@sillyfire Why can't we be Fair to both? Trump having served two consecutive terms and handed the reigns over to another Trump, and another Trump, and another Trump, and another Trump will have created a Dynasty and be venerated as "Father of Our Country."
While Obama (whom I regretfully voted for his first term) will be respected as "Father of Our Cuntry."
Now excuse me while I assemble some promotional items to help out the Trump campaign. I'm a Latino and I approve of this message. Have a nice day!
@Carver No words to describe on how true this is, the one about the statues and construction that symbolizes our long way of civilization. Our nation is great. 👍
@Carver Thanks. And a racist wouldn't agree otherwise. Sometimes, not a racist. Also, without text or statues, how would we tell other natives about our country, our next gen children, etc.? I didn't get the question at first, but I know why, now.
I've noticed some people contrast having statues of people who did bad as well as good two or three centuries ago, with having no statues of people like Hitler, Stalin and Mao who did far more bad than good, only two or three generations ago.
(To be fair Chairman Mao's regime did bring social and public-services improvements to China, but it was also every bit as ruthless and callous as the others'.)
Those three created gigantic death-tolls in pursuit of utterly inhumane dogma, with Stalin's and Mao's regimes each killing far more than Hitler's - a fact quietly ignored by some who do, rightly, condemn what became called the Nazis' "Holocaust".
Hitler expounded his theories in his [i]Mein Kampf[/i] (My Struggle'). Stalin ran a system based in principle on such books as [i]Das Kapital[/i], by the 19C by the political-theoretician Karl Marx - who rests in peace in a cemetery in London. Mao launched his dreadful "Cultural Revolution" pogrom on the back of his own ideas published in what became nicknamed his [i]Little Red Book[/i].
Meanwhile for ten centuries and more various countries or societies have been at each others' throats over ancient books with titles like [i]The Holy Bible [/i], [i]The Torah[/i] and [i]The Q'ran[/i]. Not only killing each other for following the "wrong" book, or for following any of them, or for following none of them, but even for following the same book but in the "wrong" way. If they don't support violence they just call each other idiots on sites like this.
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So, statues now and books later?
Well, some of the more strident iconclasts might like that idea, mirrored by the amateur dictators among university students who block guest lecturers of supposedly "wrong" views.
You can read the political tracts[i]Das Kapital, Mein Kampf,[/i] and possibly still Chairman Mao's [i]Little Red Book[/i]. You can read the far older, religious works. It does NOT necessarily mean you will support any of their ideas, but at least you will understand them more deeply by knowing what their [i]authors [/i], not critics, really said.
Similarly, you might not agree with what some public figure believes, but unless you give that figure the courtesy of reading or listening to him or her, and knowing something of the context and background, how do you know what they believe? Or would you rather go by what their opponents want you to think are those views?
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Destroying statues might gain the un-analytical some momentary self-satisfaction and even their picture in the papers, but that's all. Whilst it is right we should know and understand past wrongs without "celebrating" them, and certainly endeavour to not repeat them; iconoclasm generally is merely negative rather than positive.
Destroying books or barring lectures is far, far more dangerous and insidious. For it is only by knowing what people really had to say for themselves, and why, not what their critics tell you to think they said, that you can understand properly their roles in the very real and very fractious chains of events, agreements and divisions that are History.
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I have not read five of the works I cited and cannot recall when I last read any of the Bible (though I sometimes hear extracts on the radio). I know their broad aims though, and my book choice is neither political nor religious. It is certainly not influenced by any other person's choice or diktat. Yet it is my right to read them even though I may disagree with them in their own ways - indeed my support for that choice ought suggest I am not about to become a raving Communist, neo-Nazi, para-Christian cultist or ISIS member.
Sadly, there are some even in our free societies that allow discussions like this, who think that wrong. Ones who would condemn at least the three political tracts for being written or adopted by despots and bigots, but also seem to think that knowing and understanding them shows axiomatic support.
Therefore, they say, you must not read the "wrong" books, must not attend the "wrong" speaker's lecture.
