Well, reading through the thread (I would not advocate this if you have a weak heart) at least I now have a better idea of what the MAGA folk mean by "thinking for themselves" - it means totally ignoring all the copious evidence that exists for anything counter to their own opinion, and instead to keep insisting upon the contrary.
@hippyjoe1955 Yet another totally unsubstantiated accusation. I have never mentioned anywhere anything at all about what may be, or may not be, the "arc of history'.
Then yet another insinuation that I am uneducated.
Really mate, you take the biscuit (as we say in the UK) You are not quite my cup of tea (as we also say)
I'll forgo the dubious pleasures of hearing more from you about "the Church on a Hill", and will now block you.
The good old days were inevitably the bad old days for someone else. It really means "Make America White Again". It sprung out of the fear that white men were losing their edge over women and minorities and becoming irrelevant. It's fear manifested into hate and anger.
It's a good question (and one I've asked), but I wouldn't expect to get a coherent answer that's anything more than personal opinion.
When Reagan said it, it was vague.
This time around, it seems likethere are much stronger articulated negative regressive motivations behind it, like eliminating DEI, immigration, "liberal" education, separation of Church and State, the deep state, etc, but its still vague and almost anything that's based on anger, grievance, greed or sociopathy can be included.
The biggest common denominator really seems to taken from the movie Network:
"I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore."
There's less agreement on what "it" is and even less on what to do about "it".
That item appears in ZERO founding documents. It is a fallacy because there is a Capitol Hill chapel, which is funding by tax dollars. The First Amendment was designed to prevent the establishment of a national religion.
Roe v Wade
Bad law, not based on any constitutional principles. Abortion on demand was unpopular and DemoNazis could NOT get it on any Congressional ballot (even when they controlled both houses and the White House.) Roe basically overturned DEMOCRACY. Roe was a edict from an unelected Supreme Court.
The combined Justices of the Bushes and Trump managed to read the Constitution and overturn Roe, sending the decision to the states where it can be DEMOCRATICALLY voted on by each state. Oh, and since Roe was overturned, the DemoNazis in Congress had plenty of time (and a Senile Pedophile who would have signed Charles Manson's pardon if that animal was still alive) to pass a national abortion on demand bill into law.
affirmative action,
Same thing as Jim Crow. It is racist and it violates the Civil Rights Act.
That's why Unelected Joe needed voter fraud to overturn his landslide LOSS in 2020.
Still waiting for any shred of evidence to support your ludicrous claim, dude.
Trump brought SIXTY ONE court cases at different levels in different states with different teams of lawyers, and NONE of them found any evidence of significant election fraud. NONE of them.
Trump also asked his attorney general (and one of his staunchest allies), William Barr, to have the 112,000 member Dept of Justice look into election fraud. I don't know how many members were assigned to look for fraud, but with 112,000 members they have plenty of resources. Barr told the AP that U.S. attorneys and FBI agents have been working to follow up specific complaints and information they’ve received, but “to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.”
But wait! There's more!!
In the days after his 2020 loss, Trump's campaign commissioned two different independent firms to look into 2020 election fraud: Simpatico Software, headed by Ken Block, and Berkeley Research Group. Neither found any significant fraud.
In the months after Biden took power, the republican states of Arizona and Georgia carried out very careful hand recounts and examinations of voter rolls, including the notorious Arizona "Cyber Ninja" hand count. Both found no significant fraud and no signs of funny business.
Additional "rigged election" claims have evaporated under scrutiny.
(1) Mike Lindell? Lost to his own "prove me wrong" thing. (2) Mark Meadows? Recanted under oath. (3) Sydney "Kracken" Powell? Recanted under oath. (4) Kenneth Chesebro? Recanted under oath. (5) Rudy Giuliani? Convicted of defamation. (6) Vote counting machines? They match hand counts. (7) 2000 Mules? Source "True the Vote" refuses to back up any of their claims in court, despite subpoenas. (8) Fox News paid out $787,500,000 because they couldn't support their claims of election fraud. $787,500,000 - that ain't pocket change. A business doesn't pay out $787,500,000 for defamation without first spending millions to see if there might be a shred of support for what its people said; to find some excuse for why it's not defamation.
Source info for all points available upon request.
So there you have it, .. There's no rational reason to believe Trump's lies about a "rigged" or "stolen" election. Evidence for it doesn't exist. Now I know all these investigations won't change the minds of cvlt members, but an immunity to evidence is one of the ways you know you're in a CVLT!!!
@ElwoodBlues Thanks, I never knew the evidence against fraud in 2020 election was so comprehensive. That some still claim fraud reveals something in such people - I'm not sure what, perhaps its the actual reality of "thinking for oneself" in a strange perverted sort of wsy!
