Does anyone ever get tired of this crap? People pitted against each other for choices we all make one way or another. I don't think either side has a right to have their noses up in the air or their butts kissed. You all or mostly all... claim to want a better world and unity and all you do is fight and act like you have a right to hate on others for not being just like you.
Whoever wanted this question posted knew it would cause some upset... Should the vaccinated and unvaccinated be turned down for help just because they can all still get and pass that covid? My heart doesn't have room to fight over who deserves love, care, help, etc...
I'd rather die than be treated by those with hate in their hearts...vaccinated or not.
@SW-User Yes, well, but at least over here chronic illnesses doesn't overload hospitals in a way that if someone needs to be admitted due to a stroke or a car accident, they have to be sent to another hospital or even another region/state altogether. SCV2, on the other hand, does and is extremely efficient at that, during the first wave it's taken circa three weeks for hospitals in the most medically-advanced region here to reach the point of saturation.
We've raised our total national number of ICU beds by something like +50% in 2020 compared to pre-pandemic times, but it still wouldn't be enough if we lifted restrictions and the current 20% of unvaxxed people got infected quickly and a portion of them needed intensive care.
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@Elessar Chronic illnesses don't usually overload hospitals because of previous experience and better readiness by the governments/health sector. They have been dealt with for years. So the medical infrastructure (like number of hospitals including ICUs and bed capacity) + staff is decided according to the normal, predicted demand.
Twenty-twenty was a rough year even before the roll out of COVID vaccines. It was a learning curve for many governments to face the emerging pandemic.
I hope the situation never goes back to the disastrous 2020 state it was, for you guys there. And I understand the anger towards the anti-vaxxers because honestly, I've felt the same.
@SW-User The U.S. especially in the south is facing a major hospital crisis due to COVID in the unvaxxed right now. In spite of all the options we now have to reduce the number of people who'll need hospital and ICU treatment (at least compared to 2020). The potential to get back to that situation is there, so long as we have a sufficiently large portion of the population who refuses to get protected against the worst outcomes.
Has people souls gotten so full of hate, fear and judgment..we would wish harm upon others.
I guess, if you are NOT eating healthy, NOT keeping up with fitness, NOT drink plenty of water and have a problem with Obesity, or you are an alcoholic or a drug addict.... AND you get sick...I guess hospitals should not help you because you did the harm to yourself..... Edited ...I hope everyone knows I was being "sarcastic"... in this statement here!
@ShadowWorker the CDC is now ruined. They have changed the definition of a vaccination from an immunity making medical treatment to a disease defense treatment.
It's no longer what it was. The vaccination solves nothing.
I have pretty much begun to really dislike this site. Hate is allowed to stay and questions like this are promoted... people saying they wish all unvaccinated would die from covid and so much more... What really constitutes a violation and what does this site really stand for?
We're helping ourselves and each other by limiting harassment, not just the admins. I criticized many of admins updates but I've also seen people in support of those I dislike such as the downvote. It is not possible to satisfy everyone's preferences.
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@Miram The down vote wasn't a positive no matter how many wanted it. I didn't see anyone really happy about that one. As for helping ourselves, maybe that means not playing the game. I don't need fake money and upsets.
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@Nuno Here's what I'll give you before I leave this site... https://similarworlds.com/uncategorized/4045302-She-is-a-woman-She-is-not-a-mountain-peak-Dont-go A lot of downvoting done on the comments. Can't tell that is hate?
Everyone who requires medical treatment should get it. But if a hospital is running at 100% capacity, I wouldn’t give the unvaccinated priority over other patients. Unless they had a legitimate reason for not being vaccinated.
@Elessar Yes, but there is no reason to suspect it is preferentially worse, right?
Even if the rate is as bad as that for the unvaccinated, the overwhelming # of new cases coming from the ranks of the unvaccinated should swamp the number of long-haulers due to CoViD.
That was my point, though clear data would be great.
@Really the so called covid vaccine 100% guarantees that you will never ever get covid. That is what the government promised and we all know they tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth right?
They didn’t trust the medicine behind the vaccine. Do they know what’ll be in every drug the doctors give them to treat them? Why should they trust [i]any[/i] doctor, in the first place? They’re all in on the conspiracy, after all 🙄
hmm...well let's not stop there people with diabetes probably had bad dietary habits same with heart disease and fuck those smokers - they deserve lung cancer
@SubstantialKick I'm not being serious - I'm trying to illustrate that if you try to say that one group can't get medical care because of a risky decision then you open the door to all sorts of other "what if's"
Well the unvaxed should be denied hospital treatments only if the vaxed are treated the same when the truth is revealed. There is no evidence that the vax works but mounting evidence the vax is a danger. Pick which hill you want to die on because sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.
