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reflectingmonkey · 51-55, M
well, ok. after 1.34 minutes i had to stop because of the multiple misleading concepts. first of all, he assumes that God is the only reference point so without god we have no reference point . its totally false. we invented the notion that there was a god and that that god is the reference for what is good and not good but the paradox here is that god was invented by us so whatever notions of good and evil this idea of god has , we put it there, we made the idea of god that we have so the morality and lessons of god were writen in books by humans, we are the ultimate source of any moral idea. as for objective, subjective, no reference points, we have empathy and social consensus as reference points. most mamals have a kind of code of behavior which they follow to avoid trouble with others of their kind, living together requires us to act in a way that is accepted by others. but does that make us moral? moral is making those values into personality traits, that it is part of who you are, " i do not steal" , this is just part of who I am. Immanuel Kant had an interesting idea about "acting morally". he said there are 3 reasons why humans act morally : 1) to be seen by others acting morally, 2)out of fear of autority or punishment and 3) because someone has actual moral autonomy, that he chooses to act this way because he loves his fellow man, he has empathy and compassion for them. Kant then concluded that the first two are not actually moral people, only the third one is because deep down he act the way he feels. but shouldn't that include that acting good to please god or to avoid damnation is part of the first two moral categories so is not a true moral act. maybe, only an atheist can claim to be a moral person because he does it because he want to , not to please god or for some after-life reward. one thing that always gives me chills is when christians say things like " well if you don't believe in god why arent you out there stealing and killing and raping?" , that is frightning because it means that deep down its what they really want to be doing but don't because of god !!! so spiritually they are still living with their folks , trying any way they can to break the rules. still needing to fear dad in order to act good. maybe adulthood is moral autonomy.
N.B:, OMG, just went to 2:39, "god IS good , he is the standard of moral values" , ouch !! ok, where do we start: creating two creature, implanting in them curiosity, then telling them not to do something , knowing very well they will, then punishing them for doing it. Playing mind games much? the great flood, killed most of humanity because he was... disapointed in us. punishing people with eternal damnation ? the story of Lots wife who got turned to salt because she also got curious for a moment. A good person all her life, one second of curiosity, death penalty. seems reasonable? maybe we still have war and injustice because our "personification of good" is actually a tyrant so this system creates people who are naturally flawed morally. in the U.S. its the religious people who are against universal health care haha
N.B:, OMG, just went to 2:39, "god IS good , he is the standard of moral values" , ouch !! ok, where do we start: creating two creature, implanting in them curiosity, then telling them not to do something , knowing very well they will, then punishing them for doing it. Playing mind games much? the great flood, killed most of humanity because he was... disapointed in us. punishing people with eternal damnation ? the story of Lots wife who got turned to salt because she also got curious for a moment. A good person all her life, one second of curiosity, death penalty. seems reasonable? maybe we still have war and injustice because our "personification of good" is actually a tyrant so this system creates people who are naturally flawed morally. in the U.S. its the religious people who are against universal health care haha
@reflectingmonkey That's about the same time frame I stopped it as well, I knew exactly where it was heading, read my own comment for clarification why.
PowerofStories · 61-69, M
How does God's nature present an objective reference point for moral values? This requires a huge leap of faith to accept that God's nature is objective and moral. Once you accept the conclusion, the discussion is over.
It's like the old joke about the economist stranded on a desert island without food, when a can of vegetables washes ashore. Will the economist starve? Not if you allow the economist to assume there is a can opener.
If you define God to be objective and moral, you are engaging in circular reasoning and proving nothing. And who made you God to make this fundamental assumption that governs the universe for eternity? You have created God in your own image.
It's like the old joke about the economist stranded on a desert island without food, when a can of vegetables washes ashore. Will the economist starve? Not if you allow the economist to assume there is a can opener.
If you define God to be objective and moral, you are engaging in circular reasoning and proving nothing. And who made you God to make this fundamental assumption that governs the universe for eternity? You have created God in your own image.
OogieBoogie · F
Yes.
If there was no god, theres still consciousness, there's still community cohesion and civil rules that make society function.
Stating that we need God to have an objective view point to know what is right and what is wrong doesn't make sense, since god is subjective.
As shown by the laws of some countries.
Take stoning women: some consider it ok due to their religious laws abiding by their god...
... yet most people feel its wrong, even ones within that religion.
So yes. Morality and ethics arent dependent on god. They are dependent more on empathy and conscience.
Of which not all people pay attention to, or have.
Which is one reason why we have religion.
If there was no god, theres still consciousness, there's still community cohesion and civil rules that make society function.
Stating that we need God to have an objective view point to know what is right and what is wrong doesn't make sense, since god is subjective.
As shown by the laws of some countries.
Take stoning women: some consider it ok due to their religious laws abiding by their god...
... yet most people feel its wrong, even ones within that religion.
So yes. Morality and ethics arent dependent on god. They are dependent more on empathy and conscience.
Of which not all people pay attention to, or have.
Which is one reason why we have religion.
ABCDEF7 · M
You don't need God to tell you what is right and wrong.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
Everybody is good without God. Ask me why.
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LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Bel6EQUJ5 I asked you which position the person who made the video took, and you wouldn't tell me even that. What was I supposed to think?
By the way, agnosticism is not exactly intellectually honest, either.
By the way, agnosticism is not exactly intellectually honest, either.
@LordShadowfire Are you serious? Agnosticism is THE most honest position a person can take, because it's an admission to not knowing the answer to the question of God's existence.
Here's my position: I don't have one.
Here's my position: I don't have one.
LordShadowfire · 46-50, M
@Bel6EQUJ5 Well, here's mine. If there's an all-knowing God who is also all-powerful, he's definitely not all good. And if he's all good and all-powerful, he's not all knowing. And If he's all good and all knowing, he's not all-powerful.
CorvusBlackthorne · 100+, M
[media=https://youtu.be/Z1BzP1wr234]
If you need a deity in order to be good and moral, you are neither good, nor moral.
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@Bel6EQUJ5 There is far more proof that we were visited by extraterrestrials than any existence of supreme deities. How do we not know that "Jehovah" might not actually be from a planet near Betelgeuse, hmmm?
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