How can we take the Bible as an unchanging guide to morality when it condones slavery?
You can murder men and women and keep the virgin girls as your slaves. You can beat them to within an inch of their life and suffer no consequence. You can keep them forever and pass them on to your children as your property.
The bible says this is ok...and we all know it's not. So how can you trust it as a moral guide?
Slavery is not a problem if you have a good Master / Owner. Many slaves owned by good masters would never dream of being free because their masters looked after them and their families. “Therefore,” Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:20, because you were bought with a price and are not your own, "glorify God in your body. Exclusive ownership implies complete submission. If we belong to Christ—if He owns us—then the rule of our lives is not our will, but His will—our Master’s will. Elsewhere Paul also say to believers so clearly: “You are not your own. You have been bought with a price” (1 Cor. 6:19–20). Christians do not exist in untethered autonomy. We are not the masters of our fate nor the captains of our souls. We were bought with a price, and so we belong to the One who has paid that price. I, for one, gladly submit to being a slave of God. He rescued me, cleansed me, provide for me and protects me. And He loves me and mean me no harm. Why on earth should I not want to remain his property and slave?
@AthrillatheHunt [quote]slavery is still legal huh ?[/quote]
Damn right it is. If the federal government wanted to it could sell federal prisoners to you as slaves for a set amount of time. Of course, such people would probably knock your brains out as soon and they got their hands on a club. There were slave auctions advertized in newspapers in 1866, after the adoption of the 13th Amendment.
[b][c=BF0000]The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."[/c][/b]
Scroll down to page 6 of this pdf = https://blogs.law.columbia.edu/abolition1313/files/2020/08/Childs-Slaves-of-the-State-Ch.-2-2.pdf
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and From the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
For the past 158 years, State and federal prisons have operated as slave plantations. That is one of the main reasons America has more incarcerated people than any other country.
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and From the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
@AthrillatheHunt [quote]wards of the state are kinda the opposite of slaves . They are a liability rather than an asset. It costs a lot to incarcerate a man .[/quote] Since lynchings have fallen out of favor the preferred method for oppressing Blacks today is to imprison them regardless of the financial cost. having the Save Patrollers murder them is also an acceptble method of control. And one of the added benefits is that it deprives the convicted ones of their voting rights and all kinds of other human and civil rights.
BTW, remember that the constitution says that slavery is legal so the prisoners are actually slaves and not "wards of the state."
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and From the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
Commit genocide No commandment against pedophilia or slavery Stone people for working on the Sabbath Be willing to commit infanticide on God's command Offer your daughter to be raped by a mob.
@JimboSaturn [quote]What makes me laugh is the immaturity of the sexuality in it. As if all the gay men noticed the angels and gave a wink to each other and aggregated at Lot's house to fuck them! What kind of crazy story is that?[/quote]
There are lots (pun!) of ways to look at the story. But in the fairytale, angels are metaphors for the emperor's diplomats or priests. When people insulted them, they were insulting the emperor and that was a big no-no because the emperor was the God. When the townsmen wanted to screw the "angels" they were rejecting the emperor (God) and committing adultery a violation of the First Commandment (Exodus 34:11-16).
Remember, all of the stories in the Old & New Testaments illustrate one or more of the real Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:11-26). The miracles are based on Exodus 34:10, which is why there aren't any today.
So, when you read a story you should analyze it to determine which of the real Ten Commandments the story illustrates. As Exodus 34:14 (ERV) says = "14 Don’t worship any other god. I am Yahweh Kanah—the jealous Lord. That is my name. I hate for my people to worship other gods."
Therefore, in order to really keep the commandment, you must toss everyone overboard if they come before your worship of "God" in any way. It would be like if you saw a priest, bishop, pope, minister, or a rabbi screwing your toddler daughter. Since they are agents of God it would be a violation of the First Commandment to rat them out or to blow their brains out. So, that is why Lot did what he did, although he was a bastard for doing it.
Always remember, the Bible does not teach morality. It teaches complete obedience and total loyalty.
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and From the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
@Diotrephes I don't think its that nuanced. Its just a bunch of patriarchal homophobia. Assuming gay men are obsessed with anal sex (sodomy) and are going to respond to the stimulati of hot angels. Zero lessons to be learned from this horrible story. Lots daughters get Lot drunk in later years and fuck him incestuously to keep their line alive. This is the sexual landscape of a teenager
@JimboSaturn[quote] I don't think its that nuanced. Its just a bunch of patriarchal homophobia. Assuming gay men are obsessed with anal sex (sodomy) and are going to respond to the stimulati of hot angels. Zero lessons to be learned from this horrible story. Lots daughters get Lot drunk in later years and fuck him incestuously to keep their line alive. This is the sexual landscape of a teenager[/quote]
As I said, you can look at it from a variety of angles. But if you don't look at the stories from a real Ten Commandment pov, it is very difficult to understand what the stories are really about.
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and From the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
The entire Bible is about slavery. Spiritual lessons of the devastation of slavery to[i] sin[/i], from the garden of Eden to Jesus being killed for the sins that [i]we[/i] do. God illustrates how we are freed from slavery of sin when we are saved by his grace. We are saved by trusting in Jesus more than our selves, or our daughters, sons, families, boss, or our money. God requires us to give our children to[i] him.[/i] He wants us to give our entire lives to[i] him[/i]. Then and only then will he save our families, our marriages, our relationships.
