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Can a no-deal/hard Brexit be stopped?

Sadly, it's not looking likely after Boris Johnson just suspended Parliament until right up to the Brexit deadline.

There is not a democratic mandate to do this. A no-deal/hard Brexit has never had majority public support and the referendum result of 2016 includes those who voted for a soft Brexit. Even Nigel Farage himself advocated the 'Norway option' during the referendum campaign. Mr Johnson himself has no parliamentary majority for this move and he has not himself won a general election. What he does have though, is strong ideological control of the majority of his own party and ambiguities in our unwritten constitution means he can carry out this move which is perhaps (arguably) within the letter of the law, though fundamentally against it's spirit.

What sparked our Prime Minister into this nuclear option was the fact that opposition to his Brexit plans in Parliament was finally and belatedly coming together. The opposition to no-deal Brexit commands majority support in the Parliament and the country but is internally divided. Two weeks ago, the Liberal Democrats and moderate Tories refused an offer from Jeremy Corby, the Labour leader, to make him an interim PM to stop a no-deal Brexit. However, the opposition parties have met over the past few days to smoke their peace pipes and looked like they were getting to together a viable to postpone Brexit.

It's clear that there will be another general election soon because the Conservative party has no clear majority and because there is no majority for Brexit. Johnson and his people have been very cynical and ruthless here though in their determination to carry out hard Brexit by 'whatever means necessary'. Rumours are that there could be an election straight after Brexit, after the decision has been made but before the consequences hit. Johnson is counting that the Tory base and Brexit ultras will vote for him and that opposition is divided enough to make him PM again. This is damaging for the country in so many ways but time is running out.
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room101 · 51-55, M
Regardless of what the Brexiteers said in their campaigns, or the Remainers for that matter, the choice that was put to us was a simple one:

do you want to stay in the EU or do you want to leave the EU.

Much to my dismay, the majority voted to leave. That's democracy in action. End of story.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 Would it not be democracy in action to see what people want when they know the details of it?
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@room101 I don't disagree and said so in my post. The vote has a mandate for some kind of Brexit, but not for a hard Brexit. I've debated this with others here.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy People should have made it their business to know the details of it before they cast their vote. We are meant to be a responsible electorate. To be a responsible electorate isn't it incumbent on us all to inform ourselves?
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 What they were being told was that it would be a soft brexit and we'd have a deal like Norway. Since we're not getting that what is wrong with checking what people would prefer?
room101 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 You and I have debated this point ad infinitum in the past. I'm yet to see how you can say that the vote did not generate a mandate for a hard (aka no deal) Brexit.

I hate to sound like a hard core Brexiteer but, leave means leave. That is the question that was asked. Nowhere did the ballot paper say leave under x, y or z circumstances. You know this as well as I do because we both voted using the same ballot papers.

Would I like to see us leave the EU with a deal? Of course I would. We had one. We still have one. But, Corbyn and Co were more interested in ousting the Tories (and still are) than they were in making that deal work.

I'm not putting the blame for this debacle only on Corbyn's shoulders but.........🤷‍♂️
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@room101 LOL. You've never liked him anyway. You won't oppose a Brexit but want Corbyn to oppose Brexit better.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy We were told a whole bunch of nonsense by both sides. And we still are.

What is wrong with researching how the EU works? What it does in reality and how it does it. What is wrong with understanding the fundamental principles under which the EU functions and then using that knowledge to see if what we are being told holds water or not?

That's what I did. I'm no financial or political or whatever expert but, it was ridiculously easy to find this stuff out from credible sources. Credible sources like the EU itself and HMRC and pretty much any .gov website that deals with imports and exports etc.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 So your reason you don't want another vote is you hate the voters after the first referendum? Great reason that. Seriously what is wrong with one now they definitely have the information?
room101 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 Of course I don't like him. What the hell has that got to do with anything.

Like him or dislike him, if he had pinned his colours to the mast (whatever those colours may have been) then we would have something to discuss. He didn't. He still hasn't. He is trying to e maneuver himself into No. 10. That's all he has tried to do from the get go.

"You won't oppose a Brexit but want Corbyn to oppose Brexit better."

