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Maybe a Texan can explain

It took 40 minutes or more to breach the school and take down the shooter. And when it was done, it was done by a tactical squad from the U.S. Border Patrol -- we are talking about 50+ miles from the border -- that the Texas Governor claims is ineffectual and not doing their job, while Uvalde residents complained their local law enforcement stood around outside doing nothing.

Have y'all asked Gov. Abbott to define effectual without using political labels?

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Onestarlitnight

Cops are cowards.. this isn't the first time they waited for backup.. FORTY MINUTES while hearing gunfire KILLING CHILDREN.. they actually tackled a parent who tried to go in.. video shows parents pleading for police to go in and do something as the sound of gunfire rang out.. FORTY MINUTES..every officer who stood by needs to be charged with MASS MURDER

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spjennifer · 56-60, T

@whowasthatmaskedman

[media=https://youtu.be/f16XSB2cORg]

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@spjennifer You can see how Gun owners end up confused.😷

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Milkshake · F

other countries cops have to go to a police school for 2-3 years... here every idiot can become a cop after 3 month of training...

cops in the usa are propably the shittiest policeforce in the world.. full of cowards and they all cover each others asses

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MethDozer · M

@dancingtongue Oh Awchie!

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@MethDozer You know, the great thing about that show at a time when the country was just about as divided and polarized was that both sides could watch it and laugh at it. My father loved the show because "Archie tells it like it is" and, laughed at all the put downs of his "little girl" and Meathead. I could laugh at Archie's outlandish statements, but had to admit, in truth, some of Meathead's pronouncements were just as outlandish as Archie's. And everyone could empathize with poor Edith, caught in the middle, and just trying to muddle through, but unknowingly usually stumbled on the most practical solution. In today's climate, even in the humor shows, there would be no room for Edith. Everything is 100% one pole or the other.

Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@Milkshake Did you know that cops are supposed to meet the UN standard?
https://www.unodc.org/pdf/criminal_justice/Handbook_on_police_Accountability_Oversight_and_Integrity.pdf

Heartlander · 80-89, M

I don't now live in Texas but am a self proclaimed Texan who once lived a hundred miles or so from Uvalde, and with deep ties that go back to the beginning of the Republic ...

Also, I'm an analyst by occupational history, a systems person, and one who has a bit of insight into how government and agencies work, and also have a bit of insight of how the media responds to such incidents.

The investigation is still in process and there are still many unknowns. But, from what I saw from today's press briefing ...

It's uncertain why Salvador Ramos picked that particular door to gain entrance, possibly it was random and just happened to be the closest door when he wrecked his vehicle. Or maybe he intentionally wrecked his vehicle near a door that he intended to use.

They said the door was unlocked and there was no security officer to confront him. Considering the proximity to the (staff?) parking lot, that may explain why that door may have been unlocked, or possibly jimmy-rigged to remain unlocked. Or maybe it was locked and he had the key (I believe his grandma once worked there). Or maybe it was locked and he shot out the locks.

We'll probably learn more about the above later, but regardless of which, per press briefing, he immediately went to one or two rooms and started murdering. By this time the local police were responding and had multiple missions. One was to help lock down the remainder of the school and the other being to find, isolate and engage the active shooter. They did both. Per the press briefing, the local police did all that and was communicating with the shooter who had barricaded himself, and during the engagement some of the police may have been injured. Once cornered and isolated he was possibly no longer an imminent danger except to anyone who tried to charge his position. To take him out completely, without further endangering the police or remaining children required a tactical team with resources, so the role of the local police would have been to keep him pinned and talking until the tactical unit arrived.

The sad part is that the teachers and children were likely all murdered within those first few minutes; but for those next 40 or 50 minutes the local police successfully prevented him from shooting more children. We will at some point know about the communication between Ramos and the police. The significance of that 50 minutes probably affected the lives of those injured who may have been saved had they been given medical attention earlier. Had the local police not waited for the tactical team, their efforts may have instead flushed him out where he could have continued to shoot more children.

This is just my analysis based on the news briefings.

Stories about parents trying to gain access to the building while the shooting was in process are both understood and disturbing because they consumed police resources that may have been better used to lock down and isolate the other children in the building. We don't know whether that shooting was between the local police and Ramos or directed at the children, but considering that the local police were in the building and engaging Ramos, it's more likely that it was between the police and Ramos.

