Only logged in members can reply and interact with the post.
Join Similar Worlds today »

Rational intelligent thinking brings man to the God of nature.

There are three ways man comes to know God exists:
1. By reasoning
2. By reading the Bible (for Muslims, the Koran)
3. By meditation

I come to know God exists by num 1 i.e. reasoning, but it is the God of nature, that means that God created everything that man encounters in nature, and that by man's natural reason and intelligence.

What about you atheists? You should be able to come to the God of nature, because you have from nature the faculty of reason and of intelligence.

The explanation why you deny even the God of nature to exist, is because you are not natural but un-natural.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
[quote]why you deny even the God of nature to exist[/quote]

1. there's no proof that gods exist
2. there's no proof that gods don't exist
3. in any event, there’s [b]no compelling necessity[/b] to even postulate gods, and, in any event, the postulation explains nothing (not even itself)... it merely tries to explain everything away.
4. therefore, I have no gods (I’m an agnostic atheist)

[b]Where in that do I 'deny even the God of nature to exist'?[/b]

[quote]you are not natural but un-natural[/quote]

[b]Define un-natural[/b]
@DocSavage I know what you're discussing, Doc. Jan has posted that blurb many times in other threads. You can't lump in the god Clunk Head or whoever it is was referring to with all others to establish whether or not that one exists, not that it matters anyway.
DocSavage · M
@TheoreticSkeptic
Chunk head is a troll, he’s claiming a god, but refuses to discuss it. Just demands we accept it. We know he’s an idiot, but we’re game and want to see how far he’ll take it.
Aside from that, in this case , your comments on what can be called a god or why are irrelevant. We’re talking about a physical, supernatural being. Worship/ veneration is not part of the equation.
DocSavage · M
@newjaninev2
Glad to assist, I got chunkhead to acknowledge a universe without a creator, which was the point. Time to walk away. Watch him cry about it.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia




Why are we here? How did the universe begin? According to the Boshongo people of central Africa, before us there was only darkness, water and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomach ache, vomited up the Sun. The Sun evaporated some of the water, leaving land. Still in discomfort, Bumba vomited up the Moon, the stars and then the leopard, the crocodile, the turtle and, finally, humans.

This creation myth, like many others, wrestles with the kinds of questions that we all still ask today. Fortunately, as will become clear, we now have a tool to provide the answers: science. When it comes to these mysteries of existence, the first scientific evidence was discovered in the 1920s, when Edwin Hubble began to make observations with a telescope on Mount Wilson in California. To his surprise, Hubble found that nearly all the galaxies were moving away from us. Moreover, the more distant the galaxies, the faster they were moving away. The expansion of the universe was one of the most important discoveries of all time. [b][i]This finding transformed the debate about whether the universe had a beginning.[/i][/b]

If galaxies are moving apart at the present time, they must therefore have been closer together in the past. If their speed had been constant, then they would all have been on top of one another billions of years ago. [b][i]Was this how the universe began?[/i][/b] At that time many scientists were unhappy with the universe having a beginning because it seemed to imply that physics had broken down. [i][b]One would have to invoke an outside agency, which for convenience one can call god[/b][/i], to determine how the universe began. They therefore advanced theories in which the universe was expanding at the present time but didn’t have a beginning.
Take our expert-led online cosmology course revealing the biggest mysteries in the universe

Perhaps the best known was proposed in 1948. It was called the steady state theory, and it suggested that the universe had existed for ever and would have looked the same at all times. [b][i]This last property had the great virtue of being a prediction that could be tested, a critical ingredient of the scientific method. And it was found lacking.[/i][/b]

Observational evidence to confirm the idea that the universe had a very dense beginning came in October 1965, with the discovery of a faint background of microwaves throughout space. The only reasonable interpretation is that this “cosmic microwave background” is radiation left over from an early hot and dense state. As the universe expanded, the radiation cooled until it became just the remnant we see today. Theory soon backed up this idea.

With Roger Penrose of Oxford University, I showed that if Albert Einstein’s general theory of relativity is correct, then there would be a singularity, a point of infinite density and space-time curvature, where time has a beginning. The universe started off in the Big Bang and expanded quickly. This is called “inflation” and it was extremely rapid: the universe doubled in size many times in a tiny fraction of a second. Inflation made the universe very large, very smooth and very flat. However, it was not completely smooth: there were tiny variations from place to place. These variations eventually gave rise to galaxies, stars and solar systems. We owe our existence to these variations. If the early universe had been completely smooth, there would be no stars and so life could not have developed. We are the product of primordial quantum fluctuations. As will become clear, many huge mysteries remain. Still, we are steadily edging closer to answering the age-old questions: Where did we come from? And are we the only beings in the universe who can ask these questions?

