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Should we have listened to Patton?

“I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof — that’s their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you. They lived on the land coming down. There is insufficient left for them to maintain themselves going back. Let’s not give them time to build up their supplies. If we do, then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but [b]we have failed in the liberation of Europe[/b]; we have lost the war!”

George S. Patton

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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

Stupid war mongering and anti communist bullshit. Hell the US attacked the USSR in 1917 and they got their asses kicked while the soviets were still fighting a civil war.

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SW-User

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow seriously dude, that’s not what happened. Apparently you believe propaganda for history.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@SW-User Yeah no. Your comment proves you swallowed propaganda instead of actual history. I am sorry reality doesn't fit your John Birch Society approved cold war cliches.

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heavyone2 · 61-69, M

Patton was a Master at Strategy

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jackjjackson · 61-69, M

Oh, you mean like you. @whowasthatmaskedman

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@jackjjackson Pretty much.. I think we can both thank the gods that I am not your neighbour. I really couldnt be bothered making it look like an accident..😷

heavyone2 · 61-69, M

@whowasthatmaskedman Well,, he did believe he'd been here several times.... so yes.. he probably would not have enjoyed peace time at all!

Human1000 · M

The Red Army in 1945 was a colossuses. For comparison, the Americans had about 200,000 soldiers at the Battle of the Bulge. The Red Army entered the Battle of Berlin with about 2,000,000. The Americans could never have defeated the Red Army, and don't forget, the Soviet Union had troops in the East, too.

The soldiers of the Red Army were battle hardened rapists who had fought the Wehrmacht for 1000 miles. Good luck.

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ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M

@Human1000 Nope, just saying IF we had the will we could have driven the Soviets back; we did not have that will. Just like we probably could have taken Berlin, but Eisenhower decided it wasn't worth the loss of US lives, so let the Soviets do the street to street fighting. Also, though we never followed up on the threat, I was just seeing a documentary about one of the reasons for the destruction of Dresden was an an object lesson to the Soviets of what we could do if we wanted to.

And, no, you childish insults don;t have any effect on me. I'd tell you to grow up, but you choice of name says enough already.

Human1000 · M

@ChipmunkErnie Not really an insult, just when I’m talking to someone whose main point is “We had the bomb” like a video game there isn’t any point.

SomeMichGuy · M

@ChipmunkErnie We had the technology to make atomic bombs.

That is not the same as having the bombs, themselves.

It is unclear that there were any other bombs ready after the two dropped on Japan, and likely those two WERE our inventory at the time.

Getting enough refined fissle material would take time, as well as making more bombs.

What you really would like to know is

• what was the status of our nuclear arsenal in mid-1948?

• were we likely to use it on Russian targets before the USSR could have a first test of an atomic bomb (end of Aug., 1949, withOUT a war going on)?

The info stolen by the spy network of the Rosenbergs had already done a lot of damage by the end of WWII.

Heartlander · 80-89, M

Communism Vs Nazism is like Mexican drug cartels fighting one another over the right to own everyone.

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Thinkerbell · 41-45, F

@Neoerectus

[quote]"Our ruling class is dominated by moneyed special interests."[/quote]

True enough, but at least through the end of WW2 and maybe Korea, these moneyed families sent their own sons to war, for example, the Kennedys and the Roosevelts.

Now, they don't do that anymore; they just enrich themselves.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

You nailed it. It goes back to the beginning of civilization and has contunued unabated. @Neoerectus

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

How about all the famous athletes that were in the military during WWII, Ted Williams, etc. and in the primes of their careers? Not to mention Elvis Presley and others from that community. @Thinkerbell

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

Patton is off his rocker, Soviet logistics were on point in 1945 and Russians would have tore him a new one. Easily.

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irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@QuixoticSoul There were also Russians who fought for the Nazis. It's never a monolith.

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@irishmolly72 How did that go for them?

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@QuixoticSoul They murdered and raped just like the Russian army did. Some of them even paid the price for it.

Roadsterrider · 56-60, M

Hindsight is 20/20, if Patton had engaged the USSR in 1945, and won, would we have avoided Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan? Would we be worrying about China? Would Croatia and Ukraine still seem to be the opening gambit of WW3?

