@whowasthatmaskedman It sounds like you're saying essential services should be publicly owned, but other businesses shouldn't be, unless there's a special circumstance that calls for it.

I would gladly take that, but keep in mind that even under this system, a lot of workers would be exploited in businesses that we'd consider non-essential. We can offset this by enacting pro-union regulation, and only giving subsidies to companies that have a co-op model, which is proven to be more profitable anyway. The results of all this would be a country where the public owns the essential means of production, non-essential corporations are owned by the people who work there, and the remaining companies would at least have strong unions. At that point, we'd have Socialism.

@BohemianBabe To coin a phrase I suppose thats "near enough for jazz".. The thing is that the American perspective seems to be the workers V the corporations. And thats just not how the system is meant to work. It is supposed to be a three cornered contest. Capital pays the workers to produce. the Unions negotiate and keep the workers safe and protected.. (anf heres the kicker) The government regulates what the companies are allowed to do and collects taxes from them (as well as taxing the workers) and sees to the provision of roads, water and other services where housing is needed and other services like schools. These are the things with no immediate profit margin. But which add value to the community and provide services to the businesses too. These things are called "Public goods" and the government can contract out the building and the provision. But sees to it they are put where they are needed.. Not just where they are profitable..

@Zaphod42 True but you have to remember no one in the world thought it was bad or knew what long term exposure would do. Once it was known it was corrected or stopped.

@Zaphod42 exactly. And regulation got us things such as electronic ignition, airbags, and fuel injection in cars.

@trollslayer he’s using the threat to get them to do what he wants at the border . He needs their help to achieve his border goals . Threatening them this way is 1 way of going about it . Probably not the best way .

@SomeMichGuy this. If we were getting “screwed” by everyone else, why are we the biggest economy in the world?

@AthrillatheHunt I was just pointing out where the totalitarianism can be found in 2025. I still consider totalitarianism a pretty bad thing, the democrats don't even close to what the republican party represents as a thread to someones personal freedom. Neither does the democratic party need to scapegoat entire parts of it's civilisation for their own personal gain. I would vote for a potplant, if it keeps the contemporary republican party out of office. If you don't get that, you either love authoritarianism, bigotry and xenophobic behavior or you are delusional.

@Kwek00 Awww, did they ban books? Mind telling us exactly what books they banned that gave you the sads?

@Ferise1 funny that— i was actually a leftist, initially, until my PrEfRoNtAl cOrTeX beCaMe DeVeLoPeD (25ish)

@thrash Not sure what you mean by "unfettered leftism".

What we have now is not conservatism, but extreme, fringe right of white supremacist-brand fascism.

You can tell this is so when Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney are seen as "too liberal" for the region of the political spectrum in which the Republican party now finds itself.

@Kwek00 so what are they against?

@Kwek00 warned that system, done feeding

@Ferise1 Not free enterprise... The only thing you can really hammer on, is their description of freedom.

You practically have 3 big types of liberals, and even in those 3 brackets you have nuances.

Classical liberals, what is/used to be the big center. Which are your Adam Smith, John Locke, Milton Friedman type of people. They ussually are progressive when it comes to individual freedom. But their economic policy is capitalism with a nightwatcher state. Pretty much a small governement that protects individuals negative freedoms. They ussually support the employer over the laborer in economic descisions and keep taxes down. They are not a big fan of redistribution.

Conservative liberals, which is the right wing of liberalism. An example of that, would be Friedrich Hayeck. They are ussually conservative when it comes to social issues, however they do believe that if enough people are ready for progress, progress needs to be allowed. They ussually stop progressive laws, untill they don't have the votes to do it any longer. Then they accept the new paradigm and get over the issue. They aren't reactionairy and are not trying to turn back the clock. For their economic policies, they adopt the same policies as the classical liberal.