@hippyjoe1955 [b]DEAD WRONG![/b] Here's some of the evidence you keep denying. New CDC study says vaccinated are 29 times LESS likely to require hospitalization vs unvaccinated. Link to the underlying CDC study: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm?s_cid=mm7034e5_w
For those who don't want to wade through all the confidence interval reporting, here it is in the popular press: "Unvaccinated individuals are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized from COVID-19, CDC says" https://www.foxnews.com/health/unvaccinated-individuals-29-more-likely-hospitalized-covid
[b]Update:[/b] the discredit all accrues to [i]you,[/i] my friend!
Because healthcare is a neutral ground. Everyone who needs it should have access regardless of money, status, vaccinated or unvaccinated, legal or illegal immigrant, insured or not insured.
Poor diet choices, smoking, lack of activity, excessively drinking alcohol..all of that is known to contribute to chronic illness and we still tend to them.
You choose to alienate the unvaccinated, you will open the door to alienating everyone too and discriminating against them.
@Miram I agree so much. I do draw the line at non urgent care for illegal immigrants. Urgent care sure everyone but non urgent care only if the illegal can pay for it out of pocket. And we should have some cheap clinics everywhere to assist all poor, visiting and uninsured. We cannot tax our healthcare system out of existence by taking care of blood pressure and diabetes medicine for millions of people who unfortunately for whatever reason break our laws( costing us money) and then don't share into the tax burden.
@Thevy29 I think painting all people that don't take the vaccine as stupid is pretty broad stroke. I have a nephew who couldn't take it ,because of health reasons and there are other concerns for other individual people. I wish people were just kind to each other whatever they decide to do.
@Justmeraeagain Your nephew and they others did try to get it though and couldn't for medical reasons. That is different and not included in the stupid side of things. But if you think I'm going to list every case for or against with the hopes that an AntiVaxxer would actually read it (I don't think most can read actually) then you have more faith in human kind then I do.
People seem to forget that there are other illnesses besides COVID. If someone is un-vaccinated and gets another of these illnesses that why shouldn't they be treated for it IF they would be under regular circumstances? Just common sense. The argument makes no sense.
I don't think the unvaccinated should be turned away from hospitals JUST for being unvaccinated. However, some doctor groups have already formed a plan to admit vaccinated people FIRST, if there is a shortage of beds. Oh, and there's a shortage of beds...
It is a perfectly logical plan, from a medical perspective. If we ignore politics, and just view it from a MEDICAL perspective....
There is one bed left in the hospital. Two patients are very ill with covid, and qualify to be admitted. Doctors can admit ONE patient. Who do they admit? ANSWER: They admit the one that is more likely to leave the hospital on their own two feet. That would be the vaccinated one.
Why is that the right decision from a medical perspective? It's simple Math, really. Without medical care both people would (likely) die. WITH medical care, one might live. Knowing they can only attempt to save one or the other, which one do they try to help?
Well, in the interest of keeping death numbers as low as possible, they have to choose to help the one who is vaccinated.
It boils down to... 1) If we admit the unvaccinated person, there is a good possibility that they both die 2) If we admit the vaccinated person, there is a good possibility that at least one person LIVES
The only way this is a WRONG decision is if you are looking at it from the perspective of the unvaccinated person, or somebody close to that person...
But doctors can't make decisions based on emotion. Doctors have to make decisions all the time about who they CAN save, and who they can't. This decision about admitting people based on vaccination status is just another "factor" that influences the decisions that doctors make all the time.
Don't like it? Don't put yourself in a position to need hospitalization when you aren't vaccinated yet. It is entirely in YOUR power to move yourself to the front of the line...
@mikeylyksit Hospitals already triage upon where they can help the most based off need. That's a known fact. It may hurt, but in the cancer wing, they will take those who no longer smoke than those who still smoke. Hopefully the doctor in that instance, has a little grace in understanding and tells in a compassionate way to the family we must treat other's first.
There is a million examples before that actually approach this subject, but it's riddled with emotion and ideology right now. Myself, I sit on the side of compassion and empathy, treat who you can, and don't blame those ill.
