[[b]This post refers to the [u]European[/u] left. It is unrelated to anything in America.[/b]]
In 1936, when General Franco's Catholic butchers terrorized Spain to establish a fascist tyranny, left-wing people from all over the world (including America, the Lincoln Battalion!) went to Spain, to fight against those brutes, and to help defeating fascism.
"Civilized" countries such as France and the UK did not provide those fighters with heavy armament, in order not to upset Hitler. The Spanish republic lost the war, as a result, but at least those left-wing men and women fought before they were defeated. They stood up against evil.
Today's leftists stink like rotten meat. They see those brave Ukrainians as NATO's useful idiots, they try everything in their might to prevent their governments from sending appropriate armament to Ukraine ("hey it's because we are so peaceful!", "Hey it's because Vladi has nukes!").
Today's left just licks the blood off of Putin's boots. [b]Putin's leftist poodles: You are disgusting. I despise you.[/b]
[sep] [center]
[/center] Bastille Storming – when the left was still willing to fight the tyrants. Foreground: Grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grandmother of helenS.
Trump literally spent the four years of his presidency praising Putin. His method and the outcome. How can you accuse the left of licking Putin's boots with a straight face?
@room101 Cheap Germany pay what your fair share don't lean on america
SW-User
No offence, but this is the kind of post a mentally ill person would make.
Let me remind you that no country in 1936, particularly Franco's Spain in 1936, had the nuclear bomb. Spain still has no nuclear weapons of its own. At present, Russia has 5,977 nuclear warheads...all of which could absolutely decimate Europe. Their longest range nuclear missile can reach 7,500 miles. They could also destroy the United States if they wanted to. Alaska certainly wouldn't be a problem, lol.
I think we should all be glad that people like you aren't in power.
Fwiw, most centre and centre right people were agnostic on the Spanish Civil War. From what I remember, British and American companies also provided weapons to Franco's armies and their governments did not stop that.
It's not a good analogy for the war in Ukraine. However, most leftists don't support Putin. A few do and they get called out by the rest of the left.
There are attempts to conflate anti-war people with supporters of Putin and this happens in every conflict (see Iraq and Afghanistan).
I support Ukraine in resisting Russia. Putin is an imperialist and I support the Ukrainians right to self determination. I support them getting arms from NATO top, even though NATO's hands are far from clean.
I want a negotiated peace to end the bloodshed and that would necessite compromise between NATO and Russia. My fear is that NATO is happy for the conflict to continue in order to damage a rival, with a cost paid in Ukrainian blood. With all the propeganda, it's simply impossible to know if this is viable option right now.
Yeah and if you had your way it could go to nuclear escalation. The days of just sending troops over are gone, it complicates everything. Getting people killed with nuclear strikes for principles isn't a trade that's worth it. Can't compare past conflicts to what's happening now, the context and consequences are much more dire.
@helenS Because I think it's the substrate of the population that doesn't really care about ideologies, only about who sells better crafted propaganda to them. Right now the most effective propaganda machines (social network pages and channels, TV channels, newspapers) are operated by the right, so that swinging block of voters are aligned at right.
@eMortal As opposed to the right you mean.....who are very much into conspiracy theorie, hero worshipping a traitor who wants to abolish the Constitution so he can name himself dictator....steals national security documents to sell...and thinks it would have been a great thing if his crew of stooges could have killed his own VP and as many lawmakers as they could have found.
Comparing the two....who fucks who seems like a no brainer choice of the two.
@anythingoes477 we’re not saying that. We’re just wishing the left was as passionate about ending the war in Ukraine as they are for sexual identities and gender roles.
@eMortal End it how? Walk off? What happens to the world supply Ukranian wheat and soy and corn production that is then taken over by Russia? What happens when Russia sees us knuckle under on Ukraine? Isn't that the green light to invade Poland too? And every other country along Russia's border that they choose? You have pretty zero thinking on the ramifications to global peace and the global economy to suggest walking away from Ukraine.
