As much as I want to support our needs at home, I believe it is important to make a stand for people who want freedom. We have plenty of needs here in the US, but freedom is our foundation.
How many US Voters, Taxpayers, and Consumers are willing to be Poor, Destitute, Impoverished, and willing to watch the last US Dollar go up in smoke for the sake of the City of Kopiansk to be on the Border of Russia or Ukraine, or for Biden's version of Vietnam?!
@Broache73 That's a silly question. Of course I care about public policy that affects me. Maybe you're in a position of privilege where you can sit on your balcony and watch events in perfect detachment, but most of us don't live that way.
@LeopoldBloom In any case, public policy is about much more than whether it affects me as an individual. It’s about the state of society and the wider world. I care about that and hope others do too.
@Adeptlinguist Of course, that's important to me as well. For example, my wife and I are way past the age where we have to worry about an unplanned pregnancy, but I still support legal access to abortion for anyone who wants one even if it doesn't affect me directly.
Why does the US have to get involved in every conflict in the world? We were an isolationist country until Woodrow Wilson dragged us into WWI, and we've spilled more than our share of blood and treasure since then. As a result, freedom [i]was[/i] our foundation. It's time to stop the endless wars and get America back to being America.
I don't like any country invading any other. All local nations have the right to decide their own government and sovereignty.
Despite the fact that Ukraine has sometimes been swallowed up by larger empires, for most of its history it has been independent.
I think it's not wise to let mighty nations bully, control or invade smaller ones. It sows long term feuds, hatred and violence far into the future.
Australia has helped Ukraine in the form of Bushrangers - huge, mine-broof troop carriers - 75 to start with, and I think more than that now. We've also sent army leaders to help train their civilians into soldiers. And I think we've sent humanitarian aid. We've done this despite the effect of fuel prices and inflation, and despite our difficulties in funding our public and social necessities.
So far, I haven't met a single Aussie who objected to sending help - nor heard of any via the radio or tv.
If we lack active compassion for others, what are we?
Time to end this conflict. World leaders need to Tell Zelensky to approach Russia for an immediate cease fire on both sides and both countries commence immediate peace talks. As far as I’m concerned, the U. .S. is part of and has been a problem in and for Ukraine and we as a nation need to attend to our own issues and stop throwing money into a bottomless Ukrainian pit. That is my opinion.
It is not the job of the US government to protect other countries or their citizens, their job is to work for the American people. Now, if private citizens want to create a charity or volunteer to help out in Ukraine, then I also believe that the US government has no right to stop them from doing so.
@Broache73 Don't worry, with Biden in charge it will work out for both of us.
My prediction is that Putin is trying to hold out until the 2024 election, in the hope that Trump or another Republican will win and end the aid to Ukraine. If Biden or another Democrat wins, Putin will shortly thereafter "declare victory" and withdraw. The spin will be that he never intended to actually capture Donbas, he just wanted to stop the "genocide" of Russian speakers and "de-Nazify the area. So he will say he accomplished that. It's all BS so he can say whatever he wants.
Putin has rewritten school textbooks to validate a violent Russian conquest of Eastern Europe. Supporting Ukraine is the cost of protecting North American business interests abroad.
@SW-User [quote]Supporting Ukraine is the cost of protecting North American business interests abroad.[/quote] Straightforward economics - one would have thought, but it seems a bit too complicated for many of [expletive deleted] on here. Sadly
[quote]Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs “Toria” Nuland was the “mastermind” behind the Feb. 22, 2014 “regime change” in Ukraine, plotting the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Viktor Yanukovych while convincing the ever-gullible US mainstream media that the coup wasn’t really a coup but a victory for “democracy.”
Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, who pushed for the Ukraine coup and helped pick the post-coup leaders.[/quote]
@SumKindaMunster You're still implying that US actions provoked Russia and Putin had no choice but to invade. Even assuming for the sake of argument that we are 100% responsible for the change of government in 2014, Putin had other options if his goal was the protection of Russian speakers in Donbas and not, in fact, something else.
I would love to see the US redirect much of our overseas involvement to other areas that would benefit more people back here. We are only required to spend 2% of our GDP on our military under the NATO requirement, and we're spending 3.5%, not the highest in the world in terms of GDP, but somewhere around 4th or 5th. However, for the time being, we still are a world empire. Our expenditure in Ukraine, while not trivial, would be a drop in the bucket if spent back here on infrastructure or social welfare programs. I also see value in stopping Putin's expansionism even if he's not the next Hitler. We have interests in Europe and they are affected by Russian expansionism.
I opposed the Iraq War. I don't know what you personally felt about it at the time, but I do remember that opposition was mostly liberal while support was mostly conservative. And yes, I'm aware that Hillary Clinton voted in favor of the invasion. Donald Trump supported it at the time even though he now denies that.
It was all conservatives who opposed the JCPOA and couldn't stop repeating how Obama gave Ahmedinejad "pallets of cash" (referring to our returning money that had been frozen after the revolution and had always belonged to Iran. Again, for all I know you personally supported the JCPOA but opposition to it was again, almost entirely conservative.