@wildbill83 First, it's not my logic. DOCTOR GROUPS are already making decisions based on THEIR logic. And while it's true that nobody is immune, whether they are vaccinated or not...
It is also true that if you are vaccinated, you are MUCH more likely to survive. That's based on hard science, at this point.
So the the doctors who think this way are CORRECT in their logic.
No. In the first part of the Hippocratic oath it says [b]"I will abstain from all [c=BF0000]intentional wrong-doing[/c] and harm,"[/b] as a doctor, trying to practice medicine on what you think is "morally right and just" is just as irresponsible, we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The most murderous tyrants in the world think that they what they do is right, everyone thinks they are right and that's what makes this so dangerous in regards to denying medical care.
Now I'm vaccinated so [b]don't get me wrong[/b] here, I don't want my words twisted on this platform. I DO think that people who refuse to be vaccinated and DON'T have a medical condition are irresponsible and unjust.
I'm not saying that I don't think they're not dangerous, it's been proven that polio has come back in certain countries because of anti vaccine dogma. That's not fair to the children who don't have money for medical care and someone's child has to be murdered because people refused to get a vaccine. That's irresponsible and dangerous.
However, I take upon the viewpoint that doctors HAVE to be better than other people in order to treat people from all walks of life. It doesn't matter who, it matters that you took an oath and that you are the bastion that people depend on. This also means being morally reliable. You can't let yourself become corrupt even if everyone around you is because you have a delicate balance to maintain as a doctor.
What if a Christian doctor denied a gay person an emergency surgery?
See, everyone would agree that's wrong and I would agree that it's without a doubt wrong but to the Christian who has legit (even if they're not really legit) arguments inside their own heads for not treating someone, well where does this end?
It's a complicated question, ethically speaking - let me reformulate it in a different way:
Should someone who needed hospital care for a reason they haven't deliberately refused to protect themselves from be rejected treatment, because the hospital is already filled with (repented) novaxxers?
Because that's the direct consequence of the status quo.
Hospitals have begun kicking out the unvaccinated. Doesn't matter if it is a sprain or a stroke. If they find out you are unvaccinated, they just wheel your bed or chair to the exit and into the street and say,"Get lost, freak!"
What prompted this was that top medical advisors and professionals have started reading the opinions of disgruntled yet popular members here. The experts want to be popular on here too so they figured "Why not just kick out the unvaccinated ones as to appease the covidphobes on SW?"
The next plan is to have at least one vaccinated SW member stationed at the most popular hospitals so when a unvaxxed rolls by, they can dance and chant, "Nah nah nah nah boo boo, stick your head in doo doo!"
@CestManan I don't know where you live but no, hospitals aren't kicking out anyone, at least in the U.S. (that is currently struggling with saturation, guess from who) and the E.U.
The anti-mask and anti-vax crowd effectively choose to become foolish, disease ridden killers. In a situation where there's a shortage of beds and very high risk the innocent deserve preferential treatment.
@MarineBob Un-vaccinated airline employees are being financially penalized $400 per month. Same reason: insurance costs to cover the $80,000 employee recuperation.
The unvaccinated, just like smokers, should pay more for health insurance to cover their increased risk of long hospitalization.
The question of whether to treat should only arise in triage decisions. In those cases the unvaccinated should get a lower priority than the vaccinated.
@wildbill83 Are you basing your claims on some assumption that the US government pays for everyone's hospital stays? Insurance companies pay, not the government. Medicare is an insurance company funded by FICA payroll taxes, not the general treasury, so every Medicare recipient has paid into the system.
@hippyjoe1955 Gibraltar is too tiny for it to be worth my while checking your numbers; suffice it to say your track record with truth is awful. Since it's a simple cut & paste, I'll show you [b]again[/b] how wrong you are about Israel.
Here's the Israel data you keep ignoring. https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated
Also see: [quote]Unvaccinated Israeli elderly are eight times more likely to experience a severe case of COVID-19 than their immunized counterparts, according to Health Ministry data[/quote] Source: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640
@ElwoodBlues Tee hee. you and your silly reports. Try looking at the actual numbers not the ones the pro vax crowd puts out. You do need to learn more about science.
Some have medical issues ... and wait to see if there'll be more options for them....
I finally got mine started.. I'm chronic and went through a series of Vax that needed revisiting, boosters and some that finally are available soo... since Oct 2020 I got vaxxed until the cows came home.