This story by Stephen Hawking was originally published as the introduction of the New Scientist book The Origin of (Almost) Everything.
https://www.newscientist.com/question/how-did-the-universe-begin/


@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]Was this how the universe began?[/quote]

No

It was how the universe began to [b][i]expand[/i][/b]

Not the same thing... not in the slightest
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger Do you understand that there's a big difference between 'the universe began' and 'the universe began to expand'?

[b]Tell me that you understand that difference[/b]
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger I know you're going to once again abandon your god by running away to start a new thread, but before you do that:

[b][i]Tell me that you understand that difference[/i][/b]
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger You are unable to comprehend that the Big bang was not the beginning of the universe, but rather the beginning of the [i]expansion[/i] of the universe.

Ask yourself... what was going 'bang'?

As there is no known 'beginning' to the universe, there is no compelling necessity to postulate gods.

You accept that as a reasoned conclusion, because you have not argued against it.

[b]therefore... atheist[/b]

You are unable to respond in any reasoned or germane manner to my statements that:

1. there's no proof that gods exist
2. there's no proof that gods don't exist
3. in any event, there’s no compelling necessity to even postulate gods, and, in any event, the postulation explains nothing (not even itself)... it merely tries to explain everything away.
4. therefore, I have no gods (I’m an agnostic atheist)

[b]therefore... atheist.[/b]

Apparently anything and everything can be a god, so it follows that gods are indistinguishable from everything else, and their existence cannot be discerned, so there is no reason to even consider such a postulation

[b]therefore... atheist.[/b]

I congratulate you on the efficient way you have used your claims of theism to destroy theism and thereby advance your atheism
DocSavage · M
[c=009E4F]yrger/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] The explanation why you deny even the God of nature to exist, is because you are not natural but un-natural.[/quote]
I’m typing slow, I know you can’t read very fast.
So, you started yet another thread to avoid answering question, and spread more of your bullshit. Still haven’t come up with any thing new.
Well, how many gods are we up to ? You made up your nature god, I think you included the super nature one to avoid alienating the Christians, afraid to deny their god are you ? Not so confident about your own. When can we expect the one who invented love ? Goddesses
Are usually more popular for that.
You know, you have things backwards. Atheist never deny or reject god or gods out of hand. I takes a lot of effort to step away from thousands of years of tradition. It’s foolish of you to think it’s easy. Many of the more vocal Atheist, come from very religious backgrounds. They undoubtedly have more insight on the subject of god than either of us.
The more you know, however, the less sense it makes. In most cases, it’s the conflict not with science, but with morality that starts them on the path. You wonder how such a loving god could commit such horrible deeds. Then you look at history, and sciences and you have to choose between reality and what you know can’t be true. I found that faith, wasn’t worth the price of integrity.
You started all this by claiming your “true” created the universe, and that we “ultimately “ owe existence and control to him. Of course, you gave no details. You don’t have any.
There’s a few of us here willing to go into a realistic discussion on the subject. But you are not mature enough to take us on. You lack the courage of your convictions. And the intelligence to back them up.
The honest people here will do the real work, you’re just an obnoxious, narcissistic idiot. Rapidly running out of entertainment value.
DocSavage · M
[b][big][u]Asked and answered[/u][/big][/b]
This is what , the 20th time you asked the same question ? There’s nothing new to add to our answers. Apparently you don’t understand the word “[b]ultimate [/b]”
It means “final” which is why our answer never changes. You can keep repeating the question, but it’s cut and paste from here onwards, and that is the ultimate answer you get .
Emosaur · 22-25, M
The definition of the Abrahamic god is a being that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent.
At the same time, he's also described as having limited power, not knowing everything, creating, allowing, and doing evil, and not being in hell. Due to those contradictory qualities he's pretty much defined as nonexistent.
@yrger Where did God come from? Let me guess, he’s eternal by definition. That’s called begging the question.
Emosaur · 22-25, M
@yrger If you're not talking about the Abrahamic god then why are you literally pretending you were ("By reading the Bible (for Muslims, the Koran")???
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] With the God of nature, you have got to be natural to know Him[/quote]
No you don’t. Humans can perceive god because they have abstract thinking and concepts. We can see patterns, take past experiences and make predictions. It’s that ability that allows us to seek out the “ultimate “
Answer to complex questions. You imagine your god based on a pattern you imagine exist, but have yet to describe. Something that indicates design. Get it right chunkhead.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Hi Doc, you can craft words like "God is a catalyst."

But you always neglect to go outside the words inside your mind, to search for evidence in the objective world independent of your mind, evidence for the concrete reality of the Catalyst-God.

Hi everyone with reason and intelligence, atheists are full of ideas inside their mind, but never doing anything like going forth into the objective world of reality to search for concrete evidence to the for example existence of the Catalyst-God.