What does that even mean?
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@room101 I like you personally though here we disagree. I think corbyn is trying to sort out the mess and prevent a no deal.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy What are you talking about? Where have I said that I hate the voters, of either side?

What is wrong with a second referendum? First and foremost, it makes a mockery of our democratic process. Second, it raises the question of when do we stop having yet more and more re-runs of any vote. Third, what if a second referendum yields an even higher leave result? Wouldn't that guarantee no future relationship with the EU? Fourth.......oh sod it, if you can't see how damaging a second referendum would be then there is really no point in me continuing.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 😂Write a whole paragraph but say sod it there's no point. Your reason for not wanting another one seems to be that the voters are stupid so don't deserve another vote. How is it undemocratic to ask people if they actually want this brexit. If leave wins it just means we leave with no deal and if remain wins then we get out of this mess. You can keep having re-runs if you want but I think this one would look pretty conclusive.
room101 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 I like you too. And I respect your intellect and your integrity. I've said so a number of times as I recall.

But it does bug me when you dismiss my arguments on the grounds that I don't like Corbyn. I don't like Theresa May either but I could understand, and support, what she was trying to do.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy "seems to be that the voters are stupid so don't deserve another vote"

Please show me where I have said that. Please show me where I have implied or stated explicitly that voters don't deserve whatever it is YOU think that they don't deserve.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 You haven't stated it but the reason you were giving me for not having another one is that people didn't do the research. That implies to me you think they don't deserve one because they were to stupid to research the first time. You hadn't given me any other reason when I said it so seemed to be why.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy I haven't given you another reason? Then I strongly recommend that you go back through what I've said throughout this little exchange. Feel free to ask questions but please, please, please do not imbed what you have inferred onto what I have said.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 I said you hadn't when I said it if you have a read. You had given me no other reason at the time.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy This is what I've said to you on this specific thread:


room101 · 46-50, M
@thatscottishguy People should have made it their business to know the details of it before they cast their vote. We are meant to be a responsible electorate. To be a responsible electorate isn't it incumbent on us all to inform ourselves?

room101 · 46-50, M
@thatscottishguy We were told a whole bunch of nonsense by both sides. And we still are.

What is wrong with researching how the EU works? What it does in reality and how it does it. What is wrong with understanding the fundamental principles under which the EU functions and then using that knowledge to see if what we are being told holds water or not?

That's what I did. I'm no financial or political or whatever expert but, it was ridiculously easy to find this stuff out from credible sources. Credible sources like the EU itself and HMRC and pretty much any .gov website that deals with imports and exports etc.

room101 · 46-50, M
@thatscottishguy What are you talking about? Where have I said that I hate the voters, of either side?

What is wrong with a second referendum? First and foremost, it makes a mockery of our democratic process. Second, it raises the question of when do we stop having yet more and more re-runs of any vote. Third, what if a second referendum yields an even higher leave result? Wouldn't that guarantee no future relationship with the EU? Fourth.......oh sod it, if you can't see how damaging a second referendum would be then there is really no point in me continuing.



Please note that in my last reply to you (you know, the one right above this sentence) I gave THREE reasons why I don't agree with a second referendum.
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 As I said when I said that was your reason you hadn't given me any other reasons. That last reply is after I said that. Get it?
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy And from me saying that, as responsible voters it is incumbent on as all to inform ourselves; from me telling you how I went about informing myself; from me basically saying that we should utilise critical thinking based on the knowledge that we've gleaned to determine if we are being told a load of codswallop or not...........you inferred that I hate the voters.

Yeah, I've got it. 🤦‍♂️
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
@room101 Well yes it suggested a bitterness about the first one that resulted in you thinking people didn't deserve to vote again. I don't know why ypu make that argument about people not researching if you don't think they don't deserve another vote.Then you eventually told me you had other daft reasons against it😜. I don't think you hate anyone and you seem pretty decent you just gave me that impression through your research rants. Anyway I think we've gone back and forth enough so I'm done. Enjoy your night.
room101 · 51-55, M
@thatscottishguy You mean like the daft reason for a second referendum? You know, the one that goes:

"Oh please let me vote again, I didn't know what I was doing the first time around."