Do you think it's a mistake for Finland to join NATO
It doesn't look like Russia will invade Finland
51-55, M
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ElwoodBlues · M
No, it's smart for Finland to join NATO. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violated a three-way treaty known as the [i]1994 Budapest Memorandum,[/i] see below. Given that Russia cannot be trusted to respect either treaties or borders, it's smart of Finland to join a mutual defense organization.
[sep][sep][sep]
[b][b] Budapest Memorandum[/b][/b]
Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.
[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.
In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.
[/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44
[sep][sep][sep]
[b][b] Budapest Memorandum[/b][/b]
Essentially, Ukraine agreed to give up all its nuclear weapons to Russia in exchange for safety from a U.S. or Russian invasion. Russia's invasion of Ukraine violates that treaty. And as a signatory to that 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the U.S. has a definite interest in righting Putin's current wrongs.
[quote]In the final version of the deal, Russia promised not to attack Ukraine. While the U.S. and the U.K. assured Ukraine they would aid if it was attacked by Russia, that promised aid did not guarantee military support like a NATO country would receive.
In 2009, Russia and the U.S. announced that the assurances in the Budapest Memorandum would continue to remain in effect in the future.
[/quote]
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/global-conflicts/ukraine-agreed-to-give-up-nukes-in-exchange-for-safety-from-russia-invasion-attack-budapest-memorandum-treaty/536-8748a51f-10ee-47f0-be30-b4088750ee44
SusanInFlorida · 31-35, F
I'm sure the Ukranians felt the same way at some point. After all, they had that leaky/decrepit USSR nuclear reactor Chernobyl on their soil. Who wants to invade with THAT thing in your path.
Wait - Russia already DID invade Finland. This was during WW2.
Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it.
Wait - Russia already DID invade Finland. This was during WW2.
Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it.
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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@SusanInFlorida Of course not. Not because of Russia. But China has been quietly buying up small nation votes in the UN through aid/trade programs contained in the "One Belt, One Road " policy, agreeing to defer or forgive debt for build projects for everything from African Railroads to Pacific Island nation ports and airports built and defaulted on. Much like the Russian bank loans still outstanding to Trump.. "See things my way and we can forget about the payment."
So China now has the leverage to protect Russia in the UN..😷
So China now has the leverage to protect Russia in the UN..😷
SusanInFlorida · 31-35, F
@whowasthatmaskedman todays tidbit on "belt and road" - 22 nations with Chinese development grants were given extensions, or bailed out entirely by china because of waste, fraud, abuse, and incompetence in those project.
one can only hope that western democracies have the good sense to stand back and do nothing while China further entangles itself in this sort of debacle.
one can only hope that western democracies have the good sense to stand back and do nothing while China further entangles itself in this sort of debacle.
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@SusanInFlorida The Chinese were counting on precisely that.. Under the deal, they suppied the labor and materials for the projects and often staffed them with technical experts of their own, offering little or no upskilling of locals. And once a default occurs they retain the right to use the infrastructure themselves, So they in effect have military spec airports and Naval facilities on foreign soil that the owner has agreed to allow them to use. A lot cheaper and quicker that starting a war over it all. Interesting side note. China has a long term lease over the Port of Darwin under a different program. But makes ya think, doesnt it?😷
HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@samueltyler2 Since World War 2 how many armed conflicts has Russia gotten involved in and how many have the U.S. gotten involved in?
[quote]Following the election of Vladimir Putin in Russia in 2000 and a pro-Western change of power in Georgia in 2003, relations between Russia and Georgia began to deteriorate, reaching a full diplomatic crisis by April 2008, when NATO promised to consider Georgia's bid for membership.[/quote]
You left out the fact that NATO meddled in Georgia.
[quote]Following the election of Vladimir Putin in Russia in 2000 and a pro-Western change of power in Georgia in 2003, relations between Russia and Georgia began to deteriorate, reaching a full diplomatic crisis by April 2008, when NATO promised to consider Georgia's bid for membership.[/quote]
You left out the fact that NATO meddled in Georgia.
samueltyler2 · 80-89, M
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays it isn't worth arguing with you, you can't see the forest for the trees!
