TheQueenBree · 26-30, F
There is a few days before that suspension starts though isn’t there? Maybe they can get a no confidence vote in their and make that interim government. I don’t want Corbyn as leader...I don’t trust Corbyn as leader...but he’s better than no one at all
I don’t think Johnson can win whatever though. A no deal will be a disaster but farage will blame any consequences on the government ‘being full of remainers’ and the loons will still vote for him
I don’t think Johnson can win whatever though. A no deal will be a disaster but farage will blame any consequences on the government ‘being full of remainers’ and the loons will still vote for him
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TheQueenBree
I am a Corbynista FYI but I salute your pragmatism. Its a shame Jo Swinson didn't show the same big-picture thinking two weeks ago. If hard Brexit can be stopped then socialists and liberals need to work together.
I think no deal will be a disaster but I think they will borrow to pump shit loads of money into the economy in the short term. After there will be a long slow recession but they will try to blame that on something else.
I don’t want Corbyn as a leader...I don’t trust Corbyn as leader...but he’s better than no one at all
I am a Corbynista FYI but I salute your pragmatism. Its a shame Jo Swinson didn't show the same big-picture thinking two weeks ago. If hard Brexit can be stopped then socialists and liberals need to work together.
I think no deal will be a disaster but I think they will borrow to pump shit loads of money into the economy in the short term. After there will be a long slow recession but they will try to blame that on something else.
TheQueenBree · 26-30, F
@Burnley123 thank you. I don’t think Corbyn is trustworthy but he’d be tied up by the rest of labour and the Lib Dems, snp etc so I guess it really doesn’t matter who’s the interim government leader and yeah the arguing about who should be leader is pointless. Although I guess it’s just as pointless that labour wouldn’t give in and support a different interim PM too, it really wouldn’t make so much difference
I don’t know what they’ll do. I mean, there’s gonna be an election soon anyway isn’t there either by no confidence, boris overconfidence or too many tories leaving and who tf knows what will happen then, we’ll have a crazy coalition or something that still can’t get anything solved
I don’t know what they’ll do. I mean, there’s gonna be an election soon anyway isn’t there either by no confidence, boris overconfidence or too many tories leaving and who tf knows what will happen then, we’ll have a crazy coalition or something that still can’t get anything solved
MartinII · 70-79, M
Dear oh dear. How many times do I have to say these things.
The people voted for Brexit. Nothing more, nothing less. They said nothing about deals or no deals, nor were they given an opportunity to do so. No deal has just as much of a mandate as any other form of Brexit. Why is it that otherwise highly intelligent people cannot grasp this simple fact?
“The opposition to no deal has majority support in Parliament and the country.” Parliament - yes, Parliament - legislated to provide for no deal when it voted to start the Article 50 process, which guarantees a no deal exit after two years in the absence of a deal. Every time Parliament has been invited to approve a deal, they have voted to reject it. If they do indeed oppose no deal, they have a very odd way of showing it. As to the country, no-one else has been given an opportunity to vote on the matter, except in the 2016 referendum (see above).
“The opposition parties looked like they were getting together a viable [method] to postpone Brexit.” And I’m the Queen of Sheba. In any case, the government’s announcement today was not influenced by the strange meeting at Church House yesterday. For one thing, it must have been discussed and agreed with Buckingham Palace some days ago. I’m confident it has been planned from the moment Douglas Cummings was given a desk in the Cabinet Office.
For the avoidance of doubt, this post contains no expression of opinion on the merits of Brexit, with or without a deal, nor on the appropriateness of the government’s decision to prorogue Parliament from the second week in September until 14 October.
The people voted for Brexit. Nothing more, nothing less. They said nothing about deals or no deals, nor were they given an opportunity to do so. No deal has just as much of a mandate as any other form of Brexit. Why is it that otherwise highly intelligent people cannot grasp this simple fact?
