Do you support Israel?

@Miram [quote]All Amazighs are pro-freedom no matter the territory.[/quote]
I learned about Amazighs for you. I wish for freedom for all 🧡

@Miram I'm asking because the Tuaregs in northern Mali have been trying to form their own country since Mali became independent in 1960.

@LeopoldBloom It is not specific to them. Lot of Amazighs elsewhere wanted that too and tried, through peaceful means.

@Harmonium1923 [quote]I do not think all those who criticize Israel are anti-Semitic. But I do question the motives of those who criticize only Israel without applying the same standards to their own countries and other countries around the world. That, to me, is either anti-Semitic, or close to it[/quote]
👍

[quote]The creation of Israel was a response to [b]thousands[/b] of years of being viewed as outcasts and enemies.[/quote]
I can see how this would be the view of many but unfortunately, I think differently of the creation of Israel as simply a response to being outcasts. I am more than willing to have a respectful conversation about how these views can come about and perhaps we can produce meaningful input and learn from one another as to why we believe what we believe.

[quote]If you've read this far, thank you. I know it is a challenging and emotional issue. I've shared my views. I will read and listen to the view of others who express them respectfully. But I won't be drawn into conversations that lack that respect. If this post disappears, that will be why. Peace, shalom, and salaam.[/quote]
Let's hope this does not occur. I have read your entire response and will be able to respond at a later time and appreciate a genuine, productive conversation wherever I can find it.

@AthrillatheHunt I'm sorry, did I stutter?

@NickiHijab there’s no need to be sorry.

@Babylon I admire her passion and conviction .

@TheOneyouwerewarnedabout you know this is a self defeating argument 😂
But I enjoyed the laugh

@BlueVeins I can see where you are coming from. Are you aware that Palestine already had Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims living there together in harmony? And that the incoming Zionists are from Europe and some are historically not ethnic Jews but ethnic Europeans who became Jews (but somehow claim heritage over the lands)?
These incoming Zionists (which undoubtedly carry SOME ethnic Jews) establishing a new "first world" nation are expelling black ethnic Jews already living there. Why? When people are lead to believe it's about a homeland for the Jews that they lost from so long ago, something just screams red flags when the actions being taken are by Europeans and are outcasting the Jews there. Can it really be about heritage?
At least for me, it seems situated in something other than sympathy but just a new area to be colonized and made a beautiful residence for specific people.

@Babylon I don't consider cultural heritage or ethnicity to be a valid reason to steal land anyway. It wouldn't be fair for me and my German descent to gather up my fellow German Americans and start a new German government that steals land from the current one and expels Germans from their homes. In the same way, the fact that a lot of these Zionists are white people isn't really relevant; it's equally wrong either way. I'm not really in favor of giving peoples their land back generations later, so much as I'm [i]against[/i] stealing land now, which is sorta inconsistant but it's the best way of addressing it that I can see. I mean imagine being born and raised somewhere your whole life and then being kicked out and because your ancestors did big crimes.

As for why Israel was established, I tend to think you'll find the answer resides moreso in ideas about nationalism and misconceptions about race in the early 1900s as well as religious views on the subject. Keep in mind, this was back in the age of colonialism, when the British Empire had already subjugated enormous areas of Africa and the Middle East. Racial tensions were running high worldwide including antisemitism, and the idea of the nation-state suggested that all peoples should have their own homeland. When it comes to Judaism, race, religion, and culture are often conflated with one another, so it's really not surprising that the British Empire wanted to give "the Jews" a country for themselves.

Having said all that, contemporary support for Israel is almost certainly based aroud three things --
>Evangelical Christians
>countering Iranian influence
>keeping the Red Sea open to trade

@BlueVeins that's not the reason "Britain" wanted to give Palestine to the Jews. Read about the Balfour Declaration and Mandate of Palestine. White Zionist parliament members of European heritage wanted to establish their own new land. If it was about being a Jew, you're aware that these Zionist are kicking out black Jews from Israel, right? It's a contradiction to believe it is about giving the a Jews a loving homeland to unlovingly kick out the Jews it should be giving the loving homeland to. Lord Rothschild of the parliament, a Zionist power, wanted to take Palestine. The Zionist movement has nothing to do with Jews. It is a colonial movement powered by Britain and America. It is STILL in effect today under that facade of a Jewish homeland.