And doctors wanted to check into that inflammatory heart condition about in some of the covid treatments.
After 6 months of catching me up and with enough info about any effects on circulatory & respiratory ....
They allowed me to start with the less aggressive moderna.
I'll be needing 2 more shots.... for now, they believe.
While I agree that everyone medically capable of taking the jab should do so to protect themselves, their loved ones society as a whole and help fight this bloody awful pandemic no-one should ever be denied medical care. Hospitals routinely treat people who have injured themselves through making stupid decisions. I would not like to live in a society that not only believes it has a theoretical right to deny medical care but has drawn up a means of deciding who does or does not "deserve" medical care
Whatever the answer here to this here, the Hospitals will care for whoever turns up if they have the resources. If they are overwhelmed and do not have sufficient resources, they will then treat the patients, who can get the best result with the limited resources.
Just imagine making that decision. You know someone will die based on your decision, but someone will or has a chance to live.
No matter what your attitude to anything, I hope you can step back and admire the guts they exercise, just doing their daily work.
Lol! This totally goes against the Hypocratic Oath.
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Hmm from what I’ve seen countless times now it’s all idgaf … until it becomes serious and they find themselves in a hospital bed crying “get the vaccine it’s not worth it” with tubes stuck up their ignorant noses.
I’m double vaccinated now with the AstraZeneca.
And I still wear a mask and keep a distance because there are new strains flying around.
This isn’t over until the virus stops finding a host and we still have a couple of years left of living this way until that happens but at least I’ve had two vaccines which makes me feel better in myself for now and the future.
Life is too precious to gamble with on that level of stupidly re not having a vaccine imo.
No, they should not be treated; neither should obese people, smokers, drinkers, the sexually profligate, motorcylists and bicyclists who don't wear helmets, any workers who aren't wearing full (and more) PPE, nudists who get skin cancer, or anyone who does any kind of risky activity.
At least, that is the logical extension of such fools as Don leMon, of CNN, [i]et.al.[/i] The straw man in his silliness is amazingly dumber than the straw scarecrow in "The Wizard of Oz."
@LordShadowfire Well, given that I had the distinguished pleasure to enjoy not smelling my farts back last December (the ChiCom virus shot hadn't made it out to Missouri yet--at least not where we live), and that I was tested 3 weeks ago for the appropriate antibodies (and was found to have them), and that the Cleveland Clinic and Israeli studies suggest that natural antibodies and the resultant T-cells seem to be superior to the vaccine (partly because the natural antibodies are broad spectrum, rather than tailored to just the "original" variant of the virus), I have determined that I'm sufficiently protected.
And the thing is, unless you live your life exactly in verbatim compliance with Don Lemon's preferences, you don't deserve to live! You are his enemy. If you violate just one jot or tittle of the law as he reads it, you're evil. Morally inferior. It is to weep, that it has come to that. Progressives are just the most morally superior people in the world. Until one of their own cancels them. Me? Nah. I accept people as people.
Good question. I think theres valid points on both sides of this coin.
Its a moral question. Everyone should have the same access to healthcare. Drunk drivers, drug addicts, anti-vaxxers, jehovah’s witnesses, rapists murderers, child molesters. Right? 🧐
@mikeylyksit that question shouldn't even be asked.
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@mikeylyksit Well, it wasn't me but this is what they promoted by allowing down votes. This site has changed so much even in the short time I have been here.
You are the head doctor at a large university hospital. There are 500 beds in your hospital, and 495 of them are full. You have 10 COVID patients who need to be admitted. They can't all be admitted. If they aren't admitted, they will most likely die.
You think this is a question that shouldn't be asked? Wrong. It is a question THAT CAN'T BE AVOIDED.
Just feel lucky that you (personally) are not the one who has to answer it in a life-or-death setting...
Doctors all over the world deal with this specific issue and many other "tough decisions" daily. They can't just bury their head in the sand and pretend that the problem is going to solve itself. They have a fricking JOB to do...
@bijouxbroussard Where that discussion is interesting in Canada, we have an actual public health care system (with flaws), but the idea those who refuse the vaccination shouldn't receive treatment is ridiculous to me. I was brought in a country, for better or worse, we cared for those who lived here. I only say that, as I see that expressed by people now here about covid and I find it so very flawed and disrepectful of the values I felt this country had.
