist and that Russia's invasion is completely unjustifiable.

However, the Ukrainians (surely with US knowledge, if not outright backing) undermined the Minsk 2 agreement and did act provocatively. Under the principle of national self-determination, Crimea has always had a big pro Russian majority. Whether the Donbas regions did at the outbreak of war is arguable.

As an organisation, NATO is a military alliance concerned with expanding its own power. It was formed during the Cold War and it's function remains unchanged It is led by America and it's most loyal secondary player is the UK.

Now, if I was Swedish or Finish, would I be in favour of joining NATO? In normal circumstances no but Putin's invasion is a game changer. I don't think Russia has designs in or the means to invade Scandana I but it's close enough to be a legitimate concern. Likewise German increases in military spending seem reasonable.

My position on this is closer to that of Germany and France than my own govt.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 'However, the Ukrainians (surely with US knowledge, if not outright backing) undermined the Minsk 2 agreement and did act provocatively. '

I've heard you say this a few times now and I'm still none the wiser. Can you elaborate for me ?
Elessar · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 I'm aware they're both imperialist and I'm not denying it, what I'm saying is that I don't see an American responsibility in this. This is basically Russia's Vietnam. NATO isn't something that "expands" autonomously and infects countries; if Russia wasn't a sh*tty neighbor and instead built its sphere of influence with trade and mutual interests / protection, instead of literally terror, most probably neither Ukraine nor Finland or Sweden would be considering joining it. Heck, with the territory they occupy and the resources they have Russia could very well be the 1st economy in this world (or competing with the U.S. for that place), posing itself as a credible functional alternative to western capitalism/imperialism, instead they have an economy that was below that of my country [b]pre-sanctions[/b], ruled with the iron fist by an authoritarian ultra-conservative kleptoratic oligarchy that is evidently unable to leave the Soviet past behind, unable to take rational decisions (probably because anyone who wasn't a yes-man has been defenestrated in the course of the past two decades), unable to get out of their state of self-imposed misery. It's as if Germany, Japan or Italy post-WW2 decided to double down on Nazism/Fascism.

Saying that Crimeans felt mostly Russian is also an oversimplification of reality: the region is at best divided in [b]half[/b], which doesn't justify in any way whatsoever what Putin did in 2014. In the 1991 independence referendum, also Crimea expressed itself in favor for independence ([u]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum[/u]), almost immediately followed by a second referendum that granted the region a special autonomy status within the republic of Ukraine (for saying, many who voted "No" to the would've probably been pessimistic about the second referendum and in hindsight could've voted differently).

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but Minsk II was signed [b]after [/b]the Russians had already invaded Crimea in 2014. Which is the point that Ukraine has allegedly broken, of this deal they were forced to sign under the threat of military annihilation by what was at the time considered the world's second military power? I'm more aligned with your government on this point (and only this point), than with the ambiguities coming out of Germany or France, personally.
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Northwest · M
@Burnley123 The last thing President Obama wanted, was an unstable Ukraine. The Minsk II protocol, was not adhered to by the Russians, and separatists, specifically to return control over the border to the Ukraine government, prompting the Ukraine not to move on granting self-control over parts of the Donbas region.

I don’t see that as provocation.

Back in the Cold War days, it was all about fear of communism, and the latter was as clear as the Borg: convert, and if you’re a weaker nation, then I am going to make you. NATO was, and still is, about self defense. NATO is not engaging in wars to expand territory.

Putin is.

At some point, one must also examine the concept of “majority” and self-determination. How do you define that? A few hundreds of lunatics is Washington state, want to “separate”. Do we bend over?