@CookieLuvsBunny You do know who those guys were right? Too funny that you would cite them as any kind of expert. Now have you heard of the Septuagint?
@GodSpeed63 We're praising the our Creator, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course. Unless you can prove Quob doesn't live, you better get used to having Quob around. R'amen.
I continue to suspect you didn't take the time to try to understand it and any time you MIGHT have spent with it was in a haste to disprove it. With that attitude, you can convince yourself the earth is flat.
I had a similar discussion with a woman on EP who was a Christian preacher in training. After she learned that I was the son of a pentecostal preacher man and was taught (indoctrinated) with Christianity, she was amazed that I had rejected it. I told her that I rejected it BECAUSE I learned so much about it. Interestingly, a short while after that, she was banned for spamming. 🙂
Because it's faith and coming from a devout Christian to an atheist means either your faith weren't strong enough or you never believed in the first place?
I am a Christian, and if I met you in real life I'd just be like, "okay, you do you." For me, my experiences in the past and my own experience with God is what is the foundation of my faith. It is not dependent on another's experience. So yeah, you do you. And I'll keep what's most important to me- my faith :)
It's essential for keeping their carefully-constructed house of cards from falling. 'Real Christians' have experienced God, and if you've experienced God you would never leave the faith. Therefore if you leave the faith, you must not have ever really believed in the first place. It's circular reasoning that says more about who they are than who you are. I had the same reaction from people when I finally accepted that I am queer.
I believe this is one of those topics that will never have a definitive answer, nor one that will make everyone happy. I found humor in your question...mainly because with a little word swap it's the same conundrum with different types of people.
Why are christians so desperate to deny those who became Atheists were ever christians?
or
Why are athiests so desperate to deny those who became christians were ever athiests?
@suzie1960 You haven't offered reasoned argument from the get go. You rest on weary bromides like 'evolution explains' when in fact there is no scientific evidence to back up your assertion. You read a book in high school and think your know something when it is painfully obvious you are a flat earther and a science denier. Kind of sad.
@suzie1960 Funny how you never provide anything beyond your uninformed opinion. Unfortunately your are not informed enough to realize you should keep uninformed opinions to yourself. Maybe they never told you that in dish washing school? How many years did it take you to graduate?
Lightening conductors on church roofs......... WHY?
I think you mean "lightning rods"...the rods are meant to give atmospheric charges an easy path to ground, not make their local area lighter ("lightening").
Since part of creation is electromagnetism, lightning is a natural phenomenon...we don't think it is caused by Thor...
I guess you wonder why believers would think they would need lightning rods, bc God shouldn't strike their church with lightning...? I don't know what others believe, but I do NOT think God acts with lightning as Nixon did with airstrikes in Viet Nam (personally choosing targets).
I guess you should also fault believers for having windows, doors, roofs, heating/air conditioning, because you think God should just keep all weather--a natural consequence of His laws--away from each church of true believers...?
@GodSpeed63 There is plenty of evidence to support The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. @newjaninev2 has posted some of it.
We're still waiting for you to present your evidence. Just saying you have isn't the same as actually doing it. The only logical conclusion is that you don't have any and you're just whistling in the wind.
In the UK, we say "lightning conductors", just a different term for the same thing.
The point is, this "god" thing is supposed to be master of all so why would it strike its own house with lightning? If it did choose to do so (because it works in mysterious ways), true christians ought not attempt to thwart its plans by installing lightning conductors/rods.
I think that if they accept you were Christian, that gives validity to your departure... and they cannot cope with that idea.. that their belief may be a load of BS
@suzie1960Yes, the main difference was that for pagans their Gods and Goddesses were everywhere and accessible to anyone. With Christians you had to find them through the church and the priests and had you had to obey and be judged and could be denied heaven.
@suzie1960 yes, charged people to see holy relics, a nail, splinter from the cross, a saints finger bone. You could be absolved of sin for a hefty contribution to the church.
I am sure lots of people will tell me I am talking nonsense but... I think that our faith, our spirituality is something only to do with us. It's personal. There are always people who will tell us to do this or that. Undoubtedly some of those will be Christians, either doing what they believe in or just doing what they want to do. The point is we don't have to do what they say.
@ShadowSister Obviously not because few people are purists in their belief system. You can have a broad spectrum of beliefs within a particular belief system. However one needs to be aware of the products of the belief system. You will find a similarities in every country that is majority Buddhist. That is very different than what you find in a muslim country or a Christian nation or an atheist nation. You really want to live in a Christian country. You really don't want to live in an atheist country or a muslim country or a buddhist country.