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dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Heartlander The animosity between local law enforcement and Federal law enforcement is pretty well documented everywhere, although in most of the country is with the FBI, ICE, and ATF. All tend to want to big foot the local police, ignoring the fact that the local police should know the local culture and terrain better. (Alas, too few engage in community police for that to be truly accurate, but that is another issue.) What you describe with local property being trampled and prowled, communities turned into holding cells, all brown skinned people being treated as foreigners is about what I would expect. But the rhetoric out of the politicians is all about rapists/murderers entering at will and Border Patrol doing nothing when there is a Democratic administration and how the property owners are setting out cookies and milk for the Wall builders when another brand of politician is in office.

Having grown up in a border state as poor white trash with more in common with poor people of different hued skins than other whites and know exactly what you mean about the One River One People culture that could exist if we had a functional immigration policy and rational law enforcement. I remember going across the border into Mexicali with a high school group well back into the last century, and we bought a bunch of fireworks that were banned on our side of the border. When we crossed back into Calixico, the Border Patrol officer said "You know those are against state law. But I am a Federal officer. Have a nice day."

Contrast that to New Zealand where all the police are trained at one national police academy, all taught the same protocols and procedures, all issued the same radios and radio frequencies so they can communicate with one another, but they are then assigned to local communities and operate under local community governments. So they are all operating out of the same play book rather than tripping over each other and playing Alpha dog big foot games, while at the same time recognizing that knowing the local culture and terrain is a big advantage. And, of course, like much of law enforcement in other developed countries, they only break out the firearms when they have an operation planned against organized crime that could be armed. But then they live in societies with realistic gun control laws in place, so no "gun culture" to worry about.

Heartlander · 80-89, M

@dancingtongue Yes, the border area is a bit different from the rest of the country because the federal presence is far more visible and has a bigger footprint, as is the state authority.

One thing I've not seen mentioned in the Uvalde rampage is about the brain poison music that comes along with the drugs. What would a daily dose of this kind of crap do to a kid's brain?

[media=https://youtu.be/2T_VoXsUCc4]

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Heartlander Can't help. Perhaps that explains why the kids in that classroom were watching the movie Moana? As a hopeful antidote?

BizSuitStacy · M

I get more angry by the moment. The mainstream news tried to get ahead of this story to push a gun control agenda. They wrote articles about Uvalde's extensive security protocol to address an active shooter situation, and how the school had armed security on the premises. Some articles even mention the shooter engaging and shooting a resource officer prior to entering the school.

The truth is from the point in time where this nut shoots his grandmother, to driving the car through the fence, into the ditch, walking out with an AR-15 in hand, and entering the school, [b]NO ONE[/b] engaged the shooter. No one.

Now we learn that Uvalde police didn't respond and engage the shooter for a period of between 40 minutes to an hour. They waited for the border patrol tactical unit to arrive to neutralize the shooter.

So the mainstream news has the f**king nerve to claim this incident proves that arming teachers and having armed security at schools won't stop school shootings. I guess that's true when you sit back and do [b]absolutely nothing[/b]. Yet how was the shooter ultimately stopped? By a tactically trained border patrol agent with a gun. Imagine if the school had a few people like this border patrol agent managing school security. It's likely all those kids would still be alive.

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dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Heartlander If I understood the head of the Texas Rangers correctly, the timeline they put together indicates that it was still an active shooter situation with kids alive and dialing 911 from inside the room when both the armed school officer and Uvalde police were on the scene. But despite the calls and the evidence lives could be saved, they made a determination it was a barricaded shooter situation indicating there were no lives to be saved and therefore no rush, more appropriate to wait for a tactical squad. Which was the situation when the tactical squad did arrive.

Such failure to follow the basic protocols most use is incompetence that needs to be rooted out as well. But I agree, the bigger focus needs to be on this country's abject failure to deal with mental health issues and the gun industry that caters to them, creating a deadly gun culture no civilized country should permit. To this end, obstructionist and filibusterer in chief Senator Mitch McConnell's comments endorsing a bi-partisan effort at gun control legislation -- regardless how sincere it may be -- also qualified as news.

Incidentally, on the same day as the Uvalde mass shooting, teachers at a high school in my community became alarmed at social media postings by one of its students making racially-related hate statements about a school staff member and mentioning school shootings and called the police. The police escorted the student and parents off campus to a neutral site, interrogated them, made a search of the home, found more references to both but no weapons. Harder for a kid to obtain a weapon in California because of our gun control laws, unless you are close to the Nevada, Arizona, and Mexican borders. The kid was taken into custody for further mental health evaluation. And yes, that made the news as well.

Heartlander · 80-89, M

@dancingtongue

Basic protocol instructions always include a preface step that common sense at the moment trumps the protocols that follow. Common verbiage is something on the order of "unless a greater emergency", "except if doing so ...".