They harbor ideas about fallacies, but they never take the challenge to present examples of fallacies in the real life of humans outside and independent of words inside their mind, for example, the socalled fallacy of circular thinking.

Okay, atheists, give a concrete example of circular acting representing your fallacy of circular thinking - in the real world of people and actions.




@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW








DocSavage · M
@yrger/chunkhead

50 words ? How about just two : BLOW ME
That’s Check Mate again. I answered your “ultimate” question.
Already gave the details. You can keep pretending, but you’re not fooling anyone. I win - you lose.
DocSavage · M


[b]BEEN THERE, DONE THAT[/b]
LOOKS LIKE YOU DEPLETED YOUR SUPPLIES OF LOGIC AND REASON.
You have to keep recycling.
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2

Okay, you have the intellectual prowess and courage to exchange ideas with me.


From Yrger to Newjaninev2: Tell me where do we humans ultimately come from?
From Newjaninev2 to Yrger: What exactly do you mean by 'ultimately'?


@newjaninev2

I will give you an example anecdote for what is the meaning of ultimately:
[quote]A policeman is chasing a pickpocket thief, but the policeman cannot get to the thief until the thief finally runs into a dead end street.[/quote]

There, that is the meaning of ultimately.

You Newjaninev2 keeps on evading the issue where do you ultimately come from until you finally reach a dead end which is the reality of God's existence, the source of all non-indepenent beings.

Who and what is God?
"God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."




==============

newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger
[quote]you have not explained where you came from ultimately[/quote]

Because you did not ask me.

Now, enough of your weasel terms... what exactly do you mean by 'ultimately'?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

God of nature is the God man knows to exist in nature and by his (man's) natural reason and intelligence.

God of supernature is the God man knows to exist by reading the Bible (or the Koran in the case of Muslims).

What's their difference?

With the God of nature, man knows God to exist because He (God) created the material/physical universe in the Big Bang.

With the God of supernature, man reads in the Bible that God works miracles like making the sun (earth) to stop moving.

I define the God of nature thus:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."

What about you, Doc?

Which God do you deny to exist and how and why?
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger created the material/physical universe in the Big Bang

I have already explained to you that the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe.

However, you maintain your delusion by pretending not to understand that simple reality.

here it is again:

The Big Bang was the beginning of expansion of a universe [b][i]that already existed.[/i][/b]

Now ignore that simple reality and go back to your deluded rantings.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]making the sun (earth) to stop moving[/quote]

Oh, you're always good for a laugh!

The Bronze Age goat-herders who made up that fable thought that the Sun orbited the Earth (and they didn't know where the Sun went at night! 😂 )

We now know that the Earth Orbits the Sun.

Therefore in the fable the Earth would need to be what stood still. (that's why suddenly the deluded have started writing 'sun (earth)'... because even the gullible can work out that simple reality, and the con artists have started having problems selling their scam.

The speed of Earth's orbit is 107,000 kilometres per hour. Bring that to an instantaneous halt and everything living thing on the planet is instantaneously dead.

Strange we didn't spot that 😂 😂
yrger · 80-89, M
@LeopoldBloom

Hi Leop, you don't seem to link to the question what is the ultimate cause of man's existence.

Tell me how you understand these words: "what is the ultimate cause of man's existence."

Imagine that you are into an essay type university level examination of language comprehension, and the topic you are to write on in 50 words or less, is as follows:

"On the ultimate cause of man's existence."



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW









LeopoldBloom · M
@yrger How humans are existing: I assume you meant what the origin of life is. Life developed from abiotic precursors that gained in complexity through natural selection, as the structures that were able to self-replicate did so and perpetuated themselves.

There is no reason why humans exist. Or we exist for whatever reason works best for you. All value judgments originate with us.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

You say "God is a catalyst ."

In which case, please define what is utlimately a catalyst-God: in not more than 50 words.





@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW






DocSavage · M
@yrger/chunkhead
That is exactly what I’m saying. You seem to be having a problem with the idea that something can self exist. As I have repeatedly said. God is a catalyst .if the universe was a self existing singularity, something caused it to expand. There no need for that something to be permanent. Nor for it to be living and self aware. You claim your nature god is different from the traditional supernatural gods, of myth and legends ( real or not ) but can you really think outside the box ? Or are you just too afraid to imagine we’re on our own ? That there’s no one at the driving wheel ?
I’m not. I enjoy it.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]

50 words ? How about just two : [b][big][u]BLOW ME[/u][/big][/b]
That’s [b]Check Mate[/b] again. I answered your “ultimate” question.
Already gave the details. You can keep pretending, but you’re not fooling anyone. I win - you lose.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


Hi all atheists, you are asking me what is the meaning of the word, [b][i]ultimately[/i][/b].

It means finally.

W humans know that different kinds of beings in the material-physical universe came into existence in time and in space in succeeding situations.