One observation that I have made here on SW is that Christians are much more rude, obnoxious and arrogant than atheists... just sayin'.... ... not ALL Christians, though, just a predominance...
I want to say a few things in response. It is very important that you know I think a person should be able to represent feel believe whatever they would like. Even if I do not agree I can respect a person and see them for more than just one dimension of their personality and character. I would like to look at this as a human thing not a Christian thing. It is human nature when someone is part of a group that has deep beliefs rituals traditions and they later decide to exit that group. The people that remain in the group are going to feel betrayed and angry. They feel like they shared something significant with a person who no longer values what they value. As humans when we are hurt or disappointed what do we do? We attempt to minimize the person that hurt our feelings. By making them the problem or their actions less significant it allows humans, the people still left in a group to focus on everything other than the reason the person truly left the group. So to sum it up the people you once practiced your faith with feel betrayed and abandoned so they are going to mistreat you, attack your character. The deeper question that you should ask is why does it matter what people think of you? What makes you seek acceptance from the people you choose to separate yourself from? It is OK for you to believe whatever you want however it is very wrong and unreasonable for you to expect people to be happy with your new choice. They are truly behaving like any human being would if they felt those same feelings.
@kodiac I agree with you I want to gain I cannot speak for all of those who behave poorly. I hope that you will always understand that I will never treat you that way. Have a great day
@suzie1960 I want to be very clear I cannot speak for the behaviors of others I can only tell you what I understand or what I don't understand. I do not know where you live or how old you are so I am not sure what you have experienced. I can only speak from what I have experienced. Sometimes we get so caught up or wanting to debate and prove our point that we do not take time to understand the intent and motivation of a message. I think if you read any post that I have posted regarding this subject I have never judged I have never pointed the finger and I have never been disrespectful. You do not know what my religious affiliation is. I am simply stating what I have observed.
I wish to understand the motivation behind your comment. Are you trying to prove that some people have been unfair cruel or not polite? We already established that. When you take a quote from somebody and then you say that is not the case it almost seems like you are attacking their statement. Then you say let's change one word. It does not make sense what you are trying to say.
I understand that most people want to categorize others and put them in a group. I am not trying to do that I realize tha people act poorly not just a certain group of people. By putting that title or categorizing them it almost seems like you make the whole entire group a certain way. So in conclusion is someone acted poorly towards friends of yours that is unfortunate. It should not be tolerated and it was disrespectful. I am still curious how that makes my statement or my previous post not valid or true?
I agree with you for the most part and was raised catholic. However I do believe there is some sort of God but not the old gray beard type in the sky. I more that we all make up god as whole that is some sort of master entity that controls everything but we just messed ourselves up over time. I like the scientific approach, we have something in us (an energy) that is our basic what is referred to as a soul since it is energy as in physics, energy cannot be created nor destroyed it only can change.
Now that you are free of concerns from the claims of organized religion....you have liberated an enormous amount of time and energy to devote to being a good person, filled with your own style of compassionate spirituality.
Now that the temples of dogma have tumbled...arise sister...make better the lives of others around you, even if it's just a kind word or smile, without concern of their fears or attachments.
I don't deny it at all. God speaks of those people in the Bible, they are called Reprobates. All the evidence was there, they understand it and rejected it. When that happens God then rejects that person. That is what a Reprobate is. They have no hope, their end is to be destroyed and they know it.
It comes from the fundamentalist notion that adhering to a Christian confession is the natural state of being human. It is part of our design.
So one either believes or one has rejected the fundamental design of reality. It is sort of like watching the world and denying Newton's laws. If someone says they believed in Newton's laws and then stopped believing in gravity-- we'd say they never understood it to begin with.
Like that.
Islam has a similar notion. One doesn't "convert" one "reverts". We revert back to our natural order of submission to Allah.
Of course there are other vantage points that don't hold that.
It's possible for you to have read the Bible and not believe. You know the parable of the sower? One seed fell on the wayside and the birds of the air came and devoured it. I was in your shoes once upon a time but I couldn't find rest so I went back to God and the second time He revealed Himself to me. Now I see Him at work everywhere I look
Christians are those called by Yahweh to be children of Yahweh. We are all born with an innate sense of God but as we grow older our fallen nature deprives us of that Truth and we deny His very existence. Until we are called and become His by His choice.