As far as fighting for the rights of others.......whether you like that or not........that is NOT fighting for who someone can screw. I't fighting to hold the line of eliminating the Constitutional rights of us all. When you let one right be taken away........how long is it before you lose another? The one "right" that you all guard with all you hold sacred is the right to kill others with military grade weapons. I was in the military. I know what those weapons do. I have seen who I killed later with one. They're not .22's........or deer rifles......they are a weapon to kill LOTS of people quickly. You just saw how the Gen X and Millenials feel about the GOP and their policies of "if we don't like it.....especially if you do...we'll take it away from you". The 2 generations that got the finger and "thoughts and prayers" after they had to duck in schools all over America for years to avoid being killed are sick of that crap.......and they showed in how they voted in the last 2 elections. And each year more of that age group will be voting age. In 8 years they will make up 65% of the voting public. When they find out they have a voice..........what "right" do you they think they will come after that you all love?
Instead of worrying about someone protecting a right of someone..............you should be concerning that we are losing rights as we speak and only party is doing that. So far the GOP has banned books..........taken away the EPA's ability to protect our air and drinking water......a woman's right to choose if she wants to be pregnant after being raped at 10 years old. And if you listen to EVERY SINGLE person in the GOP running for office their FIRST agenda is to kill Social Security and Medicare....and do away with the only source of healthcare that of in excess of 29 million Americans have.....the Affordable Care Act. In addition.......I'm a veteran so I know.......the GOP has successfully blocked 9 different bills to help care for our veterans in the last 10 years. You name it..............if it don't help a billionaire........it should be shit canned according to a Republican. For the last 26 years Republicans voted for their own pay raises......while saying the poor can live on less than $7 an hour. And if they can't--------they must be deadbeat welfare losers. Tell me..........what has the Right voted in that benefitted you in the last 3 decades?
If you want to focus on something real.........instead of a FOX "news" (choke) hot button phrase like "gay rights" to fire up the uneducated that they cater too..........worry about why no one on your side is fighting to do anything but take rights away from Americans? Tell me one instance of a Republican ever voting for something that GAVE you something you needed?? Or why no Republican in the last election........the last 3 elections......... has NEVER said what they would do to fix what is really actually wrong with America. All they say is Hunter's laptop top did...........Biden did it........Obama did it..........Hillary did it.........the Deep State did it (whatever that is?)......but none of yours says what "IT" is or how they would fix it. Blame don't fix America.........this last election showed Republican that dog has died. And if they have nothing more to show us now in the House other than "oh boy.............now we can investigate 20 more things on the tax payers dollar to get even for investigating a traitor"...........they'll find out again in 2024 America has enough of that.
FUN FACT..........In the U.S. the ONLY ones that have continuously voted in favor of increasing spending to provide weapons and armament to Ukrainians..........are the "left". On EVERY vote to increase or continue aid to Ukraine the right has stalled or voted against that measure. "Too much money"....."we can't afford to save those lives". Trump...from the "right".....calded Putin a "brilliant man" ...a "genius" the day he attacked an orphanage in Kiev resulting in almost 100 dead. He was the first to block aid and weapons and cyber help to stop the Russian backed insurgents from the Eastern two provinces of Ukraine from internal cyber attacks...before the war began.
If you can show how the "right" in America has done anything to lead the way against Putin........please do that.
@anythingoes477 Sorry I should have stated clearly that my post referred to the left in Europe. A left which is driven by their anti-Americanism to such an extent that they even prefer Putin's Russia. I'll edit my post accordingly.
I've been living in Barcelona for almost three years now. I'm currently re-reading Orwell's "Homage to Catalunya", he was one of the Brits that came here to fight against Franco and his fascists.