Read Jabotinsky's writing called "The Iron Wall."
http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
He was a colonizer and wanted Palestine. He wrote about how he wanted to take the land and knew the Palestinians would resist. He knows the process so well that he mentions and compares it to other genocides and steaoling for land like the Native Americans and the Aztecs if I remember correctly.

Reading the founders of the movements' writings contradicts a peaceful wish for a state and integration and its implementation of an apartheid state and expulsion of Jews screams red flags everywhere. We can't just believe their words when it contradicts facts and reality right before our eyes. Until Jews stop getting deported forcefully, until the apartheid and attacks on Palestine ends, until the lies and deceptiom cease, this problem will just continue until Israel successfully destroys Palestine and the whole world stood by picking daisies. It's easy to just expose the history and actions taking place and it isn't inclusive and righteous to believe the facade put up to mask colonial invasion in 2021

@Babylon [quote]allow me to take a moment to thank you for addressing my questions. I respect that and want you to feel free to ask me anything[/quote]

You're welcome.
There's nothing I care to ask you.

@Budwick alright, well feel free to tag me here or make a post and tag me if there's something you'd like for me to respond to.

And I hope to hear from you which group of people is on top of others to make the decisions in the questions I asked you

@Babylon [quote]which group of people is on top of others [/quote]

No one is on top of another.
Well, except maybe Palestinian terrorists on top of children or hospital patients as they hide to protect themselves at the peril of others - like savages.

@Babylon let me save you some time :
The Arab world was incredibly advanced until the arrival of Islam.

@AthrillatheHunt architecture engineering poetry science medicine .
It all ceased immediately .
Although I would consider the burg Dubai to be a modern day engineering marvel .

@AthrillatheHunt[quote] let me save you some time :
The Arab world was incredibly advanced until the arrival of Islam.

architecture engineering poetry science medicine .
It all ceased immediately .
Although I would consider the burg Dubai to be a modern day engineering marvel .

[/quote]

with all due respect, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Until the arrival of Islam, the Arab pagans were ignorant, illiterate, barbaric people with such a corrupt system. After Islam, [b]that[/b] was when you find the greatest contributions that galvanized science and a culture of science and appreciation for study across the globe. The Muslims had actually built an empire of knowledge while the Europeans were living in the dark ages. In fact, you can't appreciate the word science without knowing the Muslims.

To give a quick run down of the people at the time before Islam there and their culture, they were known for battling with poetry and just being a barren land with a house full of idols where people from far and wide came to worship. Their main trade was linguistics. That was it. A people of the tongue.

Let me give a quick example how corrupt they were. You know about donkeys, right? We don't consider donkeys more important than humans. Muslims don't consider donkeys more important than humans. When a donkey gives birth, farmers would never kill baby donkeys, but the Arab pagans before Islam would [b]bury baby girls alive back then.[/b]
Can you imagine when you look at a baby donkey, they would see it has value and they hold and carry a baby girl and considered her worthless? That it weighs nothing to bury them alive? Allah actually addresses and criticizes them in His message to mankind.

https://quran.com/16/58-59
[quote][58]Whenever one of them is given the good news of a baby girl, his face grows gloomy, as he suppresses his rage.
[59]He hides himself from the people because of the bad news he has received. Should he keep her in disgrace, or bury her ˹alive˺ in the ground? Evil indeed is their judgment!
[/quote]
https://quran.com/81/8-9
[quote][8] And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked
[9]For what sin she was killed
[/quote]

