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Sincere spiritual question, please be gentle and kind 🙏

I am sort of stuck on my path to wherever my path is headed but it's become clear to me that I am in a double bind. Essentially I've considered myself a Christian for awhile and have been attracted to the teachings of Jesus as far back as I can remember but what I am attracted to is the love and forgiveness part.

The idea of loving with all my heart, soul, mind and strength is something I would like to do without being told I should do it. The idea of loving ones neighbor as oneself is a wonderful idea and though difficult I feel as though I can sincerely say I do my best to live by this teaching and it gives me joy to do so. The idea of forgiving others is likewise wonderful to me and it is my desire to forgive everyone who has wronged me in some way and again I feel that I have genuinely done so at least according to what I am able to perceive.

However, even though I am someone who would 9/10 defend Christianity...I have to be honest with myself and say that there is a certain part to me that doesn't seem to fit with the rest and yet it would seem to be the most important part. Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and like I said I take genuine joy in this and the second to love my neighbor as myself, again I take genuine joy in attempting to authentically be that person.

The issue I have is that if the God who says he loves me more than anyone else in existence would even create such a place as hell it makes me terrified of the God that I truly desire to love with all my heart and in my heart I am not able to fulfill the commandment of loving him with all my heart, soul, mind and strength because there are humans who wouldn't do such a thing as create a hell and surely God's love must be way beyond that of human love or at least that is my line of thinking just knowing myself.

The double bind I see is this, I can't accept that hell is real even though I know for a fact that great suffering is real because I believe that God is the very source of love itself and while I would sooner lose my head than deny the God that I feel I know in my heart, I feel like eternal torture is a bit much to say the least and I can't see anything loving about it at all.

