Do you support Israel?

@BlueVeins Gaza is the area under blockade. The settlements are in the West Bank.

@BlueVeins [quote]The only civilians I really don't feel bad for are the idiots who've moved into Israeli settlements[/quote]
Even the ones who did it about 70 years ago? During the Nakba? Or are they allowed to stay because they forced the Palestinians out too

@Babylon I don't know. I tend to think they should leave if they, themselves moved into the settlements. Those who were born there can stay if they'll accept equal status with the Palestinians.

@BlueVeins [quote]if they'll accept equal status with the Palestinians[/quote]
Do they deserve equal status because their parents killed the Palestinians and gave birth to them there? Cuz personally, I think that the people who are still alive today who shot out and slaughtered the Palestinians should be told to leave and that whoever was born there and wants to stay will do so but with the Palestinians having their land and houses back and they can leave peacefully

What do you think of this?

@Babylon I didn't understand 100% of that, but it's kinda an impossible problem. The land objectively was stolen from Palestinian people, but the basic human right the israelis violated in doing that (imo) was the right to live and reside where you were born and raised. Removing the Israeli settlers would ultimately violate that same human right.

This becomes a little stranger when you consider that I don't actually consider inheritance to have moral legitimacy, which kinda makes figuring out fairness hard on my end since this entire situation is built upon the idea of inheritance. But this is the solution I see as least unfriendly to everyone who's currently alive.

But really, what we need is to just unite Israel and the occupied territories into one country where everyone's a citizen. And from there, we'd obviously need a whole-ass civil rights movement and affirmative action, but we're so far from that point that it's almost a pipe-dream.

@BlueVeins I can see where you are coming from. Are you aware that Palestine already had Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims living there together in harmony? And that the incoming Zionists are from Europe and some are historically not ethnic Jews but ethnic Europeans who became Jews (but somehow claim heritage over the lands)?
These incoming Zionists (which undoubtedly carry SOME ethnic Jews) establishing a new "first world" nation are expelling black ethnic Jews already living there. Why? When people are lead to believe it's about a homeland for the Jews that they lost from so long ago, something just screams red flags when the actions being taken are by Europeans and are outcasting the Jews there. Can it really be about heritage?
At least for me, it seems situated in something other than sympathy but just a new area to be colonized and made a beautiful residence for specific people.

@Babylon I don't consider cultural heritage or ethnicity to be a valid reason to steal land anyway. It wouldn't be fair for me and my German descent to gather up my fellow German Americans and start a new German government that steals land from the current one and expels Germans from their homes. In the same way, the fact that a lot of these Zionists are white people isn't really relevant; it's equally wrong either way. I'm not really in favor of giving peoples their land back generations later, so much as I'm [i]against[/i] stealing land now, which is sorta inconsistant but it's the best way of addressing it that I can see. I mean imagine being born and raised somewhere your whole life and then being kicked out and because your ancestors did big crimes.

As for why Israel was established, I tend to think you'll find the answer resides moreso in ideas about nationalism and misconceptions about race in the early 1900s as well as religious views on the subject. Keep in mind, this was back in the age of colonialism, when the British Empire had already subjugated enormous areas of Africa and the Middle East. Racial tensions were running high worldwide including antisemitism, and the idea of the nation-state suggested that all peoples should have their own homeland. When it comes to Judaism, race, religion, and culture are often conflated with one another, so it's really not surprising that the British Empire wanted to give "the Jews" a country for themselves.

Having said all that, contemporary support for Israel is almost certainly based aroud three things --
>Evangelical Christians
>countering Iranian influence
>keeping the Red Sea open to trade

@BlueVeins that's not the reason "Britain" wanted to give Palestine to the Jews. Read about the Balfour Declaration and Mandate of Palestine. White Zionist parliament members of European heritage wanted to establish their own new land. If it was about being a Jew, you're aware that these Zionist are kicking out black Jews from Israel, right? It's a contradiction to believe it is about giving the a Jews a loving homeland to unlovingly kick out the Jews it should be giving the loving homeland to. Lord Rothschild of the parliament, a Zionist power, wanted to take Palestine. The Zionist movement has nothing to do with Jews. It is a colonial movement powered by Britain and America. It is STILL in effect today under that facade of a Jewish homeland.

Read Jabotinsky's writing called "The Iron Wall."
http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
He was a colonizer and wanted Palestine. He wrote about how he wanted to take the land and knew the Palestinians would resist. He knows the process so well that he mentions and compares it to other genocides and steaoling for land like the Native Americans and the Aztecs if I remember correctly.

Reading the founders of the movements' writings contradicts a peaceful wish for a state and integration and its implementation of an apartheid state and expulsion of Jews screams red flags everywhere. We can't just believe their words when it contradicts facts and reality right before our eyes. Until Jews stop getting deported forcefully, until the apartheid and attacks on Palestine ends, until the lies and deceptiom cease, this problem will just continue until Israel successfully destroys Palestine and the whole world stood by picking daisies. It's easy to just expose the history and actions taking place and it isn't inclusive and righteous to believe the facade put up to mask colonial invasion in 2021