Abraham in The Bible gave his firstborn to God, so God counted his faith for righteousness. Lot had a choice to choose God or his daughter, so he chose God, so God saved his entire household[i] including [/i]his daughters. God wants us to trust him, and then he will help us. Lot's wife longed for people more than God so God killed her to illustrate in this story how seriously we need to think about our priorities. We will all die because of sin, unless we are saved. Joseph was sold into slavery to show us how God helps the helpless. Joseph loved God, so God made him prime minister of Egypt because Joseph trusted in God, not man.
We have to choose God if we want God to save our families. We can't live for our wife, husband, daughter, or son. That is slavery to sin. We have to give them to God! The Bible is stories of spiritual lessons. So he uses actual slavery in the stories in the Bible to teach us [i]spiritual [/i] truths. Every story in the Bible has a deeper spiritual lesson for us. Every story of slavery is a lesson paralleled to sin. God shows us in every lesson that he can free us and our families from sin. Sin[i] is [/i] slavery. God will help us every time if we trust in him.
I think there are good messages in the Tanakh but that doesn't mean we get to ignore the bad ones. Either it is the word of god or it is not. My contention is that if (for example) this book condones slavery, it's not necessarily the timeless or divine guide to morality that it is touted to be.
lol no i'm not anti-Semitic No i don't think the Bible is prophetic and you can call them lies if you want, i'd call it mythologized history since i don't think (most of it) was written with intent to deceive.
❤️🌲❤️🌲❤️ [c=359E00]This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; but you shall meditate on it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall have good success. Joshua 1:8 KJV[/c]
I can attest it is God's word! The Bible is the most read book in the world, and it makes you successful!
God came down from heaven to show us that he can identify with our helplessness, NO room in the Inn for him. All he wants is our love. He changes us, saves us, gives us peace, hope, and love.
🌟 In every country around the world Sunday people will celebrate Christmas, light candles and say, [b]"thank you for saving me and changing my life, I love you Jesus, my Lord." [/b]🙏
Pikachu Jesus is coming back soon, make sure to be ready!
I have no doubt that you believe that Jesus is returning soon, just like the people he spoke to in Matt 16:28 believed he'd return before their generation passed away, just like the Church of Latter Day Saints have thought for nearly the last two hundred years, just like many people have thought in every generation.
I don't say that to mock you but to put in perspective why i am utterly unconvinced and not at all concerned.
But since this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, i suppose that signals the end of the discussion and we'll just be agreeing to disagree✌️
[quote]You can beat them to within an inch of their life and suffer no consequence[/quote] You actually can beat slaves [b]to death[/b] according to Exodus 21:20-21
They can actually be beaten to death so long as they survive a day or two. So if it takes a day to succumb to their injuries, cool. If they're beaten to immediate death, then the Bible states that it is not okay
@Pikachu [quote]The bible certainly can and has been put to use to justify pretty much whatever a group wants it to.[/quote]
Ben-Gurion only liked the parts that said how wonderful the israelites were and how God promised them the Levant from the Nile to the Euphrates River.
[b][c=BF0000]Since I invoke Torah so often, let me state that I don't personally believe in the God it postulates ... I am not religious, nor were the majority of the early builders of Israel believers. Yet their passion for this land stemmed from the Book of Books ... [The Bible is] the single most important book in my life. David Ben-Gurion [/c][/b]
[b][i][c=BF0000]From the River to the Sea and from the Sea to the River Jordan.[/c][/i][/b]
@Pikachu in a modern world of science, psychology, Artificial intelligence, climate change, and most imporantly, the likely interaction between humans and aliens... the mind of ancient humans can not handle the challenges. They had challenges; shorter lives, health issues, food shortages, battles over land, competition with predators, ice ages, sex practices, new religions, but they were from a different perspective, a different brain.
biblical apologists like to point out the importance of the context of the time and people for whom those books were written when it comes to excusing or justifying certain mistakes or issues but for some reason they don't extend that reasoning to include the points you have mentioned in your post.
[quote]Slavery was accepted in those days! Times context! You can't judge with today's standards. The verse was a LAW in those times! ... Again you can't judge by today's standards. [/quote]
[i]Exactly [/i]my point. How can you take the Bible as a timeless guide from morality with divine source when an unequivocally abhorrent practice like slavery was not only allowed by codified?
There is NO context under which taking virgin girls as sex slaves after you kill their families is ok. There is NO context under which it should be a general rule that you can beat your slave so badly that it takes them days just to stand back up. There is NO context under which it is ok to pass a human being down as property to your children.
Slavery was indeed accepted in those days...why? Why did god make commandments against murder and theft and lying etc but reckoned owning humans as objects was fine and how can we take seriously the moral foundation of document that would support it?
It's also a long, complicated subject about how slavery was actually abolished but that has no bearing on the subject at hand which is that if the Bible is to be held as timeless guide to morality then the flat immorality of slavery which is condoned therein must be sufficiently addressed.
Yes, the Bible contains instructions for chattel slavery as well as slavery which would be more recognizable as indentured servitude. There were different rules for Hebrew slaves and foreign slaves.
That verse isn't just slavery. It's child sex slave trade. Basically it is God approved pedophilia. But like the recent pastor arrest in Missouri, God will forgive anything. Thus they think they are above all human morality. This is known as antinomianism.
When in fact Jesus tells one to obey both man's law as well as God's law in the render unto Caesar verse. Also Romans 2:14-15 hints that God's laws are a reflection of natural law that can not be broken. Which natural law seems much more god like than don't wear mixed fabric bs.
Religion is built by evil people to attract evil people and justify evil by fear mongering people into believing religious people have the backing of a God. And that no human law will touch them.
This makes God just a Lovecraftian Eldritch horror.