For example, we came from our parents and our parents from their parents and on and on and on . . .

Regressing further and further into the past, we finally arrive at what I call [b][i]ultimately[/i][/b] the permanent self-existent reality that is the source of all not-self-existent beings.

With you atheists, you ultimately arrive at nothingness which to you is the final situation of all things in the material-physical universe.

And that is a most absolutely absurd status.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]You are asking me what is the meaning of the word, [b][i]ultimately[/i][/b][/quote]

[b]No, I'm not[/b]

I'm not asking you any such thing

Why are you trying to answer a question I haven't asked you?

Here's the question I have been asking you

[b]If you claim a being created the universe - what created that being?[/b]

I keep asking you that simple question... [i]and you keep running away and hiding[/i]

Are you that frightened of me?

Seriously?

This is farcical.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage
@newjaninev2
[@All_atheists]


I am asking newjaninev2 to tell me how to prove something exists, because ultimately theists and atheists must concur on what it is to prove something to exist - otherwise it is a futile labor, as you demand proof and I present proof but you then insist it's not proof, and on and on and on . . .

So, Doc, let you tell me what and how to prove something exists.

And please write without bringing up [i][b]tihs[/b][/i], unless of course you have nothing in your brain but [i][b]tihs[/b][/i] - hehehe.







DocSavage · M
@yrger/chunkhead

Yeah we do, it just doesn’t need a god, nor do we.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] So, Doc, let you tell me what and how to prove something exists[/quote]
No. You’re a troll. You simply change the context when you can not validate your claim with any evidence. You fall back on “ultimate”
As I stated before, god are manufactured so humans can break their own rules of logic. In short, gods are by nature lies.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]tell me how to prove something exists[/quote]

There's no need

I said there's no proof something exists, and no proof that the same thing doesn't exist.

Why do you keep trying to use disconnected snippets of what is said to you?

Can you only retain one thought at any time? Is that the problem?

We all know that you can;tuse a 'reply' button, so yes, perhaps there really is a little problem here...
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger and [b][i]still[/i][/b] we haven't seen the explanation you claim to have as to how and why humans are existing.

Are you lying?

Lying for your god, about your god?

Is your god OK with that?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


You Doc say: "Assume for the moment that there is no god, it all myth.
Is the universe, with all its infinite wonder and life any less incredible ?

On that assumption from you, I tell you that ultimately you are claiming that the unverse came from nothingness.

Supposing that ultimately there is no permanent self-existent creator of everything that not independently existing, then we would not be here discussing God exists or not.






DocSavage · M
@yrger /chunkhead
Atheist to theist, answer this simple question : Assume for the moment that there is no god, it all myth.
Is the universe, with all its infinite wonder and life any less incredible ?
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
That is exactly what I’m saying. You seem to be having a problem with the idea that something can self exist. As I have repeatedly said. God is a catalyst .if the universe was a self existing singularity, something caused it to expand. There no need for that something to be permanent. Nor for it to be living and self aware. You claim your nature god is different from the traditional supernatural gods, of myth and legends ( real or not ) but can you really think outside the box ? Or are you just too afraid to imagine we’re on our own ? That there’s no one at the driving wheel ?
I’m not. I enjoy it.
yrger · 80-89, M
@Mithraia

You say: "Why do you believe that God created everything that man encounters in nature. If it's by reasoning, then show your reasoning."

Here is my reasoning:
1. Nature is the material-physical universe of which man is a part of.
2. Scientists tell us the material-physical universe has a beginning.
3. Everything with a beginning implicates a creator God to bring it to its beginning.
4. Therefore, God exists as the creator of the universe i.e. nature.



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia







Mithraia · 31-35, M
Why do you believe that God created everything that man encounters in nature. If it's by reasoning, then show your reasoning.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]Scientists tell us the material-physical universe has a beginning[/quote]

You are incorrect

[b]Science says no such thing.[/b]

I have explained this to you three times... yet you ignore the reality that science does not say the 'material-physical universe' (what other sort is there?) had a beginning

Do you commonly ignore reality?

Is that how you maintain your delusions?

Now that we see your second proposition to be invalid, then the third and the fourth also fail
Mithraia · 31-35, M
@yrger Nope sorry. No one knows how the universe began. You’re simply using the argument of,

“We can’t explain how the universe began, therefore it must be God.”

Remember that people once thought God created lightning because they couldn’t explain it.

God is a construct of faith and belief. Once a scientific explanation for the Big Bang is found, millions will dismiss it and simply say that it was God. Nothing will change their minds because they have that belief…
yrger · 80-89, M
@Mithraia

You ask, "So...who created God?"

God doesn't have to create God, because things do not require multiplying - unless they are dependent on another also dependent being to come into dependent existence.

God is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature.

