I agree with RisingVirginia,
If it means that it is alive and it's human(not necessarily a person yet), then technically speaking taking that life is murder.

I can see where you're coming from though.

@icecoldzt

I'm sorry you see this as me forcing you. I'm just trying to get you to think about it.

You say there is no difference between a human and a person.
So i've given you an example of something that is genetically human with nothing of the inner mental complexity that is part of what we are.

Just humour me and answer that question. Is it that you don't know the answer? You can say that.

@icecoldzt

...yes. That's true.
I'm not saying otherwise. Pointing out that the quality of being alive is not confined to a human, much less a person.

I don't dispute that a fetus is genetically human. I'm contesting the idea that is a person.
Do you understand the distinction i am making?

@Adaydreambeliever

It definitely is part of the definition. But a car and a plane both have "vehicle"as part of their definition but they're certainly not the same thing.

I think i disagree though that a person must be human. What if we encounter intelligent, sophisticated alien life on our level? Wouldn't they be people?

@icecoldzt

lol well that is preciously the question i'm trying to explore with you.
I think that the label has much more involved in it than DNA.
I think that things like self-awareness, morality, choice, continuity and community make a person.

@icecoldzt

But life does not make something a person. A housefly is alive.
Are you then of the opinion that all it takes to be a person is to be genetically human?

I believe that the soul may enter the body while it's a fetus, making it a person, and therefore it is murder. Or at least if you don't want to call it murder of a person, it's definitely murder of a potential life. Which is almost just as bad in my opinion. I think if people don't want babies, they should keep their legs closed or be prepared to raise a child or give it up for adoption if they do get pregnant. Just my two cents. I respect everyone's opinion.

@RisingVirginia

Well i don't believe in a soul but of course we can't prove one doesn't exist so i can respect that view of personhood

You really like going that one step beyond reasonable. If everyone who refuses to agree in the end with your own personal idea of what the answer should be is small minded, what does that make you when you won't bend your ideas to fit ours?

@icecoldzt

Sorry, could you say explicitly what that answer is? I don't want to assume the wrong thing

@DimSim

Does having a heartbeat make it a person?
Doesn't that just mean it's alive?
A toad has a heartbeat too

I already said enough. If you did not understand, read it again. If you still don't understand, it's no longer my problem

@Serenitree

Did you not understand the petri dish example? If you maintain that human and person are identical terms then human cells in a dish must count as a person.

So i'll ask again, do you feel that there is no difference between personhood and simply being genetically human?
Is the only thing that makes you a person the fact that you are a human?
If your consciousness existed as it is now in the body of another animal would you not be a person?

@Serenitree

If you're referring to my conversation with icecoldtz then i have to point out that i'm not demanding she agree with me, i'm demanding she examine her ideas more closely.

Perhaps you could cause me to do the same.

Maybe you would like to answer a few of those questions i asked on her behalf.
Unless you'd just rather continue trying to put me in my place...

What is the difference between a human and a person?

Refusing to philosphize is not refusal to examine evidence. Ideas are not necessarily evidences they are opinions. I don't have to examine opinions because I respect other people's opinion, I don't question them. As I said before, present solid facts and then we'll talk. You are presenting me with opinion which are not valid facts.

Well no, the word murder has to do with humans not animals. So I agree aha.

@icecoldzt

Don't be afraid to think through a subject. Don't shy away from examining your perceptions.
I'm trying to get you to consider what qualities might make a person other than being a human.

If you successfully placed a toad's brain (or even just its conciousness) into a human body, that body is genetically human. Is it a person?

Does the fetus have a heartbeat?

Like I said. My life is already complicated as it is. I do not wish to add more nonsense to make it more complicated. I understand things the way I understand them, if others say otherwise then show me hard fact evidence that what I believe is wrong and we'll talk about it. Other than that? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is mine.

@Serenitree

Not at all. We had just got into this area of the discussion when people stopped replying, yourself included when i pressed you about your view of what constitutes personhood.

No. I left because you stopped making sense. You began looking for someone to say that person and human are not synonymous. I stuck around for that. But then you started talking about stuff in a Petri dish.

http://www.wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?book=Student&va=person

@icecoldzt

Dude, i'm not presenting evidence or opinions!
I'm asking you a question so we can examine what you really think about personhood.
All i'm asking for right now is an answer.

So: Toad mind, human body. Person?

@icecoldzt

If it's not a refusal to answer then why won't you answer the question?
lol

And I don't know what else to call you but small-minded.


You are so resistant to examining ideas in different ways or discussing an idea in anything but a superficial way.
I don't know why you think me small-minded for being baffled by your unwillingness to engage intellectually.

But i don't really want to get in a fight here. I was just speaking my mind.

Common sense dictates that a housefly is born out of a housefly. A human is born out of a human.

@icecoldzt

Well then give me your opinion on the question i asked.

Would that be a person?

A fetus is not a person? As far as I know it is already a person, maybe it's not yet fully developed but it already has a life

I thought we did this topic to death yesterday.

You really aren't worth it. I won't bother you again. You're right. My mind is small. To small to accommodate manipulators

You already just said it is an alien. I don't like making simple things complicated.

My answer would be the same.

i say its not murder.. but i sorta agree i think that being human is the fundamental requirement for being a person

@icecoldzt

Well what if you met an alien that was every bit as intelligent, self-aware, emotionally complex etc. as you?

Not human.
Is he a person?

@icecoldzt

lol i understood perfectly. It was a refusal to answer.
Not sure why you're so hesitant to do so.

I must admit i've never met anyone who was so content and apparently proud to embrace being small-minded

Dude you are forcing me to answer a question that I have already answered and present me with nonsense to force me to answer that way you want me to.

To be fair, I wouldn't think it right to kill a toad unless for a purpose either. Haha

No it wasn't refusal to answer.

Proud to be small minded? Wow, you are the one who can't accept my answer as it is and I am the one you're calling small minded. I hope someone end up giving you a mirror on Christmas, that might be a good treat for you. Good day :D

@RisingVirginia

lol me neither. But i wouldn't consider it murder if i did

@Serenitree

"Not worth muh time!"

No kidding?! Seems to be your catch phrase.
And i never said you were small-minded.
Plainly lazy and combative, but i've no reason yet to call you small minded.

Off you go then...

Well, for me they are one and the same. Philosophizing is not my thing. I agree that philosophy makes sense most of the time but too much of it makes some people look stupid.