When you have been indoctrinated into a cult that reinforces a belief that everything which exists is due to some supreme being, the realization that this being is a fabrication calls into everything you know and understand.
It's unfathomable for some people.
Just let it go. Someone else's opinion of you needn't be your business.
It's all about heart knowledge, not head knowledge. You've never had a love for God, Yahweh, in the first place. All you had was the so called 'intellectual' interest in Him. God wanted your heart, not your head.
@GodSpeed63 You're avoiding the question as usual. Why are you so desperate to deny I was a christian? Simply claiming I wasn't when I know very well I was, merely highlights your desperation thus proving my point.
@GodSpeed63 The question is, "Why are christians so desperate to deny those who became Atheists were ever christians?" You've demonstrated that desperation many times but you have never answered the question by explaining why.
That's how I was taught to read the scriptures. You have to be open and prey for help and understanding. Did you not feel any comfort or warmth while reading the bible?
There are few things more frustrating than when people intentionally distort the meanings of words.
“Believe” in the context of religion requires faith.
“Believe” in the context of science requires evidence. In science, we may hypothesize about something and if our validation efforts pass, we may end up with a theory.
“Believe” in this context is roughly equivalent to having a preponderance of evidence to support something.
When something is not believed, it is NOT a lack of faith. There is simply not sufficient evidence.
@Theseus What do you mean by "the creator of the universe"? The Flying Spaghetti Monster perhaps? There is no evidence I'm aware of that such a being exists but I admit I can't prove Quob doesn't.
I think you're right. It does stem from fear. They don't want to believe that them or theirs (who they know are true christians) could turn away and become atheists.
It's the same impulse when you hear about a car accident for example. You look for reasons why you wouldn't have been, couldn't be in an accident like that.
They want to keep believing that they're the "smartest", also they're scared that they'll look stupid. They've spent all their lives believing in a stupid book, praying, going to church (maybe), etc., that finding out they've been wasting their time on something so pointless and pathetic truly scares them.
@AnonymousJSS Why do you doubt that? I think a lot of people forget about the moral truths because they’re so focused on whether or not it’s historically and scientifically true, but I think most people of other religions or of “no religion” would acknowledge that the Bible is a book of morality.
@JP1119 Its supposed to be about morality, unfortunately it has a lot of other bs in it that outweigh that LOL. Whoever wrote it didn't try hard enough.
One of the magic elements of Christianity is all the stories of those who question their faith and are welcomed home when they “repent”. It’s how people are kept within the flock.
But, in modern times, this rings hollow and many people experience a degree of cognitive dissonance.
In short: if they accept your past as a Christian, they must also face the possibility that they themselves will also question their own beliefs.
Something to think about; Jesus taught a very strict form of the Hebrew religion, it makes no sense at all why there is a Christian religion (actually all Catholics) that teaches it is "the one true religion". Humans want to not let go of their physical wealth and being so had to come up with a way to justify keeping it. Both Catholics and Jehovah witnesses say we are going to be raised up from the dead at the end of the world. Personally I would rather not be raised up from the dead as I9 will probably look like shit and smell even worse.
@acpguy before jesus there was no after life in the jewish religion. now it comes down to was jesus telling the truth? were the disciples telling the truth about what happened? did the miracles happen as described or not?? the dead sea scrolls were written down less then 100 years later. locking in what the reports had said to that point. becoming a check on the bible that was written again and again centuries later. so if there was a lie it had to be from jesus and his disciples. or the writers of new testament with the lifetimes of people that knew jesus and the disciples. that is where fraud would have to have happened. no real independent record other then that jesus existed in Pontius Pilates journal. if that was even his journal and not a forgery written later on. the old testament is so old its likely just collection of various fables that were passed down many generations before being written down. then we have the near death experiences. are they really look at a after life. or just a drug trip our brain goes on when dying. some drugs induce the same experience. then you have various guests on coast to coast am. are they telling the truth or lying. 😺
@suzie1960 I find it ironic in the extreme that those who believe don't actually know how belief works. They many claim it is a choice but that is stupid. To believe in something you have to be convinced it is true. You can't just choose to believe or not believe. A fundamentalist can't choose not to be one unless convinced and another person can't believe in God by choice. Also I hate the word faith. It should actually be translated as trust because that is what it means in the contexts. People use the word faith like it is some type of currency or magic mana system that you can store up enough to do things. But even Jesus rejected this idea with the mustard seed parable. In that story he is saying that you can move literal mountains (do the impossible) if you have faith (trust in God). So it is not your faith that you can cash in to move them but your trust that God will move them for you. You are not doing the impossible because you have magic faith but because you are trusting in God to use his magic.