“The opposition to no deal has majority support in Parliament and the country.” Parliament - yes, Parliament - legislated to provide for no deal when it voted to start the Article 50 process, which guarantees a no deal exit after two years in the absence of a deal. Every time Parliament has been invited to approve a deal, they have voted to reject it. If they do indeed oppose no deal, they have a very odd way of showing it. As to the country, no-one else has been given an opportunity to vote on the matter, except in the 2016 referendum (see above).
“The opposition parties looked like they were getting together a viable [method] to postpone Brexit.” And I’m the Queen of Sheba. In any case, the government’s announcement today was not influenced by the strange meeting at Church House yesterday. For one thing, it must have been discussed and agreed with Buckingham Palace some days ago. I’m confident it has been planned from the moment Douglas Cummings was given a desk in the Cabinet Office.
For the avoidance of doubt, this post contains no expression of opinion on the merits of Brexit, with or without a deal, nor on the appropriateness of the government’s decision to prorogue Parliament from the second week in September until 14 October.
View 11 more replies »
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@MartinII Perhaps but fear is the only real reason the brexiteers are against another referendum.
QueenOfZaun · 26-30, F
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MartinII That's a Conservative perspective on things and yes for the right wing section of Brexiteers, liberalism and cosmopolitanism were the enemy. However, there are a lot of working class voters who (wrongly in my view) think that the anti establishments aspect will help them. It's a right wing anti establishment that is driving the process.
Uncfred · 61-69, M
@QueenOfZaun Things did happen rather quickly, with no time for full explanation, how many folk would vote the same now?
QueenOfZaun · 26-30, F
@Uncfred That’s a very good question
room101 · 51-55, M
Regardless of what the Brexiteers said in their campaigns, or the Remainers for that matter, the choice that was put to us was a simple one:
do you want to stay in the EU or do you want to leave the EU.
Much to my dismay, the majority voted to leave. That's democracy in action. End of story.
do you want to stay in the EU or do you want to leave the EU.
Much to my dismay, the majority voted to leave. That's democracy in action. End of story.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy And from me saying that, as responsible voters it is incumbent on as all to inform ourselves; from me telling you how I went about informing myself; from me basically saying that we should utilise critical thinking based on the knowledge that we've gleaned to determine if we are being told a load of codswallop or not...........you inferred that I hate the voters.
Yeah, I've got it. 🤦♂️
Yeah, I've got it. 🤦♂️
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 Well yes it suggested a bitterness about the first one that resulted in you thinking people didn't deserve to vote again. I don't know why ypu make that argument about people not researching if you don't think they don't deserve another vote.Then you eventually told me you had other daft reasons against it😜. I don't think you hate anyone and you seem pretty decent you just gave me that impression through your research rants. Anyway I think we've gone back and forth enough so I'm done. Enjoy your night.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy You mean like the daft reason for a second referendum? You know, the one that goes:
"Oh please let me vote again, I didn't know what I was doing the first time around."
"Oh please let me vote again, I didn't know what I was doing the first time around."
LegendofPeza · 61-69, M
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 Credit for what?😂 It has nothing to do with principle so she deserves no credit. I'm not against working with her, though I would throw in a condition regarding something else.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@thatscottishguy Would you support a Rangers fan to stop brexit?
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 After knowing me for years you really need to ask if I'd throw my politics out the window for football?
SW-User
There is a democratic mandate to deliver Brexit though, the public were never asked to vote on hard or soft Brexit, and there is certainly no democratic mandate to allow remainers to stop Brexit at any cost. If there were to be a second referendum, which there likely won't be, it could only be a choice between deal or no deal. Remain couldn't be on the ballot paper if anyone cares about the democratic vote that has already been delivered.