Atheists think according to science, but science is concerned only with composite beings, while theists think on the transcendental level, by which theists see more things, including God, and understand how God exists and why.




@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia
Mithraia · 31-35, M
@yrger So basically, science and religion are mutually exclusive. And again, it comes down to a question of faith. You either believe, in the face of all scientific evidence, or you don't.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger So you're saying (on the basis of nothing except intellectual laziness) that your gods don't need a beginning.

If that assumption is in any way valid, then it's [b][i]equally valid[/i][/b] to assume that the universe didn't need a beginning.

In which case, there's no compelling necessity to even postulate the existence of gods. The entire postulation becomes unnecessary, and can be dispensed with.

So much for your gods.
yrger · 80-89, M
@Mithraia Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words tell me what is your concept of God?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia


Addressing all atheists and also everybody else, I am Yrger the theist and author of the present thread.

I hope to get to know what kind of a world-view atheists have, including everyone else who do have a world-view that is positive or negative in effect toward God.

The God of concern is first before anything else the creator of everything that is not Himself.

My impression is that atheists are in the whole totally hostile emotionally against any world-view where God the creator has an indispensable presence.

Why are they so emotionally hostile to God?

So, hi atheists, why are you so emotionally hostile against God?
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone, I the theist and author of the present thread, "Rational intelligent thinking brings man to the God of nature."


How come atheists are no longer posting in here my thread, I guess they have depleted their coffer of useful knowledge.

Take for example DocSavage, his brain is saturated with his own tihs. In the case of newjaninev2, her mind is lost in infinite regress.


In my case I have investigated all existence and have gained a lot of ideas and realities about existence, so that my most latest definition of God of nature is the following:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia
yrger · 80-89, M
@basilfawlty89

I am dealing with the God of nature, here is my idea of the God of nature:

"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."


Let you bring up one God and give me what is the idea of that God, okay?!




=================

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@yrger horseshit. Show me how you arrived at those so called axioms. To be cognitive and conscious is to question. To blindly accept is stupidity. What makes you think your God, and not the Muslim, Hindu or Shinto God is the correct one? How do you know God is male? How do you know there are multiple deities.

Show it here with empirical evidence.
yrger · 80-89, M
@Mithraia

You say, this is my argument:
“We can’t explain how the universe began, therefore it must be God.”

It is correct, because God is the "permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."

Scientists tell us that the universe has a beginning, so we can implicate therefrom that God exists, see above.






@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2 Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words tell me what is your concept of God?
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]chunkhead[/c]
Tell you what, you start answering our questions instead of twisting them to fit in your bullshit.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
You said something can not come from nothing. Ultimately, your god did the same thing . Even if he’s self existing, there had to be a point before he existed and after he self existed himself. Which means that nothingness is the default state. There is no reasonable explanation why the entire universe cannot come about in the same manner. Like all creationist, you’re impatient. You want everything all at once.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

You say: "If god can exist without a creator."
I gladly concur with you that God does not need a creator because God and creator are identical.

But the material-physical universe is composed of ultimately particles, and particles need a creator master-mind to bring them into existence as a composite being, and keep them in existence, that is why scientists state the universe has a beginning, i.e. in the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis






DocSavage · M
If god can exist without a creator, the universe can exist without a god.
Prove us wrong or shut up.
DocSavage · M
@yrger
Quit the bullshit. You’re not fooling anyone.
If your god can exist without a creator, then anything is possible., the laws of physics don’t apply. Nothing needs a creator. It all came from nothing. No god needed.
You yourself said there are things and people that are independent of god. That means everyone , other than you.
You can have each other, we don’t need either one of you.
yrger · 80-89, M
@yrger Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words tell me what is your concept of God?
yrger · 80-89, M
[i][b]Okay, atheists, it's your turn to cite texts indicating scientists state the universe has no beginning.
[/b][/i]

@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis




Okay, hi atheists, let you and I talk about the finding by scienstists that the material-physical universe has a beginning.

From me:
This breakthrough idea later became known as the Big Bang! The Big Bang was the moment 13.8 billion years ago when the universe [i][b]began*[/b][/i] as a tiny, dense, fireball that exploded. Most astronomers use the Big Bang theory to explain how the [b][i]universe began[/i][/b].

Cfr. do scientists state that the universe has a beginning
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=do+scientists+state+that+the+universe+has+a+beginning


Okay, atheists, it's your turn to cite texts indicating scientists state the universe has no beginning.



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis
yrger · 80-89, M
@LeopoldBloom

You say, "...there has to be mutual respect and genuine curiosity on their part."

Do you have genuine curiosity to find out where humans ultimately come from?




newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger Incidentally who you think you are to call me perverted?