To be honest, the Left here in Spain were then, and are still now, their own worst enemies. They are fractious, disorganised and often act like petulant children. Reading Orwell and discussing the Spanish Civil War with some of the older Catalans that I've met, it seems pretty clear to me that the Spanish Left had as much to do with their defeat as did the lack of material support from their neighbours.
@room101 Thank you. 🌷 It's not been my intention to defend the state of the left in 1930s Spain. My point was that in the 30s the left was willing to fight against tyrants such as Franco or Mussolini. Now they lick Putin's boots. To me that's such a bankruptcy (disguised as pacifism) that I encounter difficulties seeing myself as a part of the left.
@helenS I understand and I'm sorry if my reply made it sound like I didn't get your intention. All I'm saying is that, even in the 1930's, the left (I've always been a Labour voter btw and grew up in a heavily socialist and communist family) were not always the fighters against fascism that they may appear to be.
Wow, wasn't aware of that in Europe. Leftists in Australia very different. It's the right wing conspiracy (which particular conspiracy? [i]'Legion, for we are many'[/i]) folk who side with Russia.
@Abstraction Right-wingers and a significant fraction of our lefties in many European countries are united in their anti-Americanism, which I think is the real reason why they side with Putin. [Actually they do not explicitely side with him (like, "Pution is a nice guy, I like him"), they are just against helping Ukraine to win this war.]
@helenS Like you I'm pretty sure - I'm well informed of the history of US foreign policy since WWII and have many bones to pick (don't get me started!) But I find the extreme left view closed-minded cynical to a point of over-simplifying. The truth is that in any government there is a mix of pragmatism and idealism. Not every decision is made purely for cold gain, but they will always calculate both gains/risks - hence they let many world sores fester.
left:right, fascist:communist, things are very confusing these days! the history in the US of conservatives:liberals is very confusing. The current republican party continues to confuse, they were staunchly anti-communists, until tRump dedicded he liked Putin, at the same time, the Cuban immigrants claim to be anti-communist, but pro tRump. I realize that Europeans have a different perspective, and that we, in the US, should not feel that we are the only important ones.
@samueltyler2 Thank you – yes, my post was written from a European perspective, and I was referring to the total moral bankruptcy of a significant part of the political left. Their enmity against America is more important to them than anything else.
The Spanish Civil War was a case where a country built an incredible self-sustaining society of communists and anarchists that fascists rose up to destroy. It was a very clear (for leftists) case of good vs evil and you could show up, fight for something amazing, and shoot fascists. I recommend reading Homage to Catalonia by Orwell.
Russia vs NATO is about different kinds of capitalists fighting over land. No leftist (who has a functioning brain) would support either side in this. I support the people of Ukraine as civilians caught in games of power not of their making. Some leftists support Russia. They're idiots who seem to think that "anti-American" means "anti-capitalist" and Russia is an extremely capitalist country.
Also you can't just show up and join. They ask for foreign fighters but that's largely propaganda and they turn most people away. Ukraine has a huge professional army. They're actually fine on soldiers they want a big air force.
My support goes to Ukrainian civilians caught in a war not of their making. But when it comes to NATO vs Russia, I don't have a dog in this fight. If a leftist wants to sign up for a fight, they should go to Rojava.
@helenS; I'm so sorry for the kind of people you have to put up with - those ones who lick boots and 'stink like rotten meat'. I've never met anyone like that. I'd stay away from them if I were you; at least far enough that you don't have to fret about their body odours. . Can't you move somewhere else?
@Budwick My post was written from a European perspective. Here's an example: "We have to keep talking and negotiating with Putin", says Melenchon's spokesperson. Mélenchon is the current chieftain of the left in France.
[quote]I am a single mother with two children.[/quote]
That is no excuse. Come on, you need to save the world from Russian tyranny! That's what you're asking all your (ex) left-wing friends to do!
Has it ever occurred to you that they have children and priorities, too? Maybe people just don't want their loved ones (and themselves) to get, you know...blasted by nukes.