Have you dealt with this issue? What is your advice based on your own perspective?
reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
(part one) the way I see it is first there was jews. they had a religion based around a very harsh, sometime borderline psychopath god who caused the great flood because he didn't like how people lived, tortured Job just to prove a point, destroyed Soddom and Gomorah because there was sin there, and if someone had sinned and wanted to be forgiven a blood sacrifice, generally a lamb, was a way of getting back in good terms with god. (part two) then Jesus came along and said that the most important thing was to love one and other. a sort of following of people developed around him. then he died and many versions and intepretations of his message started circulating. some saying he was just a very wise men while others saying he was actually of devine origin. (part 3) then , after a few hundred years of persecuting christians, a roman emperor took an interest in this and wanted to make the roman autority the new oficial center of truth regarding Jesus so he got a bunch of intelectuals together, took all the versions of the story of Jesus that they could find and they chose which version they liked and which they didnt and they created the bible. then a purge started where they persecuted and killed anyone that believed a different version than theirs until all that was left is the bible. in the creation of the bible they kept some of the old jewish stuff and incorporated it to the writings about Jesus. some theologians then suggested that Jesus was like a giant lamb that was sacrificed in order to wipe away all the sins of mankind. then it came to be that in order to be saved one simply had to believe in Jesus and believe that he died for their sins to be saved and the message of love was a bit put aside to be replaced with blind obedience. I think the message of Jesus was meant to replace the old jewish ways and mixing the two maintained the idea of an evil, tyrant god that you must fear instead of the god of Jesus which was synonimous with love. I think none of the books written by men should be taken as absolute truth and used more as a source of inspiration. all religions and great thinkers of the past have stuff to teach us but ultimately I believe in sharpening your mind and becoming your own judge of what is true or not and if someone really wants to know god they should search within and develop their own relationship with the devine, outside of any religion of man which are all flawed.
reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
@Mooncalf to me Jesus is a bit like the personification of love and kindness but this part of him was used as a lure by a power-thirsty bunch of people. maybe one reason why the bible was so successful is because it has all these different angles to it so that vindictive, power-hungry people find their pleasure in it and kind loving people also do. when I hear christians reveling about how non-believers will go to hell THAT to me is toxic christianity. when people think that by being christian they will get more favors from god, that is also toxic to me. even praying for favors is toxic in my perspective because it means that they want god to focus a bit more on them and a bit less on others. the only loving prayer would be to wish food to all that have none, love to all that are lacking, healing to all who suffer, anything specific is selfish. even praying for a sick child is selfish because really there are many sick children so why not pray for all sick children. also, there is this toxic, fake spirituality of people saying to a suffering person " oh poor you, I will send you prayers", man that pisses me off. instead of actually doing something they "send prayers" which is often just a way of looking like a good person, getting the gratification of a good deed WITHOUT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING !!!!. don't send prayers, go and actually help people, feed people, pay medical bills for poor people, freaking vote for universal healthcare !!! it blows my mind how in the states the same people who call themselves christians are against universal healthcare because they don't want to have to pay the healthcare of less fortunate people. if you like the part of Jesus talking about love its because you already have universal love within you and for this reason you like hearing about it which means follow your heart, love people, forget religion. and I find it very suspicious anyway that a god would want to be worshiped. love, that's all.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@reflectingmonkey I'm with you man, I don't do the superficial spirituality thing nor do I desire any special treatment from God or to use him as a Santa Claus. My sincere and genuine desire for everyone else regardless of who they are or what they have done is no less than the same desires I have for myself which is unconditional love. I don't personally mind worshiping what I call God because what I call God is worthy of being worshiped (honored, loved and praised) but simultaneously what I call God doesn't demand it. I think I just have to face the facts that I can either betray myself and hope for pity from a God I've judged as a tyrant or choose the Jesus that has touched my heart which at the very least from an ego point of view amounts to choosing hell over a tyrant God.
reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
@Mooncalf I like your clarity and honesty. i much prefer someone who doubts than someone who is certain. certainty is for fools. I train my mind to accept, and try to be comfortable with, not knowing. " i slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on awakening, I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her still a virgin in the morning" (haha, Aleister Crowley) .
LadyGrace · 70-79
The Bible tells the whole story of which some have not studied, so have been mislead. God doesn't send people to hell. They go there because in their present state, their sins keep them separated from their Holy Heavenly Father, who is so holy, he cannot even look upon sin. If they will just ask Jesus, whom God the Father appointed and approved as our only Mediator between God and man, to forgive their sins, as they turn away from them to a new life in Christ, their sins can no longer condemn them. They'll be fit for heaven. God has not even asked us to do a single thing, other than trust him and believe He will rescue us from the condemnation that sin (not God) placed on us. That's not hard. Jesus never came to condemn any, but to save every soul who comes to Him, asking him to do so.

Jesus said that what we as individuals believe and the choice we make about it, means the difference in spending an eternity in heaven or in hell. So that makes that particular decision, the most important decision of our whole life. That's not judging; that's what Jesus said, and it's what He said, that counts. That makes it something we must not neglect nor ignore, because doing nothing, leaves our soul to chance and keeps one lost and separated from God. That's what He said.
ABCDEF7 · M
Very genuine question. I could have straight forwardly answered in it as per the Karma philosophy in Indian/Hindu culture. But I don't want to deviate your faith from Christianity. So I would try to rephrase the things keeping your faith in mind. Forgive me if I unintentionally & unknowingly try to modify the core Christian philosophy, or make few assumptions that were actually not true.

Please look at what Jesus said like this. Look, when you are a Christian your idol should be Jesus, you should be following whatever Jesus did on this earth during his lifetime. God has created hell and heaven for the people. If you do good things you will live in heaven and if you do bad things you will have to suffer heaven. When Jesus was alive between people, he was so kind, so loving and human. People would find fortunate to be living in his company. It's not just the people who were living with him were joyful, Jesus himself was blissed out. He took the pain of others but he was still happy, joyful and blissed out. And his enemies were in stress, anger and anxious.

Hell and heaven are no where else, you are living the hell or the heaven here and right now. It's up to you, if you want to live like you are in heaven or live your life as you are in hell. Follow the Jesus, stay blissed and live in heaven, or do the nasty thing and live in hell. God has made the system choice is yours, he is hinting hell and heaven in your current life.