Unmitigated arrogance!
LeopoldBloom · M
@newjaninev2 You’re wasting your time with this guy. He makes these pronouncements, and responds with insults if you try to engage him. I’ve had meaningful discussions with religious people, but there has to be mutual respect and genuine curiosity on their part. This guy isn’t even shallow.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi everyone, in particular atheists, I want to tell you all that DocSavage admits his stock of knowledge is depleted, so there is no more need to get anything of knowledge from him.

Addressing now all atheists, please at least one of you come forward and have a one on one exchange of ideas with me on where do we humans ultimately come from.


Hi all viewers of this thread, take notice if any atheist has the intellectual prowess and courage to exchange ideas with me on where do we humans ultimately come from.



[quote]yrger · 80-89, M

@DocSavage

Still you have not explained where you came from ultimately, because your stock of knowledge is depleted.[/quote]

[quote]DocSavage · M
To: yrge/chunkhead

[b][i]No we don’t[/i][/b][/quote][/quote]
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


Don't play dummies, if you think you can get away with feigning ignoramuses, best you live among cattle, and donkeys, and frogs.




Hi all ye atheists (including anyone else not vocally an atheist but with an atheistic attitude), did your mother love you, or you love your mother, or best there has always been love between mother and child.

Think on this ancient verity:
"Of who the mother, there can't be no doubt, of the father nothing certain."

Think about that.


PS to Doc, tihs - hahahaha, his favorite diet.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] Don't play dummies, if you think you can get away with feigning ignoramuses,[/quote]
Yeah, you’re right. No way we could fool the real thing. You truly are a real dumb ignoramuse.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


You newjaninev2 say "The Big Bang was the beginning of expansion of a universe that already existed.
Now ignore that simple reality and go back to your deluded rantings."

I ask you newjaninev2, ultimately what being created the universe, or you claim that the universe created itself from nothing?
DocSavage · M
@yrger [c=359E00]/chunkhead[/c]
Atheist to theist, answer this simple question : Assume for the moment that there is no god, it’s all myth.
Is the universe, with all its infinite wonder and life any less incredible ?
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [b]if you claim a being created the universe - what created that being?[/b]

can't answer, huh?

Nothing to say?

Try answering a question with a direct answer for once.

[b]if you claim a being created the universe - what created that being?[/b]
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger So much for your unsupported and unnecessary postulations about a god
yrger · 80-89, M
Okay, hi atheists, let you and I talk about the finding by scienstists that the material-physical universe has a beginning.

From me:
This breakthrough idea later became known as the Big Bang! The Big Bang was the moment 13.8 billion years ago when the universe [i][b]began*[/b][/i] as a tiny, dense, fireball that exploded. Most astronomers use the Big Bang theory to explain how the [b][i]universe began[/i][/b].

Cfr. do scientists state that the universe has a beginning
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=do+scientists+state+that+the+universe+has+a+beginning


Okay, atheists, it's your turn to cite texts indicating scientists state the universe has no beginning.



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2
[quote] newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
Your acceptance of atheism is, at least , a sign of progress.[/quote]

I am wondering how you can congratulate me that I have accepted atheism, I have not and will never accept atheism. You must be self-deluding.

Present to me verbatim my any post where I declare that I have accepted atheism. I am Yrger the theist in every thread I have authored and will author.




@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia

To you all atheists, please explain how and why the material-physical universe with stars and galaxies etc are working according to regular order, without the creator God having made them and operates them according to a most regular order.
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists here and all humans with reason and intelligence, don't ask me questions, just make your categorical statements in less than 50 words, on your position with regard to the existence of the God of nature.

My position is that the God of nature exists, and here is my definition of God:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."

@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis
DocSavage · M
[@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]


Reminder from your last thread, when [b]you[/b] asked me who created god. And I answered it correctly. Look familiar?

Not answering anymore of your questions chunkhead. We already said creation without any god “ultimately” nature or super nature.
You also admitted that things and people can exist independently of god. So we don’t need a permanent god to have continued existence. You got nothing. If god did create time and space, then you are a waste of both.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
You say (on the basis of nothing except intellectual laziness) that your gods don't need a beginning.

If that assumption is in any way valid, then it's equally valid to assume that the universe didn't need a beginning.

In which case, there's no compelling necessity to even postulate the existence of gods. The entire postulation becomes unnecessary, and can be dispensed with.

So much for your gods.

[b]So, now that you have abandoned your gods, why are you still here trying to be noticed?[/b]
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia


Please pay the most focused attention to the text below in [b]bold[/b] and [i]italic[/i].