I find it ironic in the extreme that those who believe don't actually know how belief works.
Really?
To believe in something you have to be convinced it is true.
You got that right so far. Belief follows truth.
You can't just choose to believe or not believe.
You seem to be doing that very well.
A fundamentalist can't choose not to be one unless convinced and another person can't believe in God by choice.
You're partially right. God, Yahweh, has revealed Himself to mankind, the evidence of His work is all around us. Yet, He gives us the freedom to choose to believe the truth, that He does live, or believe the lie, that He doesn't live.
I think they are scared big time that if the bible is nothing more then myths and made up stuff then there is no after life and they are gone when they are dead. 😺
There are always those in every group (using the term loosely) that are closer to the extreme. Just keep on going with your life. Whether you go back to the faith (or any faith) or not is up to you. Anyone who can't accept it are hypocrites. If they won't even attempt to collect information from you to try to understand your reasoning (regardless of their own) then they're big fat hypocrites. Leave them in the dust.
I've known devout Christians who are way more level headed than those radicals. Their reaction is to accept it and move on. It's not like you're going on a crusade to slay kittens.
Didn't study the Bible "enough"? I'm so sorry for not thinking exactly like you! It's my fault I'm different and for processing information in my own way which can lead me to different conclusions that you may not agree with and react negatively to!
Sometimes, no matter what information is presented, someone will deviate. It is inevitable. It doesn't make you good or bad, right or wrong. You're human. This is within normal parameters.
From my reading of more of your personal history in the various replies, is it fair to say, @suzie1960, that you believed in God as you were taught, then--I am not sure if there was an event which triggered this or not...?--you began to study the Bible and found that it did not match what you had been told. As a result, you became...discouraged? bitter?...but you decided that the Bible was nought but a hodgepodge of inconsistencies, and so you gave up on it and are now asserting atheism?
@SomeMichGuy Not entirely accurate. I was brought up nominally as a christian, much like most British people at the time. In my teens I got taken in by christian propaganda and became more of a practising christian. As such, I studied the bible believing it to be "the word of god".
My studies showed that, not only did the bible not match with what I'd been told, it wasn't even internally consistent. It also became obvious, from wider study, that almost everything in christianity had been copied from older belief systems. I found the older (Pagan) were more scientific in that they were based on observing nature. When christians tried to copy the Pagan systems, they did so without understanding the basics so, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed it all up.
As a result of what I found, I broke away from christianity. That's when I found the christians I had thought of as friends were not "all sweetness and light". On the contrary, they were among the most arrogant, evil creatures one could ever have the misfortune to encounter. I was subjected to abuse, threats and even physical violence. That really only convinced I was doing the right thing ans I did, eventually, break free.
I'm an Atheist in that I do not believe in gods. That said, I do like the Pagan view of them.
SW-User
See, where I say I'm agnostic and don't have to go over these meanings, wondering why people get lost on them, and I will assure you that doesn't mean I don't care, or love, just only I measured somewhere my love can not be measured by a metronome or how anyone describes love.
I rejected religion because it is based on nothing, or faith as a lot of people like to call it. If The Bible was truly the book of a religious group with a proven god, I'm afraid that war, murder, looting, rape and treating women as objects are not the characteristics of an organisation I would join.
@MarmeeMarch I'm glad that you do not feel the need to prostlatize, but I think you have the wrong idea about what an atheist is.
prove to me that he does not exist.
Believing god does not exist is not what makes someone an atheist. It's the lack of the belief in a god or gods. It may sound the same but its not. As an atheist, I find no convincing evidence that a god exists. The claim is that there is no good reason to believe in any god, let alone the Christian god. It's a rejection of a claim that a god exists, not a claim that one does not exist. As you pointed out, there is no way to prove that there is not a god. Making such a claim is just as silly to me as claiming there is a god. Neither position has any convincing evidence, nor as far as I can tell, even could have any kind of verifiable evidence.
I've noticed that some people, whether theist or not, think one can't be Atheist unless they have read the Bible(s).
It's not the reading of the Word of God that makes one a skeptic, no such people that are atheists, it's the misinterpretation of it that makes one a skeptic.