It's fascinating how conservatives are now rebranding themselves as peace-loving tree huggers when until now they've supported every imperialist war the US has been involved in.
@LeopoldBloom [quote]You're still implying that US actions provoked Russia and Putin had no choice but to invade[/quote]
No, not implying it at all. Russia is their own country and is responsible for their own actions. Again, pointing out the propaganda, lies and hypocrisy being fed to the American people about this conflict.
[quote]Putin had other options if his goal was the protection of Russian speakers in Donbas and not, in fact, something else.[/quote] Interesting you feel so sure about that. Isn't that just speculation on your part?
[quote]It's fascinating how conservatives are now rebranding themselves as peace-loving tree huggers when until now they've supported every imperialist war the US has been involved in. [/quote]
No idea what you are talking about. It seems to me conservatives oppose the action in Ukraine because they want to see all our military resources to go to opposing China. Same mentality, different enemy.
[quote]It was all conservatives who opposed the JCPOA and couldn't stop repeating how Obama gave Ahmedinejad "pallets of cash" (referring to our returning money that had been frozen after the revolution and had always belonged to Iran[/quote]
Point of clarity, it was literally pallets of cash regardless of where people say the money came from and whether or not Iran deserved it back. It wasn't really "their" money, it was the money of the previous regime who were violently overthrown by the theocracy that runs it now.
@SumKindaMunster You think we won't be able to oppose China because we're sending too much to Ukraine? What about the possibility that China sees how Russia couldn't steamroll Ukraine and that affected their calculus of what they could expect in Taiwan? It's not like these actions occur in a vacuum.
Conservatives support Russia in part because they admire Putin, a strongman and a guy who doesn't mess around with deh gayz. If you don't think there's an element based on that, you're very naive.
One aspect of the JCPOA was for the current Iranian regime to have access to funds frozen from the no longer existent prior regime in return for a higher level of oversight for their nuclear program. Whether you thought that was a good idea or not is a matter of opinion, but Trump shredding the JCPOA amounted to a guy buying a car, then crashing it into a tree because he though the sales agreement was unfair.
@Iwillwait Co-founded, and the point is that the US [b]is[/b] a NATO country. It's a pet peeve of mine when someone explains obvious things to me. With that, I bid you goodnight because it's 1:14 here. 😅
@Iwillwait it’s my post. @SW-User is welcome to comment. And I agree with her. The Ukraine is being devastated. We Americans never have to worry about it. And we take it for granted. I hope we stand with them until Russia backs off. No I do not want to go to war
And the US has traditionally stepped in with bad things are going on. We did Ukraine a disservice. Some years ago during the Obama administration, a deal was made to remove from Ukraine their nuclear weapons they wanted them gone and we made a deal will take those and appropriately dispose of them and then return? If Russia invade you we will support you. But then in 2014 Russia invaded and took the Crimean peninsula. We did not live up to our Bargain. Had they not sign this treaty, they would’ve also had nuclear weapons still. Which may have been a deterrent, to be invited. Or, it could’ve been a nuke fest. No way to know all that said we have to support them because we said we would, and we have to keep our promises
125 billion in aid and people here say it's small change .I'm in no way against sending aid but it pisses me off when.posters act like the people of the US don't care about Ukraine.
Helping Ukraine isn't about preserving its independence or freedom, as the aim is to prevent Russia from pursuing or maintaining Russian interests. The U.S has been looking to exploit Ukraine for some time, and it is not in American interests to allow Russia to gain or achieve anything for Russia.
That is, unless, it corresponds to their own agenda.
btw, there's always someone's freedom being compromised or taken away. If it's in your country, why not care about that more? Maybe you could actually change the outcome for that person or people. You don't need the media to tell you who or what to care about, or what causes you must support...go and find your own.
It's not just that. Russia is our global adversary, and Putin's poorly-planned foray into Ukraine has weakened Russia. If the Ukrainians are willing to defend themselves, it's in our long-term interest to support them.
1) I hate to see us supporting a war that has no clear "endgame". Putin is unlikely to give up. Ukraine is unlikely to give up. Western support leads to perpetual conflict. 2) Putin is a dictator. The rest of Europe has "managed" his antics for a few decades because most of the crap he pulls has been within his own borders. The Russian oil was enough for them to do no more than "strong words". 3) I strongly support Ukraine's effort to maintain their sovereignty. 4) The USA has been involved with this kind of stuff for 100+ years. I find it a little suspicious that suddenly now people want to draw the line, the same people that were unwilling to draw a line at Iraq or Afghanistan - and those were actual US troops, not just sending them our old weapons. 5) The US military spending is the elephant in the room, and it is a HUGE elephant. I would expect those crying about a few dollars to Ukraine would also be against a military budget that is multiple times greater than the next biggest spender.