From Yrger the theist:
Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words [b][i]tell me what is your concept of God?[/i][/b]
I strongly disagree. To believe in a super-intelligence requires switching off our own intelligence. it's a 'don't think, just believe' kind of proposition. Sure, there are many arguments of the illogical and spurious sort. They don't impress me much.
yrger · 80-89, M
@HollyW Still you have not explained where you came from ultimately, because your stock of knowledge is depleted.
DocSavage · M
yrge/chunkhead
No we don’t
@yrger Your conclusion about me isn't based in reason. I know much more than you do. The conclusion of psychology is that you dwell at the Folly marker. I dwell at the Justice marker and most of your antagonists dwell at the Doubt marker.
yrger · 80-89, M
@basilfawlty89

Where did I say that God is male?



basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@yrger horseshit. Show me how you arrived at those so called axioms. To be cognitive and conscious is to question. To blindly accept is stupidity. What makes you think your God, and not the Muslim, Hindu or Shinto God is the correct one? [b][i]How do you know God is male?[/i][/b] How do you know there are multiple deities.

Show it here with empirical evidence.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] Where did I say that God is male[/quote]
Because female gods are called goddesses. Chunkhead , duh.
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2

Hi Newj, you ask me, "If you claim a being created the universe - what created that being?"

Let me see if you do serious thinking instead of vacuous words-crafting.

Here, you must have an answer of sorts to your own question addessed to me, otherwise we will never get to arrive at the answer that we should accept to be correct, according to serious thinking, instead of your vacuous words-crafting.

Let me now read your reaction.




@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW




[quote] newjaninev2 · 51-55, F

@yrger
You are asking me what is the meaning of the word, ultimately

No, I'm not

I'm not asking you any such thing

Why are you trying to answer a question I haven't asked you?

Here's the question I have been asking you

[b][i]If you claim a being created the universe - what created that being?
[/i][/b]
I keep asking you that simple question... and you keep running away and hiding

Are you that frightened of me?

Seriously?

This is farcical.
[/quote]
DocSavage · M
[quote] “Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see [/quote]

Before you follow Hawkin’s advice, you need to do one thing. [c=009E4F]@yrger/chunkhead[/c] change your point of view.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


Hi all ye atheists (including anyone else not vocally an atheist but with an atheistic attitude), did your mother love you, or you love your mother, or best there has always been love between mother and child.

Think on this ancient verity:
"Of who the mother, there can't be no doubt, of the father nothing certain."

Think about that.


PS to Doc, tihs - hahahaha, his favorite diet.
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [b]an atheistic attitude[/b]

What's an 'atheistic attitude'?

and what's the point of what you just posted?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


Hi Doc and Hi newj, I tell you two and all atheists that it is ultimately God Who created everything that is not existing independently.





DocSavage · M
@newjaninev2 carefull
Last post, he asked me who created god, I answered it, he then told me to go jump in the lake, and stop messing with his thread.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

Hi Doc, are you claiming that ultimately humans came from nothingness, yes or no?



@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]
[quote] God Who created everything that is not existing independently. [/quote]
[b]SO, YOU NOW CLAIM THAT THINGS AND PEOPLE EXIST INDEPENDENT OF GOD [/b]
that’s twice you fucked it up. The universe “ultimately” doesn’t need a creator. It’s self existing. No god of any kind . We win - you lose.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW


Hi atheists here, I don't seem to read any reply from you all to my latest post.

Anyway, tell me, what is your ultimate explanation of how and why we humans are existing.


If you Doc had replied to my latest post, please write now and indicate that you are aswering my latest post, cite my latest post and re-act to the substance of my latest post, okay?
@yrger How humans are existing: I assume you meant what the origin of life is. Life developed from abiotic precursors that gained in complexity through natural selection, as the structures that were able to self-replicate did so and perpetuated themselves.

There is no reason why humans exist. Or we exist for whatever reason works best for you. All value judgments originate with us.
yrger · 80-89, M
I am Yrger the theist and here is my definition of the God of nature:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."


@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

Here is my definition of the God of nature:
"The God (of nature) is the permanent self-existent spirit creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient in nature."
yrger · 80-89, M
Please pay the most focused attention to the text below in [b]bold[/b] and [i]italic[/i].

From Yrger the theist:
Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words tell me [b][i]what is your concept of God?[/i][/b]

@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia
Mithraia · 31-35, M
@yrger You keep repeating yourself over and over again. I'm done with you.
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2

Hi everyone, I am Yrger author of this thread, and I am addressing newj.


Please rewrite your post below, and express only one point the most important in your mind. As the post stands, you are incoherent.

[quote] newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger You are unable to comprehend that the Big bang was not the beginning of the universe, but rather the beginning of the expansion of the universe.

Ask yourself... what was going 'bang'?

As there is no known 'beginning' to the universe, there is no compelling necessity to postulate gods.

You accept that as a reasoned conclusion, because you have not argued against it.

therefore... atheist

You are unable to respond in any reasoned or germane manner to my statements that:

1. there's no proof that gods exist
2. there's no proof that gods don't exist
3. in any event, there’s no compelling necessity to even postulate gods, and, in any event, the postulation explains nothing (not even itself)... it merely tries to explain everything away.
4. therefore, I have no gods (I’m an agnostic atheist)

therefore... atheist.