They won’t answer, but basically: when everyone acted “white” and women were basically “homemakers”.
That means: 1) English was clearly the language of the land. 2) Non-heterosexuals were neither seem nor heard 3) women were wives and homemakers first 4) minorities would strive to “assimilate” to “white American” culture in language, dress, cuisine, what names they give their kids, etc. 5) American global arrogance was acceptable and needed no apology.
In short, maga folks feel very offended that their local wendys closed and a mexican takeout opened in its place.
WRONG on all counts. Those are bogus numbers from a far left rag.
Now is your chance to PROVE it!!
Here are the numbers in question.
JOB CREATION Reagan 16.5 million Clinton 18.6 million Bush 5.8 million Obama 8.9 million Trump NEGATIVE 3 million
YEARLY DEFICIT Reagan $79 billion to $152 billion Clinton lowered our deficit from 255 billion to a $126 billion SURPLUS in 2001 Bush raised deficit from 0 to 1412 billion Obama lowered deficit from 1412 billion to 585 billion Trump raised from 585 billion up to ~4000 billion
DJIA Jan 20 1981, Reagan takes office 946; Jan 20 1989, Reagan leaves office 2235; Up 136% or 11.3% growth per year. Jan 20 1993, Clinton takes office 3242; Jan 20 2001, Clinton leaves office 10588; up 227%, or 15.92% growth per year. Jan 20 2001, Bush takes office 10588; Jan 20 2009, Bush leaves office 7949; NEGATIVE 3.5% per year. Jan 20 2009, Obama takes office 7949; Jan 20 2017, Obama leaves office 19827; up almost 150% over 8 years, or 12.1% per year (1.121^8=2.49). Jan 20 2017, Trump takes office 19827; Jan 20 2021, Trump leaves office 30,930; up 56% over 4 years, or 11.76% growth per year.
I'm gonna use stock market growth as a proxy for overall economic growth (if you prefer a different stat, feel free to supply it) "From 1952 through June 2020, annualized real stock market returns under Democrats have been 10.6% compared with 4.8% for Republicans." https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2020/07/23/historical-stock-market-returns-under-every-us-president/#51469926faaf
So go ahead, @Reason10, look up your own numbers cite your sources, and prove me wrong!!
As a passing wave to HippyJoe, regarding the arc of history, the Church on a Hill, together with mention of Darwin.
Just to say in my own defence, that many moons ago (I was about 30) I traced the current "arc of history" to Copernicus (not Darwin) It was the heliocentric proposition that shifted "Man" from the centre to the periphery and all its associated, subsequent angst.
My poem, written back then, a tad satirical but with a serious core.
Enjoy, or not.......
Oh! I wish I'd been born before Bacon When the sun still moved in the sky, When hope was in more than a daydream And beauty in more than the eye.
When the Great Chain of Being had God at the top And Old Nic down below in his lair, When people were burnt for love of their souls And not just because they were there.
Back in those days before Auschwitz When there was still trust to betray, Before Symbol and Myth became Number And the Cross became DNA.
Oh! I wish I'd been born before Bacon When Saints trod the Pilgrim's Path, When people still jumped at a bump in the night And not at a bump in a graph.
When Crusades were fought for Truths believed And Faith was the Devils hammer, Nothingness only the clay God used, The Absurd a Bishop's stammer!
When Man was seen as something more Than atoms swirling in air, Before the face of the Risen Christ Became the face of despair.
Yes, I wish I'd been born before Bacon Though there's not much to choose in the end; But I might have had serfs and a castle And I might have had Christ as a friend.
There are more than 5,000,000 (FIVE MILLION) more people employed now than during the peak under Trump. Just read the graph.
AND,
For the first time in literally GENERATIONS, real wages are growing for the lower quintile of US workers. And they're growing FASTER under Biden than they did under Obama or Trump. For the first time in GENERATIONS, the lower half of workers are sharing in our economic growth!
And the number unemployed is historically low!
Inflation? The pandemic deflation was followed by worldwide inflation; that is now gone.
Every generation, the Right says we need to go back to when things were great, back before that new thing came along and ruined everything. The time they're referring to is usually about twenty years ago.
This is why the Right is so vulnerable to conspiracy theories. They need an explanation as to what caused that new thing which ruined everything, and that lends itself to some wacky thinking about a nefarious outside force that now poisons our country.
Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Was it perhaps when the vast majority of Americans could read this and not laugh at its sentiments? WAS there ever such an age?
Yes, it's the "Again" part that is problematic. Unless there is widespread consensus over the greatness of the era that he is trying to reconstruct, it is little more than nostalgia. Divisive nostalgia at that.
Good question; How do they define great? What time period does "again" refer to? A slogan like this is a bit of practical psychology. Frustrated, angry, frightened people project their desires onto the vague slogan.