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays Why would anyone want good relations with the russian genocidal gangster state?
justanothername · 51-55, M
It’s not a mistake. Finland joining NATO is the right decision. NATO is a European community alliance which means Finland when Finland becomes a NATO member it will be required to commit resources to any other NATO member country that comes under attack and alternatively it will receive resources from the NATO community if it ever gets attacked.
firefall · 61-69, M
Not a mistake at all, it gives them a considerable buffer of safety, plus helps integrate them into Europe. Russia might not currently look like it'll invade, but it has done before, and seems to still regard Finland as rightfully Russian territory, so more security seems like a no-brainer really
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@whowasthatmaskedman [quote]Canada was a founding member of the Alliance and has remained as a member since its inception. NATO is a major contributor to international peace and security and is the cornerstone of Canadian security and defence policy.[/quote]
whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays I really should have known that. But I didnt. Thanks..😷
BohemianBoo · M
@fanuc2013 And Putin wants to rebuild the Russian Empire, which would include Finland.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
No, but it is for Finland to choose whether to apply. She had been co-operating with NATO,, and participating in joint exercises with NATO countries, for years anyway.
No, I don't think Russia will invade Finland either - well, not beyond the border along the Karelia region Russia annexed long ago.
No, I don't think Russia will invade Finland either - well, not beyond the border along the Karelia region Russia annexed long ago.
originnone · 61-69, M
originnone · 61-69, M
@dubum no...just that they'd invade Ukraine for whatever reason
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
The U.S., NATO and Russia should work through negotiations to arrive at new mutually satisfactory security arrangements in Europe. That is the only thing that will help secure peace for the continent.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays No need. After defeat in Ukraine, Russia won’t be a threat to anyone for a very long time
Carey · F
Why would it be a mistake? Russia has invaded Finland before, might well do so again. But won't once Finland is a NATO member..
TheOneyouwerewarnedabout · 41-45, MVIP
NATO should dry up and blow away.
for a defensive pact. they been smack bang in the middle of every conflict in 50 years.
for a defensive pact. they been smack bang in the middle of every conflict in 50 years.
GerOttman · 61-69, M
Nahhh, it's all good. I'll join NATO if it helps. Why don't we all join NATO?
deadgerbil · 22-25
What would you say are the downsides of it joining that could make it a mistake?
MartinTheFirst · 26-30, M
MartinTheFirst · 26-30, M
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays they will accept anyone, its not exactly an exclusive club
@MartinTheFirst Turkey has been saying it might veto because of the treatment of Muslims.
MartinTheFirst · 26-30, M
@FrogManSometimesLooksBothWays no one cares about turkey lol
Crazywaterspring · 61-69, M
There is no Winston Churchill to block aid now if Russia invades.
MrBrownstone · 46-50, M
NATO doesn’t do anything so no.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
It's wrong but it's no mistake.
Khenpal1 · M
they did in the past.
bijouxbroussard · F
MonaReeves86 · 36-40, F
What is NATO
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dubum · 51-55, M
@MonaReeves86 Neanderthal Atlantic Thug Organization
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Carla · 61-69, F
@BohemianBoo thoughtful.
But you did use it as a criticism. You were being critical of putin.
And, that word, in any of it's forms, is offensive.
And is still largely used as a racial slur.
Some words should just feel bad coming out of the mouth.
Gypped is still wrong. As is jewed.
I know full well how those words originated.
People here, in this backwoods area, use the term n****r rigged. It hurts my ears, boo...
But you did use it as a criticism. You were being critical of putin.
And, that word, in any of it's forms, is offensive.
And is still largely used as a racial slur.
Some words should just feel bad coming out of the mouth.
Gypped is still wrong. As is jewed.
I know full well how those words originated.
People here, in this backwoods area, use the term n****r rigged. It hurts my ears, boo...
BohemianBoo · M
@Carla I used it to refer to him, but the word itself wasn't used as an insult. That's something I don't do since to me the word isn't a negative or a positive.
It's used as a slur with the hard R. There's actually a lot of discourse on this and the two versions are practically two different words.
As for just feeling bad when you hear it, I understand. This is something we're just gonna disagree on as it's largely a generational and maybe cultural difference. It's kinda like how "colored" can be an insult in America, but in South Africa, "coloreds" are a nationally recognized ethnic group.
It's used as a slur with the hard R. There's actually a lot of discourse on this and the two versions are practically two different words.
As for just feeling bad when you hear it, I understand. This is something we're just gonna disagree on as it's largely a generational and maybe cultural difference. It's kinda like how "colored" can be an insult in America, but in South Africa, "coloreds" are a nationally recognized ethnic group.