We also need to reflect on Col's McCraw statement "but I wasn't there". That the Border Patrol team also took many precious minutes before breaching the entrance supports the possibility that doing so without the right equipment and procedure could have resulted in more loss of life. There's a lot that we don't know, but the people inside who were making the calls weren't rookie cops or cowards. Let the investigation unfold.

BizSuitStacy · M

@Heartlander The truth is coming out slowly. And my comments are made without a complete understanding of what happened. And as more information is made available, the more we realize how badly the media twisted this story to fit their gun control agenda. So I apologize if my comments aren't up to speed with all of the facts. Right now, I'm just fucking pissed off.

The doors to the school are supposed to be locked, but were not. The news claimed the school had an armed district officer posted at the entrance, who engaged the shooter, but was himself shot and wounded. Now we learn this was another massive lie, and that the district officer wasn't even present at the school. The Uvalde police stood down. The tactical border unit stood down. Who made that calll? . We've learned that parents were being arrested for wanting to go into the school to stop the shooter. Who could blame the parents? From what I've read, the border patrol agent who took out the shooter was getting a haircut at the time. His wife is a teacher at the school, and texted him. The barber loaned him a shotgun, he went to the scene, got a shield and went in. How much of all of this is actually true, we'll soon know.

I rarely get this angry, but I'm struggling to hold my tongue over the multitude of fucking failures that occurred.

CestManan · 46-50, F

What kind of a yellow turd could just stand by idly while a bunch of kids are getting shot.
And for 40 minutes?
At some point wouldn't some kind of protective instinct kick in?

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CestManan · 46-50, F

@whowasthatmaskedman they are going to paint their police cars yellow. Can you imagine if you needed police assistance though and those Jokers showed up? You would be like, well I guess I'm pretty much screwed

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@CestManan As much as the system can forgive and protect these men. (I wont blame each individual. This is a command failure) The people have to make their feelings known. Against the police, and against the politicians. We just threw out a bunch of corrupt politicians even though the replacement is a coin toss. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and tear the tape off.😷

cherokeepatti · 61-69, F

@CestManan Call a social worker

Diotrephes · 70-79, M

Haven't you heard? It is so wrong to blame the cops for the slaughter of those kids.

[b][i]Blaming cops for Texas school massacre ‘unfair’ and ‘destructive,’ Sen. John Cornyn says[/i][/b]
https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/sen-john-cornyn-its-unfair-to-blame-cops-in-texas-school-shooting/

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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@Diotrephes I get that.. And in places grandpappy's old .45 will be a family Heirloom. But you have to start someplace and with law abiding, responsible gun owners is the only way. Been there, done that..😷

Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@whowasthatmaskedman So, how would you handle such cases?

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@Diotrephes Simply enough. Any person not disquialified from gun ownership can keep everything they have. Provide a list of models and serial numbers in your possession at that point. From that point on the firearm is legal and is your responsibility to secure. If you dont want to keep it, hand it to a buyback program or sell it to a dealer during an amnesty period. Remember, we are talking about responsible gun owners here.. I dont expect criminals to comply.. But is someone has a gun in their possession not listed as theirs, thats a felony offence.😷

Diotrephes · 70-79, M

Hey, the shooter had his reasons for killing all of those kids and the two teachers so stop blaming him.

[b][i]Mother of Texas school shooter tearfully begs people not to judge her son and says she 'wants the innocent children who died to forgive her': 'I know he had his reasons for doing what he did'
Robb Elementary School shooter Salvador Ramos' mother, Adriana Reyes, said that her son 'had his reasons' for shooting 21 people dead
'He had his reasons for doing what he did and please don't judge him', she said
'I only want the innocent children who died to forgive me. Forgive me, forgive my son'
Reyes said that she had a good relationship with her son and that he didn't have many friends
[/i][/b]
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10861139/Forgive-son-reasons-did-Mother-shooter-asks-people-not-judge-son.html

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Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@LordShadowfire The dummy wants everyone to forgive her killer son because he had his reasons for killing 21 people and wounding others. In the old days she would have been tarred and feathered if not lynched.

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Diotrephes In Michigan she would be tried as an accomplice for bad parenting. In Texas they are more likely to go after a teacher claiming s/he inflamed him with CRT.

AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M

@Diotrephes in the old days the entire blood line would be ended to protect society.

robb65 · 56-60, M

The distance from the border is irrelevant, Border Patrol operates up to 100-150 miles inland at times and for all we know they were just around the corner when the shooting started.
The notion that law enforcement was just standing around and doing nothing is being disputed. Granted, right now it seems their timeline is a bit fuzzy and they aren't wanting to talk about it but until they fill in the details we really don't know when BP arrived on the scene, who was the first in the building, or why anything took as long as it did. What I'm hearing sounds as if someone managed to keep him contained in one room and that most of the deaths were in that one room. As horrible as that is it could have been much much worse if everyone had been standing around doing nothing.

romell · 51-55, M

What bull shit ..in incidents like these times of essence.. closest resources should be put in action fast its not a terror strike for gods sake.. sure police should be capable enough to take down one crazy n not wait for him to inflict heavier casualties waiting for ""tactical teams'"

Zaphod42 · 46-50, M

To be fair, border patrol has a jurisdiction that extends 100 miles in from any given US border, so it’s entirely possible they were the nearest tactical unit. I know nothing about the town itself or what sort of police units they have.

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@Zaphod42 OK. I thought they might be the closest tactical squad, but good to know it is also within their jurisdiction. But will the Governor face up to the fact that despite all his prideful rhetoric the lack of local taxes and allowing everyone to pack, and how ineffectual the Federal government is, when push comes to shove it is still call for the Feds and use those tax subsidies from other states?

cherokeepatti · 61-69, F

seems like the police were told to stand down. All they did was block the parents from rushing in as they witnessed this tragedy unfold, standing there helpless. 40 Police standing around threatening parents with tasers not to go inside and tackling one father down to the ground because the police was doing nothing. Seems like a FF thing, but then again I’m no forensics expert am I?

Onestarlitnight

@cherokeepatti
They should all be charged with accessory to commit mass murder

cherokeepatti · 61-69, F

@Onestarlitnight If we were privy to what they were told to do I’d be willing to bet they were told to stand down and let it happen. Sound familiar?

Sharky86 · 36-40, M

OT: Is the son of a Texan and a Mexican called a Texican?

AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M

@Sharky86 Tejano

Sharky86 · 36-40, M

@AthrillatheHunt WOW

Rhode57 · 56-60, M

They were all to chicken to go in even though its their job .

Crazywaterspring · 61-69, M

ACAB. The National Guard can do policing during a crisis. The cops can stick to bothering minorities and going on break.

ACAB.

Northwest · M

[quote]Have y'all asked Gov. Abbott to [b][i][u]define effectual[/u][/i][/b] without using political labels?
[/quote]

Yes, Google Governor Abbott.

RedBaron · M

Why would anyone need and be able to explain something just because of where they live?

dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@RedBaron Because they live daily in both the rhetoric and reality of these issues, and the majority still elect people spouting the rhetoric?

RedBaron · M

@dancingtongue No individual person is responsible to that extent, which is why you won’t get any meaningful answers. Try barking up a different tree and maybe think more before posting.

Vivaci

It’s truly appalling and beyond any logic or reasoning. Cops are looking like idiots or puppets.

SW-User

A cop's forte is to ruin everyones life but their own

ViciDraco · 36-40, M

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Human1000 · M

Horrible place to live.

SW-User

Interesting.

Meanwhile, back to the [i]real threat[/i] of the "caravans" and wind turbines ...

LordShadowfire · M

@MethDozer if you want to continue the conversation, please do it over here. OneMoonlitNight blocked me after cussing me out.

MethDozer · M

@LordShadowfire Honestly I don't have much more to say on it.

LordShadowfire · M

@MethDozer I just think if there aren't enough cops to handle the shooter, waiting for backup is not a coward move, and I got blocked for saying so.

MethDozer · M

@LordShadowfire 40 fucking minutes? Hiw much back up do they think yhey need?

LordShadowfire · M

He had to ask Deputy Governor Costello.

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Diotrephes · 70-79, M

@Ferise1 Well, you are busy spewing their propaganda.

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dancingtongue · 80-89, M

@CopperCicada And I agree there is some rationale to this approach. The strategic decision of when to secure the site for those with more tactical training/body armor/fire power vs. quick action to minimize casualties, surprise the shooter is a difficult one that can be debated ad nauseum and becomes one of those lose/lose coin flip decisions the on site commander must make. My question is about the political rhetoric spouted out of the Governor and so many other Texans about the Border Patrol being ineffectual, having to do the Feds job for themselves, if all citizens were armed they could step up and stop these situations, and the rejoicing over their low taxes while counting on other states to subsidize them -- how do they continue to keep a straight face when reciting it by rote in the face of reality?

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