They were not incredibly advanced before Islam. They were barbarians back then. This is just [b]one[/b] tiny example. Do you know how many corruptions Islam purified the Arab pagans of? History demonstrates how women had no rights back then. Read into how many rights were bestowed upon women, from marriage. To business, to equality, to property rights, to freedom of speech, to worth, value, and esteem. Read about how women were treated in the Ottoman empire, how they were allowed to do things outlandish to Europeans until the 19th century, like participating in government and being business owners and so much more I cannot list off the top of my head. Islam freed women of significant oppression and dehumanization. Slavery was a problem back then, too. (Not the degenerate, barbaric, torturous slavery against blacks done by a group of corrupt white men who slaughtered the Natives in America, though). Islam came to end slavery. Some Muslim scholars don't even define it as slavery under Islamic practice because the slave has dignity and honor. They define them as servants. In Islam, you cannot abuse prisoners of war, like in Abu Ghraib. You're not allowed to harm a single soul. In fact, you feed them, clothe them, give them a place to sleep, and you gotta respect them. They have to listen to you but you cannot hurt them, lie against them, or manipulate them. The kind of predatory slavery that had people and their children endlessly enslaved (somehow, the children are slaves too because it was meant to be really evil and abysmal) was eradicated from the land, over a millennia ago. Islam freed the people. Islam changed Mecca and Medina from places of rotten behaviors to a place free of slavery and religious oppression.

What came next? Islam makes it incumbent upon Muslims to study and learn. Muslims began studying and learning. Read the history of the sciences and historic achievements, how Muslims would experiment and investigate the properties of this wonderful cosmos we see before us. When you look and learn about how modern science came from the Muslims and learn that these people changed because of Islam will blow your mind. From illiterate, drunk, brothel running, slave owning, baby girl burying people emerged one of the most impressive societies. Read about Ibn Haytham, a mathematician, astronomer, and physicist. He is known as the Father of Optics (or father of Modern optics). Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, known to later Latin scientists as Algorithmi is who modern mathematicians base their entire life works on. You like universities today? Know that he is known as the Father of Algebra for the current, western scientific age. He was also an astronomer too who was the leader of the library of the House of Wisdom. Flight? Look up the first man to fly. In American history, (even check it online right now), you'll see the people displayed are Wilbur and Orville Wright with their glider that was used to successfully fly a bit down a hill. You search and see even earlier, Da Vinci was formulating and postulating flight and how someone might be able to fly with gliders, perhaps. You know who came before Da Vinci and beat the Wright brothers by over a millennia? Abbas ibn Firnas. But they don't teach you about his genius and success, do they? There are SO many more. Algebra coming from Kitab Al-Jabr is like how alchemy comes Jabir ibn Hayyan, the father of Alchemy/Chemistry. These people were Muslims. They were religious and grew to learn and teach to help the world because Muslims believe that it is a responsibility to learn and that Allah tells them to give from what is given to them, including knowledge and wisdom. Speaking of that, it reminds me of the first university-like, academic institute ever. Today, if you even search up the first university, the history of it (I think it is university of Bologna) you'll find that it was a system adopted to be like al-Qarawiyyin. al-Qarawiyyin, today recognized rightfully as the first university ever, was founded by a Muslim [b]woman[/b] and is still running to this day, making it the oldest university known. Women in Islam are some of the most powerful leaders and scholarly figures. [Yeah, I am taking this moment to still highlight that at one point before Islam, the Arabs were literal barbarians and we oughta thank Islam for that 😪]
When you ask what contributions Islam has made, I almost can't stop seeing it after I dove into history to find out what really happened back then. I see the contributions of Muslims everywhere. Medicine, science, math, you name it. There is so much more and soooo many more people after Islam came to them that made incredible growth in the name of science and religion. I wonder how people don't recognize or even know these things sometimes. Maybe Western history erases it (because it is a known strategy to try and outshine other civilizations and bring an air of superiority), but you and I shouldn't trust a history built on cover ups and lies.

Islam advanced the world. It changed the Arabs and made them from an empty desert with nothing to be proud of to one of the greatest people. And it wasn't Arabs that did this. Islam is a way of life from Allah and you'll see that Arabs didn't use this to be "on top of the world." Islam's touch had spread far east and far west. At the time of this era of enlightnment and knowledge, this was around the Viking era, where Europeans were running around in forrests, painting their faces blue. But look at culture and society today. Shows glorifying barbarians demonize the Muslims (and falsely generalize them as Arabs).