@badminton Myself, I tend to see various individuals as "great" rather than any nation at a particular time. Also, "greatness" comes in various shapes and forms (I don't really like the word myself, it always seems to suggest someone up above the rest of us, which for me -paradoxically - takes away any thought of "greatness")
America was great leading into WW2. But really emerged from that war as a global giant. Based largely on its industrial might and progress. And assisted by establishing corporate footprints in so many countries. America was the future in a time where anything seemed possible. And that lasted up until the Apollo moon landings. The Soveit Union was a military rival. But didnt have the global trade reach or the progressive momentum.. But Corporate greed linked to government and corruption of foreign governments squeezed in from the end of the Vietnam war and its got to the point where America is now feeding off its own people as much as overseas countries.😷
Harry Truman is my favorite president and i am a republican. I have visited his home and read just about everything about him. Why? he followed one of the most popular presidents in our country and one who did not want Harry. Harry took the reins and responsibility.
we have always been considered a super power. What we do in the US affects the rest of the world but due to bad decisions and horrible elections, we became a mockery. Take Biden for instance, he can't walk and talk at the same time. no one respects him and so foreign countries will use thatto their advantage.
Trump on the other hand means business. and the bad players know it
@hippyjoe1955 Simoly put, I don't take him seriously at all. Not a documented liar.
Respect? A few people who I have known at a personal level. Why? They had empathy, had overcome a lot of personal problems, had reached out to help others.
Personally I don't read newspapers, only listen to the news headlines before switching channels.
If you believe that, I've got a challenge for you! It's called
!!! Spot the Trump Miracle !!!
Here's ten years of job creation data. Ignore the drop of 22 million jobs when the pandemic started and concentrate on how job creation changed starting in Dec 2017 when Trump introduced his trillion dollar tax cut.
Do you see a "Trump miracle"? Do you see any change in jobs? Do you see any difference whatsoever between job creation rates under Obama and Trump? I surely don't.
Here's monthly rate of job growth in thousands; it's effectively the derivative of the above; it would show any changes in rate of job growth if changes had occurred. See any "Trump miracle"? Me neither!
I think after the war... Winning is always a good moral boost and I believe things were good for most American citizens... Full employment, new industries and a sense of moral righteousness
@LesDawsonsPiano Uneducated goose steppers always do this when they lose an argument with me. They go after the screen name. And they have no idea what the REason Foundation is, since they get most of their information from the FARTING COWS OF THE VIEW.
Before MOST of the NAzis here were born, I was in the early 90s doing some serious study of the Libertarians, (back when they were a free market CAPITALIST party and not the bunch of ignorant stoners they have become today.) I studied the great economists of all time: Ludwig Von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, David Ricardo, Ayn Rand, etc.
Reason Foundation was part of that movement.
Maybe that's why I'm a little impatient with the uneducated Nazi CHILDREN here. They truly have bat guano for brains,and they are PROUD of their ignorance.
@Reason10 You talk as a child who considers themselves educated. No one has actually lost an argument with you. Grow up and try to learn an educated form of discourse rather than name dropping and name calling.
It means removing the totalitarian rot that has set in. Bringing back the freedom we had bringing back American manufacturing. Taking our country back.
The term MAGA isn't something that was embraced through a somber remembering by the far-right of American politics, including Donald Trump himself; MAGA is in reference to a period in American history when the fake perception of wealth, prosperity ..and being the best at everything ..and America single-handedly winning WWII was flogged to the uneducated, unwary American public as being their reality, when none of it held any truth.
But truth doesn't sell politics in a wholesale Democratic Republic offering and the illusory place in time and space and near-history that MAGA is referring to, doesn't actually exist in the real world, anymore than the real world exists as Alice in Wonderland saw it as well, after she fell down the rabbit hole.
That book of Alice's adventures should really have been named "Alice in America" because both tales are interchangeable, meaning one in the same.
[/quote] During the times of peace when the American economy was booming. Mostly Republican led booms.
[quote] Just asking. When exactly was America great, and of what did such greatness consist?
[/quote] To be more specific, I'd have to go back to the President Reagan model. He inherited the worst economy of the time, along with the Soviet Union about to threaten the world with a nuclear holocaust. The weakness of the last president (carter) allowed a criminal regime in Iran to commit an international act of WAR, by taking our hostages. Reagan wisely got them home safe and did not escalate the situation. Because of Reagan's military buildup, the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Planetary extinction of all human life was averted.
Americans experienced the greatest prosperity of all time. Here are Reagan's numbers. https://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/the-real-reagan-economic-record-responsible-and-successful-fiscal-policy
@LesDawsonsPiano What right wing tags? I speak for most of America. That's why Unelected Joe needed voter fraud to overturn his landslide LOSS in 2020.