SW-User
@Burnley123 I honestly believe that none of this would have happened if one or two things were done differently in the past. We all know that mass immigration had a big impact on the outcome of the referendum, as did the general lack of protection for British traditions. Those were the things being talked about by the man/woman on the street every day and I'm not talking about the idiot racists either. It's the shift in the moderates that made up the difference, in my opinion. It's those who were on the fence who were pushed over to the side of leave.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
SW-User
@Burnley123 I'm certainly not anti immigration. I've lived overseas twice, in Muslim countries, and have been treated very well in both. Those countries weren't afraid to protect their customs though, religious or otherwise. There was no equivalent of the 'can't wear your crucifix at work in a Christian country lest you might offend someone' that happened here. Countries in the middle and far east have no hesitation in protecting their identity and tradition. That is not labelled as racism or prejudice and the expat communities that I were a part of never took it as such.
TheSirfurryanimalWales · 61-69, M
Problem is I reckon Jeremy Corbyn-who I would love to see in power -wants to stop Brexit all together.I voted for it three years ago ,was amazed to be on the winning side and if the Remainers were to succeed where does that leave democracy?
Can we stop a no deal Brexit?I suspect not-and what Boris has just done is legal.Doesn't mean I agree with it.
The whole thing has been a mess since Cameron held the unnecessary referendum and we ended up with a weak PM having to negotiate our way out.But ultimately our elected representatives have to implement the result of said referendum.And the sooner the better.
Can we stop a no deal Brexit?I suspect not-and what Boris has just done is legal.Doesn't mean I agree with it.
The whole thing has been a mess since Cameron held the unnecessary referendum and we ended up with a weak PM having to negotiate our way out.But ultimately our elected representatives have to implement the result of said referendum.And the sooner the better.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TheSirfurryanimalWales I think Corbyn is Brexit agnostic. He's been attacked by Labour leavers and remainers though Labour remainers rarely acknowledge that labour leavers like you exist.
I supported remain but accept the result has a mandate for soft brexit. the polarisation is huge though. Most leavers want no deal and most remainers want brexit stopped.
I supported remain but accept the result has a mandate for soft brexit. the polarisation is huge though. Most leavers want no deal and most remainers want brexit stopped.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest They are both populist figureheads but who have cynical and cunning people behind them.
The short answer is: I don't know. They could make Corbyn interim PM to postpone article 50 and call an election. Leader of the opposition carries some constitutional weight so this would work if there was a political will. The Tories hate him though because he's seen as too left-wing. The (right-leaning) Liberal Democrat leadership are not much different on this so it probably won't happen.
As you know, we don't have a written constitution but we technically do have a constitution due to laws and convention. Now all conventions are being ignored and the laws we have are being fought over.
What Johnson did was a grey area and all other things which could stop him are likewise very grey. People are really pissed of with Johnson though and all opposition parties are all against his move. It will be a really messy battle with competing claims of legal, ethical and democratic legitimacy. It's a mess.
The short answer is: I don't know. They could make Corbyn interim PM to postpone article 50 and call an election. Leader of the opposition carries some constitutional weight so this would work if there was a political will. The Tories hate him though because he's seen as too left-wing. The (right-leaning) Liberal Democrat leadership are not much different on this so it probably won't happen.
As you know, we don't have a written constitution but we technically do have a constitution due to laws and convention. Now all conventions are being ignored and the laws we have are being fought over.
What Johnson did was a grey area and all other things which could stop him are likewise very grey. People are really pissed of with Johnson though and all opposition parties are all against his move. It will be a really messy battle with competing claims of legal, ethical and democratic legitimacy. It's a mess.
Northwest · M
@Burnley123
This is what I meant by rebels without a clue. I was always puzzled by your no-Constitution, laws/convention-driven system. It's kind of like walking into a museum, looking at something, and then moving along, so others can enjoy. Then, one day, some asshole walks in, and blocks the view of the Mona Lisa all day long. There is no law preventing him from doing it, but civilized people don't go there.
Boris and Trump think they're "smarter" than everyone else. That's not true, but when everyone plays by civil rules, Boris and Donald can win. The country does not win. They win, and they are performing to a particular crowd.