@ArishMell @ArishMell I can only admire what you have written and explained so well. I wonder how many contributors will actually read and try to understand what you mean. HISTORY is so important, perspective through the ages is so important. Without these 'touch-stone' people have no plan from which to build their future and; as it is often said: HISTORY repeats itself.... destroying STATUES is one of the markers toward that repetition.
Just think: When the Greeks and Romans had their hey-day, they had written works too... what happened to them? Well... they either were eaten by bookworms, lost in fires or tossed in fires. THE THINGS that we do have from their civilization are the STATUES and BUSTS that give us a concept of the countenance of Sophocles, of Aristotle, of Socrates, of Julius Caesar and even - of Caligula! Some were good people, some were bad, but they all lived and had an effect on the world. [b]For those who don't know:[/b] There is a bust of Hitler and of Joseph Goebbels in the Schloss Artstetten in Melk Austria. The Schloss was used as Hitler's headquarters when he was in that area. Instead of destroying them, the curators simply turned them to face the wall - a respectful act of disrespect!!
@JollyRoger Thank you JollyRoger, and I agree with Revenant's judgement on what you wrote.
I suppose the idea of simply moving statues that [i]appear[/i] suddenly to have been a target to museums is somewhat similar to turning the two Nazi leaders' effigies to face the wall, but I think instead the idea is not to half-hide them, but to display them with explanations of how they were and what they did.
In my own area is a recently-built monument that goes some way to addressing the balance. It is to Thomas Foxwell Buxton, an MP and leading campaigner in ending slavery.
Can the #MeToo movement tear down all the MLK statues? He cheated on his wife Coretta over 40 times. Some of those were while engaged in orgies. Think maybe he abused his power over those women the way Weinstein did? Oh and by the way, he watched women get raped in his presence and did nothing to stop it or report it. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Let's judge statues by the content of their character shall we?
@SW-User Ok then. Muhammad owned slaves. He also had a 6 year old bride whom he fucked when she was 9. Obviously he was an out of the closet pedophile too.
Which Mosques do you recommend that BLM and #MeToo burn down first? Or is is only Jesus it's ok to hate?
SW-User
Before I get too deep with this... Do you live in the US?
Burn all religious institutions down. Fuck them all!
We shouldn’t need a supreme deity to tell us what is right. Nothing positive came from a belief in a god.
All forms of slavery is wrong. The issue in the southern states was a bit more complex...the rationalizations for it were inexcusable.. The use of science of the time and the Bible to justify the practice Is beyond stupid.
Here's another one. Those Jakartans are really ahead of the curve...
Workers remove the statue of President Barack Obama as a 10-year-old boy from a Menteng Park in Jakarta, Indonesia late Sunday, Feb. 14, 2010. The statue was removed overnight due to a public backlash and locked in a classroom on Monday of a nearby elementary school that the U.S. president attended as a child.
Not the same. Statues are in people's faces, working subconsciously to make one group feel superior and the other inferior. Can't avoid them.So it feeds racism which is something that must die.
If you were beaten as a child, last thing you need is a daily reminder.
It’s a shell game. But that’s what Biden’s people are good at. What I love about people who think these things are so funny is when THEIR house gets looted and burned. Then they go crying for the police. Pathetic. But “pathetic” sums them up pretty well. @revenant
Rather off the beam. People can and do eschew technology and anything modern. Examples: Amish, Mennonites, and people living off the grid. Nobody forces anybody else to enjoy technology. One may always opt out. These topics are completely unrelated. @OMEGA @OMEGA
So here's this hypocrite who never worked a day in his life, lived on the dole of his only friend who housed and fed him at an apartment his capitalist father owned who also owned a factory, claiming to speak for workers.
According to his wife, he only took a bath once a year and said she couldn't stand him. Perhaps his middle name should've been Skid.
Black Lives Matter protestors vandalized and tore down a statue of Col. Hans Christian Heg. Here's why that was absolutely ignorant of them: Heg was an immigrant from Norway who fought and died fighting, against slavery! [image deleted]Burn Loot Murder y’all!