If you still has confusions, I would like you to watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_VqHIvrh4
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@ABCDEF7 I think my underlining issue is that I am trying to follow the divine within me but I see a point in which what I believe God is teaching me within is not the same thing that the world is teaching, there is a conflict and that is my issue. Also at least for me it isn't just a matter of beliefs, my experience with spiritual things has been as real as anything else and that also complicates matters but you've hit the nail on the head. I feel as though I have been put in a place where I either believe what I feel in my spirit is the right thing to do or believe something else out of fear.

In regards to Hinduism I've only heard about it through brief commentaries so it is very likely I've not understood.
ABCDEF7 · M
@Mooncalf Where I live, it's summer in month of June, July and it's very hot particularly in May and June, and it's too cold in January. When I was in school, I was taught that earth is farthest to sun during the winters like in January and nearest in month of summers. It was easy for me that time to believe because it went with the world I see that time, and everything was perfect. But when I grow up, many new question arose in my mind to which this theory did not confirm to, because the reality is opposite, sun is closest to earth in January.

Similarly I was taught, when we die we either go to hell or heaven depending on what types to actions we perform while we are alive. Hell is bad and heaven is good. Again everything was perfect and aligned with the things I see in the world.

All religions, be it Hindu, Christianity, Islam or any other tells you about hell and heaven. Religions are just like junior school books. It tells you the story that confirms you at initial stages of your learning/enlightenment. As you at that time would not be able to understand the complex truth, they teach you the theories that you should believe because only it will go with the understandability you have at that time.

Religion is about believing, Spirituality is about seeking(the truth). When you are grown up, stop believing that sun is farthest in January because now you are able to understand the truth.
ABCDEF7 · M
@Mooncalf The truth is 99.99% people are in junior school, and believe in theories their religion tells.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Christianity is not so much a religion or a set of teachings or a set of beliefs. It is a personal relationship spiritual renewal process.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@OggggO Why bother. You have no reference points on which to base your opinion. I might as well be describing rainbows to a man born blind. The subtle shadings of nuance are completely lost on you.
OggggO · 36-40, M
@hippyjoe1955 Translation: like everything else you say, you can't back it up because you know it's crap.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@OggggO Translation: I am not going to discuss something with you that is completely beyond your ken.
“To be charitable, one may admit that the religious often seem unaware of how insulting their main proposition actually is. Exchange views with a believer even for a short time, and let us make the assumption that this is a mild and decent believer who does not open the bidding by telling you that your unbelief will endanger your soul and condemn you to hell. It will not be long until you are politely asked how you can possibly know right from wrong. Without holy awe, what is to prevent you form resorting to theft, murder, rape, and perjury? It will sometimes be conceded that non-believers have led ethical lives, and it will also be conceded (as it had better be) that many believers have been responsible for terrible crimes. Nonetheless, the working assumption is that we should have no moral compass if we were not somehow in thrall to an unalterable and unchallengeable celestial dictatorship. What a repulsive idea!”
― Christopher Hitchens, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@BlueSkyKing The bible doesn't support that position of the believer who would argue that point, rather the bible says that God's law is written on the heart of all men by the very nature of being created by God and so whoever says those who don't believe in God should be sort of clueless as to the character of God isn't even biblically correct.

As for my own personal views, it doesn't matter to me personally what sort of life a person has led. I believe that they are worthy of love, kindness and forgiveness based solely on the fact that they're capable of receiving such things.
@Mooncalf "You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say that we are the ones that need help?”
― Mark Twain
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@BlueSkyKing Thanks for you input.
I have. My decision was influenced by my father, a Baptist preacher who did not, to the best of my recollection, sermonize about hell. I asked him once what he thought hell was, and he said, "Separation from God, by choice."

I have come to think the Bible has been edited and amplified by those who chose to use it for control, to encourage the adherence to earthly laws and traditions.