Congress said no to a wall. The people said no to a wall. Trump ignored it all, and took money that was allocated to the military, and allocated it for a wall. No one needed to write a law for that, but it's a loophole. Plenty of those out there, and this is going to force "civil" society, to turn into assholes, to prevent this sort of stuff in the future.
Now all conventions are being ignored and the laws we have are being fought over.
This is what I meant by rebels without a clue. I was always puzzled by your no-Constitution, laws/convention-driven system. It's kind of like walking into a museum, looking at something, and then moving along, so others can enjoy. Then, one day, some asshole walks in, and blocks the view of the Mona Lisa all day long. There is no law preventing him from doing it, but civilized people don't go there.
Boris and Trump think they're "smarter" than everyone else. That's not true, but when everyone plays by civil rules, Boris and Donald can win. The country does not win. They win, and they are performing to a particular crowd.
Congress said no to a wall. The people said no to a wall. Trump ignored it all, and took money that was allocated to the military, and allocated it for a wall. No one needed to write a law for that, but it's a loophole. Plenty of those out there, and this is going to force "civil" society, to turn into assholes, to prevent this sort of stuff in the future.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest I completely agree. Our unwritten constitution means we are more vulberable to people doing this. The new populist right have no respect for conventions and playing nice won't solve the problem cos they just don't care.
We have to fight back. Its will be ugly but sometimes the war comes to you, whether you want it too or not. If you make a peace sign as tank rolls over you, soneone watching might think you are a nice person...
The hard right are very good at mobilising the culture war in support of their economic agenda and there is no more blatant example than this.
We have to fight back. Its will be ugly but sometimes the war comes to you, whether you want it too or not. If you make a peace sign as tank rolls over you, soneone watching might think you are a nice person...
The hard right are very good at mobilising the culture war in support of their economic agenda and there is no more blatant example than this.
CheshireCatalyst · 41-45, M
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@CheshireCatalyst So do I mate.
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MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 I notice you offer no arguments on points 1 and 2, merely unsupported assertions. The oxymoron is that people claim to be acting in support of democracy when in fact they are seeking to frustrate the implementation of the only two democratic decisions that have been taken on this subject.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MartinII None of you lexiteers have commented on that video. How do you explain that the leave campaign supported the Norway option but now sees the Norway option as a sell-out?
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SatanBurger · 36-40, F
Uncfred · 61-69, M
@SatanBurger As much as I may agree with you, I don't think democratic actions will get us out of this mess.🙂
SatanBurger · 36-40, F
@Uncfred Neither will fascism.
Uncfred · 61-69, M
@SatanBurger I trust you have experienced fascism, or even understand it fully? Time will tell if Boris has the effect needed, but I can see no reason for your malignment of his actions, give the guy a chance.
NeloAngelo · 26-30, M
i didn't want brexit but i was outvoted. deal or not we need to go through with it or call it off entirely. being in limbo is causing more problems than either option
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@NeloAngelo Oh I dunno. I get the Brexit fatigue though and that is why a no-deal brexit is likely to happen. The 'just get on with it' fatalism.
Uncfred · 61-69, M
Unfortunately, or not, what will be will be.
Brianthesnail · 56-60, M
Well since there is no written constitution, is it not possible for parliament to ignore the Queen and continue to work . . .?
Or they could behead her, like in the good old days.
On the other hand if the parliament is keen to be allowed to debate the issue, why did they take their summer holidays, with such a crisis on the doorstep
Or they could behead her, like in the good old days.
On the other hand if the parliament is keen to be allowed to debate the issue, why did they take their summer holidays, with such a crisis on the doorstep
Gusman · 61-69, M
Just becoming a Dog's Breakfast.
The world it going to rack and ruin
The world it going to rack and ruin
tenente · 100+, M
this shithead is gambling with the lives of UK voters - he's hoping he'll negotiate a better trade deal with EU after the 'no deal'. if he does then he can take sole credit and look like a hero, and if he doesn't he thinks he can blame the E.U. so he thinks he can't lose. the people in the UK are totally fucked now