I encourage you to read the history of the sciences. If you think Dubai or Qatar are impressive, they're nothing compared to how the Muslims of the past pushed the whole [b]world[/b] forwards. A lot of systems we see today were adopted from the academia of Muslims. You'd also be surprised how scrutinous Muslims took preservation of information and honesty in history. Again, I can share academic presentations or documents of history. Just let me know if thisnis enough. I'm overwhelmed trying to remember everything Muslims have contributed to the world with throughout history.

Today, Muslims have fallen apart. After learning about the teachings in Islam, it has a lot of solutions to the problems of the world. When the British Empire successfully systematically destroyed the Ottoman Empire (of course, after the Ottoman Empire had lost its purity and became corrupt, disunited, and destroyable), the baton was passed onto the Europeans who learned from the Muslims (evidently now, without their due credit). Today we see what happens after a great industrial bloom based on the eradication of Native Americans, the backs of innocent African slaves who were forced to do huge manual labor to help push this nation ahead of others, then with this built up resources (and some being taken from other lands to support our economy) it paves the way for scientists and engineers to be able to have the money, government grants, and tools to study and continue to build off of what Islam has brought to us through our forefathers. History is important, but what is more important is that you know the truth.

I am not perfect and can make mistakes so go back, verify and validate the information I gave. Correct me too, because I gotta learn as well. Hopefully though, since you sincerely asked, I sincerely present to you that history demonstrates that Islam has definitely changed the Arabs to be a better people and that this world thanks and appreciates the Muslim contribution and we push the baton forwards.

@bijouxbroussard [quote]both Israel and Palestine deserve to exist[/quote]
What justifies Israel's existence? I'm just curious because Israel didn't exist before they attacked Palestine in the Nakba like the Americans who slaughtered the Native Americans. Or the British who slaughtered the Mau Mau.

Ideally, my question can be read as:
Why are people against the killings and stealing of homes of living Palestinians today but support Israel which exists because they just did it in the Nakba?
Bezalel Smotrich is pissed that there are even Palestinians to still steal land from today and wishes they were all exterminated or executed.

@Babylon Perhaps for the same reason (since you used the analogy) that even those who acknowledge that the U.S. was wrong for its genocide of our indigenous people don’t necessarily want our country destroyed.

@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays this is great. This reference explicitly mentions how the population has remained there and stayed without significant population transfer.

As clearly reported, you actually explained about the Palestinian people perfectly. Their religion shifted from following prophet Moses at his time, to following Jesus at his time, to then Muhammad at his time. Some people did not accept Jesus' teachings and remained Jews. At the time of Muhammad, some also did not accept his teachings and remained Jewish or Christian. (Peace and blessings upon all them)

The people of Palestine are still there. It doesn't change them from being an ethnic group and having an ethnicity, just like how being an Ethnic Jew or Amazigh is not impacted by being Arab. right? Now, supposing the Palestinians are a melting pot and even don't have an ethnicity, what changes?

@Babylon [i]Hm![/i] 🤔

@Islamreligion there was never a Palestine until Lord Balfour called it that.

@LeopoldBloom I don't support Hamas' choices to focus on fighting back colonization when Palestinians need foreign aid for food and water. If there could be a peaceful option, I always prefer it.

Now, I am glad we at least agree that the Jacob has got to go, and hopefully, the other similar cases of known Palestinian families kicked straight out of their homes

@Babylon Gaza is not "colonization" since there are no Jews living there. But at least we agree that Hamas' violent resistance to Israel is pointless and self-destructive.

@LeopoldBloom I hope that the unworthy leaders of the world are replaced with just leaders and this matter can be resolved peacefully

@SW-User just let anyone in Joe?
Unchecked unvetted.. lolz

@SW-User I like that you do not even pretend that Israel isn't an apartheid state. You have no idea how hard it is for believers in "human rights" to condemn or stand against Israel

@SW-User I personally respect a country who says only Jews here, or christians, or Muslims, why not if that is what they prefer? Christian countries had christian laws for a thousand years. Not all countries have to be "melting pots"

@Babylon Thank you, you are so sweet!