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jackjjackson · 61-69, M

I don’t see the Europeans as a de facto colony. I see them as another rathole for our taxpayer money to fall down and most of them don’t even like us. A great test would be for the Us to say it is no longer hosting the UN and put UN hosting out to bid. What do you think would happen? Speaking of colonies, I’m in favor of terminating Puerto Rico’s territory status and as for statehood forget it. Another rathole where US taxpayer dollars go to ungrateful haters. Speaking of statehood DC was made the way it was for a good reason that has not changed. No statehood there ever. @PicturesOfABetterTomorrow

Roadsterrider · 56-60, M

@jackjjackson I would like to see the US drop out of the UN, not sure about NATO, NATO is certainly more of an issue for Europe than the US. The US pays 22% of the UN budget, for the last couple decades, they seem to have been interested in schemes to relieve the US of it's sovereignty. They do nothing that promotes the US even though this country keeps the lights on there.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

I agree with the result. I prefer my plan because it shows the American public for the bloodsucking haters most of the other freeloading countries are. @Roadsterrider

wildbill83 · 36-40, M

yep, Churchill and Roosevelt never should've allied with Stalin to begin with. Would've been better off in the long run to take Russia after Germany wore them down (Germany was within 50 miles of taking Moscow before Hitlers incompetence slowed them down)

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@wildbill83 That reminds me of what Mao did. He let Chiang Kai Shek do the fighting against Japan, then took over China by 1949. It was a catastrophe for the Chinese people, but an absolute stroke of genius.

BizSuitStacy · M

Patton was right, but it would not have been politically popular at the time.

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LeopoldBloom · M

@jackjjackson We've gone over this. Maybe if Traitor Tot hadn't "negotiated" the release of 5000 Taliban prisoners, the withdrawal would have gone better. I guess your plan would have been to disarm the Afghan army before we left, or maybe to just stay there forever and keep paying for what amounted to a make-work program for the Kabul government.

We should have ended that war in 2002, but your other genius, President Howdy Doody, got distracted with a war against the wrong country. Biden had the courage to pull off the bandaid.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

Nice to know you value American lives and used bandaids equally. @LeopoldBloom

LeopoldBloom · M

@jackjjackson Whatever the fuck that means. Yes, I value American lives and don't believe in throwing them away in pointless dick-waving exercises or throwing good money after bad.

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

No. The US was war weary and broke. Debt was 119% of GDP, which was the highest up until that time. Supply shortages were problematic too.

Defeating the Soviets would have paid obvious dividends.

But unless we were ready to go nuclear and get it over fast and inexpensively, it would have been difficult and expensive.

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jackjjackson · 61-69, M

For the better @HoraceGreenley

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@jackjjackson

wildbill83 · 36-40, M

@HoraceGreenley Russia has no strategic bomber, we had the B29; In fact, it wasn't until they captured and reverse engineered one that they had one of their own

Which is true for most Russians things, reverse engineered/stolen tech from the west

graphite · 61-69, M

Didn't Patton say we defeated the wrong enemy and needed to beat the Russians, instead?

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graphite · 61-69, M

@QuixoticSoul Interesting perspective. But 24 million dead is a lot of people.

QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M

@graphite Vast majority of those are civilians, you know.

graphite · 61-69, M

@QuixoticSoul This just lists the total. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful posts! I learned a lot, especially from people who said "no". I have to logoff, but keep the posts going if the conversation still interests you. Peace out!

soar2newhighs

Ah, too bad it wasn’t all black and white. He probably was very correct in his feelings, but many of the personnel who’d fought in Europe may not have had the will nor the spirit to fight an ally who had just helped defeat Nazi Germany.
I personally look at Patton and another larger than life figure, Douglas Mac Arthur. Both were part of the rousting of WW1 vets from their encampment in Washington after that war. Those vets wanted what the government owed them.
Look at Mac Arthur and the Japanese military commander/ Doctor Ishi and the files and medical data obtained from
Camp 731 and possibly other Similar Japanese facilities. Given the horrific nature of what went on under Ishi, was his being let off the hook a wise decision which Mac Arthur was tied to?
Oh, my dad served in Patton’s 3rd Army in France, WW2.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

MacAuthor’s egomania was perhaps only exceed by Brando’s in Apocalypse Now and LBJ’s. @soar2newhighs

ChipmunkErnie · 70-79, M

Probably should have tried -- particularly with atomic weapons on our side only. Reminds me that while WWII essentially ended for the US in 1945, it continued on in a sense in Eastern Europe as the USSR kept up its invasion of nations that didn't want to be communist.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@ChipmunkErnie Interesting historical rewrite.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@ChipmunkErnie Welcome to the fray! 🥰

SomeMichGuy · M

Sadly, turned out he was right.

carpediem · 61-69, M

Excellent post

hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M

The US has much bigger fish to fry than consider starting a war in Ukraine. If hostilities do break out it will be the US to blame not Russia and not Ukraine. Shame on the US for even talking about getting involved.

