Hello, there. I’ve read the Torah, the Talmud, aswell as the zohar etc. A lot of people seem to think that the Old Testament is all there is to it when it comes to Jewish belief. In actual fact, the Old Testament is a tiny amount. It’s like playing a video game and ignoring any prequels, sequels, literature around it etc
For a quick answer I recommend Jordan Peterson’s biblical lectures, he is really good at taking ideas in the Bible that might seem absurd in the literal sense, or somehow wrong morally and gives a pretty good explanation of them. I could rewatch and talk you through it if you like.
‘So why didn't God create Adam and Eve to be perfect beings with the freedom of choice?’. The idea of ‘perfection’ is a subjective one. For someone to view even themselves as perfect, they would have to be judging themselves based on some external standard. In this case Yahweh. You cannot be perfect and also have freedom of choice as that freedom of conscience, expression etc will lead you to develop a different idea of what is perfect.
From both a biblical perspective,as well as a scientific one (how could everyone fit into one garden if they are all reproducing and never dying?) I think that the garden of Eden is meant to be seen as an allegory, brilliantly laid out in ‘’lecture: Biblical Series II: Genesis 1: Chaos & Order’ (Prof Jordan Peterson, 2017)
I don’t think they were meant to be perfect. Adam was not meant to have been allowed to eat meat, according to the Sanhedrin in 59b of the Talmud:
מיתיבי (בראשית א, כו) ורדו בדגת הים מאי לאו לאכילה לא למלאכה
The Gemara raises an objection to the assertion that eating meat was prohibited to Adam, from the verse: “And have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creeps upon the land” (Genesis 1:28). What, is it not stated with regard to consumption, i.e., doesn’t this verse mean that people may eat the meat of animals? The Gemara answers: No, the verse is referring to using animals for labor.
However, this also happens:
מיתיבי היה ר' יהודה בן תימא אומר אדם הראשון מיסב בגן עדן היה והיו מלאכי השרת צולין לו בשר ומסננין לו יין הציץ בו נחש וראה בכבודו ונתקנא בו התם בבשר היורד מן השמים
The Gemara raises an objection from a baraita to the assertion that eating meat was prohibited to Adam: Rabbi Yehuda ben Teima would say: Adam, the first man, would dine in the Garden of Eden, and the ministering angels would roast meat for him and strain wine for him. The snake glanced at him and saw his glory, and was jealous of him, and for that reason the snake incited him to sin and caused his banishment from the Garden. According to this, evidently Adam would eat meat. The Gemara answers: There the reference is to meat that descended from heaven, which was created by a miracle and was not the meat of animals at all.
So, literally ‘don’t eat meat Adam! Oh I know you’ll like though, so here is some from heaven, it doesn’t count because it’s from heaven.’
As for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then realising they were naked and wanting to cover up, seems a bit crazy right? Not if you look into it a bit more:
Yahweh punishes the transgression of eating the fruit by giving Eve pain in childbirth. This pain is caused by the fact that Homo sapiens developed a brain larger than the other primates, large enough to develop a sense of how actions can effect the future, mortality and so on. This results in a disproportionately large head which causes pain during delivery. In understanding mortality, you understand that you yourself are vulnerable physically, your body victim to damages from the external environment. And you wish to cover up to protect your vulnerability and so you become aware of your nakedness. At the same time that Adam becomes aware of his nakedness/vulnerability he comes aware that other humans (in this case eve) will also have vulnerabilities. Adam has a choice whether or not to exploit the vulnerabilities of Adam, and vice versa, and here arises the knowledge of good and evil.
In order for man to be the very creation god wanted, humans would have to be imperfect morally. Without a concept of evil there cannot be a concept of good. You’d have to be a robot clone in order to be this perfect semblance of god. Now of course, why even create humans in the first place, then? They seem to be doomed to just suffer and engage in evil acts toward one another. I think it’s an allegory of what Christianity teaches in general, just trying to be the best we can in a group dynamic. Gosh I’m going to go on forever, I’m really well versed in this sort of thing. In all societies, secular or religious, there will be a constant wrestle of allowing as much individual freedom as possible, whilst also trying to restrict any individual behaviours which may harm the group as a whole, as possible. In religion, certain individual behaviours seen as detrimental on a group level will be discouraged as ‘sin’. In a secular society this may be ‘hate speech’.
I’m well read in atheist works, i of course read ‘the god delusion’ by professor Richard Dawkins but then immediately read ‘the Dawkins delusion’ by professor alistair McGrath. The argument by Christopher Hitchens was that ‘god created us sick and demanded us to be better’. I understand the argument. However, I think this dynamic is true of any society. Your individual desires will always go against the group, it’s why often our desires are called ‘fantasies’. We are inheritantly going to be sinful in a religious context, and from a 21rst century secular context yes I’m sure deep down many of us are an ‘ist’ or a ‘phobe’, or generally just selfish. We have strong individual desires worked into us over millennia of evolution. We are the physical manifestation of our genes and are hardwired to get as many resources and mates and other powers required to propagate that dna. We experience things as individuals (hence both scientists and religious types anthropomorphise things as it makes them easier to understand) and expressions of that dna. However, with that increased brain size we learnt to form societies which require a code of good and evil and this brings us back to genesis.
I’m happy to chat about this.
Also see: Professor Jordan P Peterson’s biblical lecture series,
Professor Edward Dutton in videos where he mentions religion, race or woke.
Richard Dawkins ‘The Selfish Gene’
I could recommend more but people will attack me. As with religion, we need grand narratives that explain the world it simple terms, in narratives. And such models always need a group that is evil. So I’m sure some will call me negative names if I give all my sources so feel free to pm me.