That's what I think.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@Mamapolo2016 I definitely think the Bible has been messed with too, thank you for your answer.
Mindful · 56-60, F
@Mamapolo2016 thank you for sharing. I believe something similar
OggggO · 36-40, M
On one hand, hell does seem very extreme, eternal torture for most human transgressions seems like incredible excess. On the other, at least a few passages seem to indicate (at least to my reading) that it may instead be that it's eternal destruction, that is, the punished souls are burned away at which point they are gone forever.

That being said, it seems like there may be a very low bar to avoid that, as in Matthew 10, where simple hospitality to one who is righteous grants the rewards of righteousness, and giving someone a cup of water means you will never lose your reward. Further, Luke 12 explicitly says that those who don't know that what they are doing is wrong will be given reduced punishment, although in what way is unfortunately vague.

In the end, I'm not really sure what to tell you, except that I personally hope there is more to it than we understand, because it's certainly a tough thing to reconcile with an all loving God.
Mindful · 56-60, F
Yes. I have.
In general, I accept that just we once did not know (before now) that there are planets that have more than two moons, we also do not know all that there is to know about God (good and the not so pleasant). There is so much we are learning that is factual , I’m sure we will someday understand more spiritual.
4meAndyou · F
In my Christian church, we believe that those who are the best and closest in spirit to Jesus are allowed to live their eternal lives closest to God, and those who have really tried, but fall somewhat short of perfection live their eternal lives more distant from God and His Holy light.

We believe that the only hell is the complete ABSENCE of God...and there are those who have denied Him, and who refuse to live by His holy law, and they will spend their eternity in that sad place.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@4meAndyou That sounds sort of works based versus the salvation based Christianity that I am more familiar with where it's an all or nothing sort of deal. Thanks for answering.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
I faced a serious battle of choosing between disbelief of Jesus dying on the cross for my sins or not and in the end I thought of how much I loved Jesus and being thankful for what he had done for me already and I couldn't say in my heart that I didn't trust him after he had shown me he was good and worthy of my trust so I decided to give up trying to understand everything and just accept him as God's grace, forgiveness and salvation.
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hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@SW-User Dumbo didn't fly either.
Classified · M
I think that hell is intended for the devil and the demons. Even though it is possible that humans go there and I'm sure too many are, it's said at least four times in the bible that God wants every human saved.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@Classified Well that is how the story goes but the same story also says that if you don't accept the story as was dictated to you then you go to hell with evil incarnate itself just for not believing the story regardless of what you did or didn't do otherwise. To me it would make much more sense to just not allow such beings to come into existence in the first place.
Classified · M
@Mooncalf Which story are we talking about exactly? Just for clarification. Going to hell depends on believing in Jesus according to the bible. If that's what you meant then yes, if one doesn't believe that Jesus died and rose again and doesn't accept Him as their Saviour, then there is no salvation (excluding people who are not mentally competent to make a decision).
GrinNude · 61-69, C
I believe we create our own heaven and hell right here right now. Jesus said "the kingdom of God is at hand but you cannot see it.

I work to co-create with the God of my understanding a life that is second to none. And while on this path, I settle for gradual improvements not perfection.
Alpha and Omega, the highest and the lowest. If you believe in heaven, I don’t see why you see hell as a problem. Within that belief, it’s a matter of polarity. Read Isaiah 45:7.
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LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
That's one of the things I was never able to resolve in my mind, either. And no amount of mental gymnastics can change the fact that I'm expected to believe that this being who created me, knows me inside and out, and loves me unconditionally, is going to throw me in a lake of fire if I don't do exactly what he wants.
Mooncalf · 100+, M
@LordShadowfire Right, it's a psychological torture at bare minimum because I cannot name a loving thing about hell and I wouldn't want anyone, enemy or friend to suffer such a fate and yet I am supposed to believe that my very neighbor who I am supposed to love as myself may be tortured for eternity for not believing the story or whatever but I can't love someone as myself while simultaneously being ok with that someone is suffering.

 
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