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jackjjackson · 61-69, M

Fixed thanks! @Thinkerbell

acpguy · C

@jackjjackson Liberals biggest mistake was to kill the XL as it gave Putin a lot of incentive and money. We and the Canadians could have been the ones that controlled the oil / gas prices and made us a lot more independent. Instead we have inflation, high gas prices and giving money to a lot of other bad people controlling the oil prices.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

The XL will be up and running by January 2025. @acpguy

graphite · 61-69, M

Russian diplomat yawns at sanctions. https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595270-russian-diplomat-dismisses-sanctions-were-used-to-it

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@graphite It has being going on for decades and Russia is not a third world country that can be bullied into submission.

sunsporter1649 · 70-79, M

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Nope, it's led by a bunch of jackasses that waited for a jackass to show up to make their move.

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

[quote]...we have lost the war!”
[/quote]

Yet did we? 🤷‍♂️

What were the borders then compared to now?

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jackjjackson · 61-69, M

He is quoting Patton. @DeWayfarer

DeWayfarer · 61-69, M

@jackjjackson so am I. See the very end of her quote from him.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@DeWayfarer Not attacking, just venting/debating. The Pax Americana has lasted a long time. Literally [u]billions[/u] of people have been raised out of poverty. I know it was far from perfect, but I hope it continues.

Reagan, Thatcher and John Paul actually won the final victory of WW2 IMO.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

Related info may be located here:

https://similarworlds.com/news/4240583-I-wonder-how-things-would-have-turned-out-if

acpguy · C

Yes.

Harmonium1923 · 51-55, M

A lot of great military leaders thought conquering Russia was a simple task. They were all wrong.

Having said that, the Allies could probably have done much more to save Eastern Europe from descending into a half century of autocracy.

Northwest · M

Sure, because 75 years later, we have confirmation that regime change, works swimmingly.

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dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Northwest [quote]In Germany's case, we did not get rid of middle management and the worker bees. We simply changed a bit off the top. In Japan's case, we did not touch the top of Pyramid, we only eliminated the very thin layer right below the top.[/quote]

It is an interesting distinction, although I agree with you, probably a distinction without a difference. Hitler and Nazism was seen as a top down problem where the vast numbers in middle management only joined the Nazi Party because it was required and were just doing their jobs, whereas Tojo and his middlemanagement were seen as the culprits in Japan, feeding bad advice to the Emperor. But the different personalities and management styles of Ike and MacArthur also played a role, I'm sure.

Northwest · M

@dancingtongue

[quote]the different personalities and management styles of Ike and MacArthur also played a role, I'm sure.[/quote]

Ahem, and the skin color.

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Northwest And cultures. MacArthur was very attuned to the fact that the Japanese still viewed their Emperor as a god.

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irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@SW-User Thank you.

LeopoldBloom · M

The American public would not have supported that.

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Justme22 · M

@irishmolly72 So glad you are reading your HUAC committee minutes.

LeopoldBloom · M

@irishmolly72 What a bunch of BS. Everyone was tired of the war by then.

Reagan was a senile idiot, by the way. The decline of the US started under him.

LeopoldBloom · M

@jackjjackson It’s easy to theorize from your armchair 75 years later. Please feel free to go to Ukraine right now if you want to fight the Russians so badly. Typical loudmouth coward.

Changeisgonnacome · 61-69, F

What advice? The natives never stand a chance-. It's simply fact.

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

Patton was also a virulent Antisemite.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@basilfawlty89 Is it bad if an anti-semite saves 50+ million lives by defeating Communism in 1945? Between Stalin and Mao that is a very conservative estimate. Who is your selection for a military leader who has never done anything wrong?

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@irishmolly72 doesn't change that he treated displaced Jewish like crap, had former Nazi officers overseeing them called them lower than animals.

I'm sorry, but I don't excuse antisemitism.

I could name you General Andranik Ozanian whose people were facing a genocide and he fought against the Ottomans and didn't harm innocent Turks and Kurds.

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@basilfawlty89 Why focus on Jews when almost 100 million civilians died at the hands of communism? Were those 100 million somehow less important? That was the initial topic of this discussion.

caesar7 · 61-69, M

Patton shouldn't have listen to Eisenhower but that would be mutiny. They should have in Berlin first.

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

I wonder how things would have turned out if Patton was in charge instead of Ike? Patton likely would have been president instead of Ike. @caesar7

irishmolly72 · 56-60, F

@jackjjackson You're joking, right?

jackjjackson · 61-69, M

Nope. Like George Washington, Ike as the supreme commander was swept into office whether he wanted to be or. Yo. Some would likely have happened with Patton whether he wanted to or not. @irishmolly72

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