Progressive liberals, which are left from the center. These are your John Stewart Mill and John Rawls types. They allign on the progressive social issues with classical liberals. In the economy and in peoples daily life, they believe in positive liberty. This concept is often denied by the other two factions. For a progressive liberal, it's not enough to be free to do a certain thing, you also need to be able to excercise your freedom. It's fine that you are free to take vacation, however, if you can't afford it that negative freedom just ain't enough. These people ussually are in favor of using the state to create regulations and redistribution. Making sure that you can live your old age, and don't have to be in bed due the consequences of your work AND the fact that the market didn't pay you enough so you aren't able to actually do anything when you are on a pension (for example).

All 3 factions believe in free enterprise, but the progressive side believes that you need to be free in the negative and positive sense of the concept.

@BohemianBabe Have your mom bring you down more Kool-Aid BooBoo

@ron122 I have your mom doing that. 😉

@BohemianBabe huh

@emiliya i’ve studied both sides and we need both to move forward.

@Ferise1 I once believed I was moderate. Haha

@emiliya can you tell me more? Is being a moderate a bad thing?

@YoMomma well they’ve done a lot over the years. They’ve raised salaries diminished work hours and gave us the weekend.

@Ferise1 i think you give them too much credit because forcing raised salaries raises inflation which makes the money less valuable making the raise almost useless .. i’m sure people had weekends before them 😅

@YoMomma well let’s ask ChatGPT😊

The political left has played a major historical role in securing and expanding workers’ rights around the world. While contributions vary by country and time period, here are the main things the left (including socialists, communists, social democrats, trade unionists, and labor parties) have done for workers’ rights:

🔧 Key Achievements of the Left for Workers’ Rights

1. The 8-Hour Workday and the Weekend

• The left, especially early labor movements and socialist groups in the 19th and 20th centuries, fought for and won the 8-hour workday and the two-day weekend.
• The slogan “Eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for what we will” came from labor activists.

2. Trade Union Rights

• Leftist parties and labor movements helped legalize trade unions, giving workers the right to organize, collectively bargain, and strike.
• They also pushed for union protections in law to prevent employer retaliation.

3. Minimum Wage Laws

• The idea of a minimum wage to guarantee a baseline of dignity in pay was championed by left-wing and labor parties.
• These movements often continue to fight for living wages instead of just minimums.

4. Child Labor Bans

• The left played a crucial role in banning child labor during the industrial era, often against fierce opposition from industrial capitalists.

5. Workplace Safety and Health Regulations

• Socialist and labor parties pushed for health and safety laws to protect workers in dangerous industries (mines, factories, construction, etc.).

6. Unemployment Insurance and Social Security

• Many welfare programs, including unemployment insurance, pensions, and disability coverage, were initiated or expanded by left-wing governments.

7. Paid Sick Leave, Parental Leave, and Vacation

• Paid time off for illness, childbirth, and annual leave are direct results of left-wing pressure and legislation in many countries.

8. Anti-Discrimination Laws

• Leftist movements have worked to reduce racial, gender, and other forms of workplace discrimination.
• They helped establish equal pay laws and gender protections in hiring and promotion.

9. Protection Against Unjust Firing

• “Just cause” protections in employment and severance rights often stem from union contracts or left-led labor reforms.

10. Expansion of Public Sector Employment

• The left often supports public job programs during economic crises (like the New Deal in the U.S.) and promotes public ownership of certain services to ensure decent wages and conditions.

🏛 Historical Examples

• United Kingdom: The Labour Party created the National Health Service (NHS) and greatly expanded workers’ rights after WWII.
• United States: The New Deal (under FDR, pushed by labor and left-wing Democrats) gave rise to Social Security, labor protections, and job programs.
• France: The Popular Front government in the 1930s introduced paid vacations and the 40-hour workweek.
• Germany: Social Democrats and unions were critical in building the postwar welfare state and codetermination (worker representation on corporate boards).
• Latin America: Leftist governments (e.g. in Bolivia, Brazil under Lula, etc.) have often raised the minimum wage and expanded labor protections.

⚠ Ongoing Struggles

While the left achieved many things historically, the fight continues against:
• Gig economy exploitation
• Anti-union laws
• Wage stagnation
• Corporate lobbying to roll back protections

@Patriot96 what clap trap?

@Ferise1 Then tell him to stop lying!