Um, noooo. The statues were never removed before. So your argument is empty, built on false premise - and highly speculative.@FairyGirlGemma @FairyGirlGemma
@revenant This is the last time I’m answering. Firstly I don’t know why you’re moaning at me it’s not my fault, secondly Britain is not China and Korea, thirdly I did read history thank you
Books educate. Statues celebrate. Key difference. We should learn about the southern traitors and how the North demolished them. We do not need to celebrate their treachery.
No, I've never wanted to get rid of statues of "those people"..in general. Neither do I think getting rid of some of them, or relocating them, is "rewriting history". I am highly opposed to getting rid of, or in any way censoring books. Books are available as a choice, however, to read...or not. Statues are definitely more of an in [i]your face sort[/i] of thing, seems like. I have no trouble grasping the [i]why[/i], of some people wanting to get rid of certain statues.
@Thinkerbell [quote]And Colombia will have to change its name too. Oh, wait... that would be Hispanophobic. 😨[/quote] Don't worry, down here near the border we're called Hispandex. Hispañola and Colombia are not snowflakes and don't consider that a [i]raaaaycist [/i]epithet.
@FlowersNButterflies Jefferson is not on the 20, it’s Jackson. And he definitely needs to be removed for what he did to the Native Americans. Tubman is a good choice To replace him though
@zerofuks2give If Jackson hadn't done what he did those native americans would have ALL been murdered by local whites. Jackson was a hero who saved lives.
I say: You've provoked some liberal non-thinkers with this!
My line: What is the purpose of living a human life (most of us here are doing that) if you erase all the errors and only keep the good parts (the ones that are CONVENIENT to remember? Would you also suggest the memorial to the Holocaust at Auschwitz also be destroyed? Those things, including pictures(statues) of the people who did wrong should be kept. Now... I'm not saying that these people need to be glorified, but: Why not describe what they did, how harmful it was and the politics behind their activity on a SEPARATE plaque so that future generations and visitors from foreign countries know the evil has been addressed and redressed. Out of sight, out of mind... not for glory, but for guidance to not repeat a horror.
@JollyRoger We Americans, particularly those under 45 haven't a clue as to the true historical account of the Civil War and frankly neither did I until I homeschooled one of my sons for a good many years.
If these naive, ill-informed neophytes believe The Civil War was fought over the human and civil rights of slaves,then they are sadly mistaken.. It was fought to end slavocracy, that much is true. But it wasn't fought from the perspective of Civil Rights. at least mostly it wasn't.
Funny thing is that what will that accomplish? Also, some statues were people that were abolitionists so this entire bringing down statues "movement" is a sham.
@chubbysteve99 Lenin and Stalin are idolized in Russia. I dont believe they should be. Lenin maybe in that he lead the revolution, Stalin defeated Hitler in WW2. Its tricky. But they werent traitors.
America can do what she wants but I do eye rolls when people nit pic and calling it racist like some housing companies won't call the parents bedroom master bedroom
@ArishMell My thought of concern. How far will it be allowed to go before a stand is taken. There are factions on either side waiting on the proverbial "first shot" to be fired--- and if any think the Nation of Islam isn't armed to the teeth-- then they'll be the ones gone in the first round...
I have seen several political pundits predict that tRump, rather than risk losing the election and taking down the Republican party - worse legacy than any prior president - because he can't face losing - to quit. Of course, unless he is out of the country at that time, he would be facing real criminal charges, like tax evasion, tax fraud and all the sexual assault cases. Campaign fraud, like Cohen went to prison for, and more. But first he will pardon Stone. @cycleman @cycleman
Yes. And as a country we need to join, not divide. These statues are unnecessary, and those who can't understand their harm, probably have low understanding in many areas. @LeopoldBloom
Now excuse me while I assemble some promotional items to help out the Trump campaign. I'm a Latino and I approve of this message. 
So here's this hypocrite who never worked a day in his life, lived on the dole of his only friend who housed and fed him at an apartment his capitalist father owned who also owned a factory, claiming to speak for workers. 
According to his wife, he only took a bath once a year and said she couldn't stand him. Perhaps his middle name should've been Skid.