@Carazaa aw. thanks. You are a lovely soul 😊

@Babylon Thanks ❤️🤗❤️🤗❤️

@Carazaa at least you care! That's far more than many heartless people who don't wanna stand up against genocide and thievery of land. Why? Because their very nations were based on bloody hands

@SW-User can you imagine that there are people who literally are silent or wanna pretend Palestine doesn't exist or that they deserve to die for white colonialists in 2021? Where are the HuMAn riGHtS ACtiviSTs?

@Babylon it makes me cry, it's so insane and wrong

@Babylon
This is something I have learned myself on the “side” but I think that Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement was the most important sacrifice for the Jews when they actively sacrificed in the Holy Temple.

@Pfuzylogic thank you for educating me

@Babylon
You are welcome!
I am not Jewish but it does tie into the Christian religion very strongly.

@Tastyfrzz America wouldn’t be a nation if we didn’t get help from France against our colonial rulers and had to fend for ourselves .

@Babylon we give them over 5 billion a year . Israel is a very expensive “friend “.
If you think we get nothing in return you are naive .

@AthrillatheHunt this is one of the topics I am not too knowledgeable on 😅
I only deal with country policies and history tbh

@wildbill83 and before you pretend I am biased with my sources, here are Israeli sources for the video provided above:


Haaretz, Israeli News.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-settler-masked-person-filmed-shooting-at-palestinians-as-israeli-soldiers-watch-1.10006087

Times of Israel, Israeli News.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-probing-palestinians-death-video-of-masked-soldier-shooting-at-village/amp/

whatever...

all the corrupt muslims and anti semitics will get their due in the end...

Revelation 6:16

@wildbill83 you know, I would like anyone corrupt to get their due justice. However, truth will forever defeat lies and justice is blind after death so watch yourself

Surah Hujurat, Ayah 6

@zork0000 I don't think that is accurate. One existed there for thousands of years. One used to exist there thousands of years before that, otherwise there would have never been a Nakba or forced establishment of Israel by British Mandate because they already would have been there

The invaders of Palestine write about colonizing the land, too

@markansas please provide me a good link to the 6 day war. I have actually never heard of it

@Babylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War[image deleted]https://www.britannica.com/event/Six-Day-War[image deleted]https://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/history/pages/the%20six-day%20war%20-%20june%201967.aspx[image deleted]https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/parallel/8.html
I REMEMBERED THIS AS A CHILD. good luck this should have never been[image deleted]

@SW-User 😭 ouchies, this [b]has[/b] to be the truth

You only care about Palestine... you don’t like it when someone supports Israel.

Telling me about care is ridiculous when it’s coming from a person who is one sided in their so called caring.

Anyone with a clouded view can’t see two sides therefore it’s easy to blame one side, and it’s a tired agenda.

You don’t question why someone supports the things they do unless you’re trying to force your own beliefs on them, it’s a common thing in Islam. @Babylon

@Camelia [quote] You only care about Palestine... you don’t like it when someone supports Israel. [/quote]
Not true. It is not fair to me to say this. I care about the Israelis and Jews of Israel. I support some things about Israel and denounce others. I support some things about Palestine and denounce others. Please, ask me about these things before assuming this about me, please. My dislike for supporting Israel comes from how Israel is carrying out its occupation and the rights they are violating in the process. The more I ask, the more I find people are silently in support of these things and they do not care about Palestinians.

[quote] You don’t question why someone supports the things they do unless you’re trying to force your own beliefs on them, it’s a common thing in Islam [/quote]
It is quite the opposite in Islam. Islam teaches to tell the truth even if it is against oneself.

I love Palestine and I care. But don't take it to be so one sided. My problem is the same issue you talk about. My entire post is about how people who care for Israel do not seem to care about Palestine 😕

I don't have a problem with the concept of Israel. I have a problem with its reality. I am against oppression, invasion, occupation, apartheid, and injustice. Be it Zionism, Saudi oppression on Yemen, Chinese oppression on Uyghurs, Congo's oppression of the innocent, etc., you name it. I want peace and I mean it and I will stand up for it unapologetically.

Suppose I am crazy and wrong. Do you notice or care about people who are biased and one sided for Israel? I never see anyone calling out pro-Israel people who are pleased with the violation of Palestinians. In fact, as I do this, I am called names. What do you think of one-sidedness in favor of Israel?