@SumKindaMunster I'm saying the "peace loving hippies" were against fighting in general. Many of the folks today seem to be against the Ukraine war aid because Biden is president and it is something they can use against him. Had Trump been president and offered the same aid, many of the same critics would now be asking for more aid. The reverse is true, too. If Trump were president now and offering aid, many of those that currently favor helping Ukraine would probably be against helping. The "peace loving hippies" of the 1960s-1970s were against the war whether it was Johnson or Nixon in the WH.
@trollslayer [quote]Many of the folks today seem to be against the Ukraine war aid because Biden is president and it is something they can use against him[/quote]
Speaking for myself, its more like yet another pointless, stupid, endless war that we never supported or signed up for. Biden is incidental to this, he is there to support it and cheerlead the effort.
I think its utter speculation to suppose what Trump would have done on this effort.
But yes, I do agree a good portion of the population would oppose it simply on principle since it was Trump's doing.
[quote]The "peace loving hippies" of the 1960s-1970s were against the war whether it was Johnson or Nixon in the WH[/quote]
The U.S. was willing to spend trillions to take apart the USSR in 1980 dollars. Even tens of billions of dollars is nothing compared to the Reagan/Bush 41 years.
I feel very torn about this, actually. On the one hand, if the world allows Russia to gobble up Ukraine, it sets a terrible precedent. We do not want bigger, more powerful countries to go around annexing their neighbours.
On the other hand, this has become a proxy war between the West and Russia, in which "we" supply the weapons and the Ukrainians do the dying. This is an ugly situation, but I don't know a better alternative since we do not want an all-out world war.
Is it in the US interest to allow Russia to dominate Europe?
I'm not American but I think that is a legimate question. Hypothetically if Russia was to recreate the Russian Empire does that benefit the United States or does it weaken it? It seems to me that the US economy would suffer as the market for US goods and services would shrink (I am assuming that the Russian Empire would seek to limit imports from the "West" in general). It would be foolish to assume that the Russian empire would wish to trade with the West.
I believe the US is involved with Ukraine because the corrupt US GOVERNMENT is addicted to the kickback of American tax dollars into their pockets and that their leader is not above blackmail ( exposing their crimes and keeping all the money ) to maintain the flow of American cash .
@TexChik probably a ton of nefarious intent inside our corrupt government and the others as well. Cannot look past that. But I also think that Ukraine is a lot like Taiwan and South Korea. For all of our flaws, which we have many, I wouldn't live anywhere else. If we stood aside and did not have the US Navy, the South China Sea belongs to the PRC and all the commerce that affects the world economy is severely compromised. I'd MUCH rather spend our money here, but the world isn't allowing us to.
Until recently, I would have said that we should go all out and stop the war... but the truth is that America and her Allies should be ashamed of how recent conflicts ended.
We abandoned Afghanistan in what was a worse situation than we found it... for what??? We got Bin Laden, great job, boys, let's go home.
What about the freedom of those girls and women???
What about Ukraine's right to live peacefully in their own country, with their own elected government and President??? The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour... feelings would have no doubt been different, had the Japanese decided to invade Hawaii and mount an attack into claiming the mainland US from there - just like Russia did with Ukraine and Germany tried to do with the whole of Europe.
They have been attacked in part because of their trying to get closer to the west and ourselves, and in part because of Russian imperialism/irredentism. It only makes sense that a country that has been attacked for growing closer to NATO should be supported by NATO, and that we should support the defense of any country aligned with ours against an invasion by an imperialistic, terroristic, dictatorship. That is my opinion on supporting Ukraine as an American.
I understand the reason that the money was given. But there [b]are[/b] so many things still needed in the U.S. And hard-won freedoms here [b]are[/b] currently being eroded. It is a bit hypocritical to send money elsewhere when so many here are homeless. But there’s a precedent for this. The U.S. sent troops to fight the Nazis—racially segregated troops.
It’s hard not to be bitter, and I do wish people of the Ukraine their regained freedom, but the United States have wrongs they’ve still not redressed right here, having to do with the very freedom we claim to value.
Americans can't really understand why peace was valuable. Talking or negotiating with such people won't make sense. You do the war and nobody can stop you. Whatever.
How can we help others if we can't help ourselves ? We're spread to thin and taxes are out of control Have you seen our national debt ???????????????????
When Bidens Special Envoy to the Ukraine was asked in front of a Senate Select Committee:
"Does the Ukraine have BioLabs"
Her reply should have been:
"If America comes across any BioLabs, anywhere in the World, we'll bomb them out of existence"
she didn't, her reply was:
"We are working closely with the Ukrainian Government to keep BioLab research out of the hands of Russia"
[b][i]Puts a whole new spin on why Russia is in Ukraine doesn't it[/i][/b]
AND
Ukraine is deemed as one of the most corrupt regimes on the Planet and we're supporting THEM, so what does it say about US, or more precisely, the 'Sleepy' Administration
It's not our fight, the Russian speaking Ukranians in the Crimea wants to go back to Russia, Zelenskyy refused to let them vote on it, then he threatened NATO membership. Freedom? Zelensky imprisoned his political rivals then nationalized all the press, I would not call it that.