Apparently anything and everything can be a god, so it follows that gods are indistinguishable from everything else, and their existence cannot be discerned, so there is no reason to even consider such a postulation

therefore... atheist.

I congratulate you on the efficient way you have used your claims of theism to destroy theism and thereby advance your atheism[/quote]


@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia



You all atheists are incoherent with your thinking manner, let me see if you can express what you think you understand in this text from Stephen Hawking:

[quote]“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don't just give up.”
― Stephen Hawking[/quote]
yrger · 80-89, M
Hi atheists, why are you all not taking notice of this thread started by me Yrger, I am the theist here.

At the beginning I thought that I noticed more than a hundred replies were made (by atheists?).

Then all replies disappeared.

What happened?

Perhaps the Similar Worlds personnel can tell me, what is happening - I am at a loss.
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=009E4F]/chunkhead[/c]

Maybe, you should stop repeating the same old shit. I said you’re getting boring. Atheist love to take shots at theists , but we’re fair, we prefer to go after someone in our class.
You have no class.
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage


Well, I am now sure, Doc, that you are a coward.


================

DocSavage · M
@yrger/chunkhead
[quote]So, Doc, let you tell me what and how to prove something exists[/quote]

No. You’re a troll. You simply change the context when you can not validate your claim with any evidence. You fall back on “ultimate”
As I stated before, god are manufactured so humans can break their own rules of logic. In short, gods are by nature lies.
CorvusBlackthorne · 46-50, M
@yrger Projecting again?
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia


Okay atheists, you deny that there is a primordial reality from which all posterior beings came from.

That ultimately explains why we humans are existing today.

What is your alternative to this primordia reality from which all posterior beings owe their existence?
newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger [quote]you deny that there is a primordial reality[/quote]

What does this mean?

'Primordial reality'?? Utter tosh.

Stop trying to use purple prose to obscure the complete lack of substance in your pronouncements.

In fact, stop making pronouncements altogether!

[b]Say what you wish to say... say it simply, plainly, and directly.[/b]

Then stay in the thread where you say it ([i]i.e.[/i] use the 'reply' button) because every time you run away you become more and more irrelevant to anything.
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2 yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia


Addressing all atheists and also everybody else, I am Yrger the theist and author of the present thread.

I hope to get to know what kind of a world-view atheists have, including everyone else who do have a world-view that is positive or negative in effect toward God.

The God of concern is first before anything else the creator of everything that is not Himself.

My impression is that atheists are in the whole totally hostile emotionally against any world-view where God the creator has an indispensable presence.

Why are they so emotionally hostile to God?

So, hi atheists, why are you so emotionally hostile against God?
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2


Let's not talk about you being perverted, unless you are into another evasion.

I was thinking that you and I will engage on the issue that ultimately God exists is the only option that the natural reason and intelligence of humans dictates.



==================

newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger Incidentally who you think you are to call me perverted?
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2

First we must concur on how to prove something exists.

So, you demand proof, you must know how to prove something exists.

Tell me, okay!?



newjaninev2 · 51-55, F
@yrger and yet we never see the explanation you claim to have.

I'm starting to think that maybe you're a common, garden-variety, stock-standard, liar.
yrger · 80-89, M
@CorvusBlackthorne

Where have you been?


See if you can explain or not why ultimately there is a self-existent being in the realm of reality.

If you are so timid to think on that, then see if you can think over this statement:

The default status of reality is existence, yes or no.




CorvusBlackthorne · 46-50, M
@yrger Projecting again?
yrger · 80-89, M
@newjaninev2

Please explain where you ultimately came from, and don't hide under the bed with "I don't know." That means in effect you should not be in a forum.

And also don't ask me instead of answering me, asking me a question in order to evade the issue where you ultimately come from.

I tell you for myself the theist here, ultimately I came from God.



@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis
yrger · 80-89, M
@DocSavage

@newjaninev2

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Emosaur

@LeopoldBloom

@HollyW

@TheoreticSkeptic

@Thodsis

@Mithraia

Hi atheists and everybody else whether atheists or not but who is rational and intelligent but negative toward the existence of God, would it be possible for me Yrger the theist here to ask you all guys to in not more than 50 words tell me what is your concept of God?
DocSavage · M
@yrger[c=359E00]/chunkhead[/c]
You still haven’t answered the question I put to you.
Assume for the moment, that there is no god.
Is the universe any the less amazing without it ?
What does god give, that we don’t already have ?

 
Post Comment
 
861 people following
Atheism
Personal Stories, Advice, and Support
New Post
Beliefs Health Pet Peeves Politics Religion
Associated Forums Topic Members