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Abstraction · 61-69, M
No it isn't.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." Adam Smith.
People misread Smith. That's not capitalism - that's commerce. That's not selfishness either. Self-interest isn't selfishness. Breathing isn't selfish. Earning a living isn't selfish.
Studies show that - counter-intuitively - most people are not selfish. (Studies also show that we incorrectly perceive most people as selfish.)
Capitalism is the capture of ordinary commerce to put the profits into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. They use their 'capital' to control and dominate.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." Adam Smith.
People misread Smith. That's not capitalism - that's commerce. That's not selfishness either. Self-interest isn't selfishness. Breathing isn't selfish. Earning a living isn't selfish.
Studies show that - counter-intuitively - most people are not selfish. (Studies also show that we incorrectly perceive most people as selfish.)
Capitalism is the capture of ordinary commerce to put the profits into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. They use their 'capital' to control and dominate.
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Abstraction · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve Agree on your point. It's that mix of corruption and lack of transparency that hurts our countries.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Abstraction Thanks, my friend. Most of us are a lot closer than we think. I always take the view that everyone wants the same basic things that I and everyone else wants - shelter, food, simple entertainment, companionship etc and that we can bond on those mutual needs and work together. But too many people invert that and say "this one area where we disagree, that means we cant bond over anything else".
A big issue is international capitalism. You have very little investment into the wellbeing of native workers if you can just pack up shop when things turn sour and move to another country. I see the people I employ not as workers or employees, and certainly not below me, but as a group of similar people working together to create a product and do so at a profit level so we can grow. If they decide to start a venture of their own, good on them, I'd even be happy to help.
Could you tell me more about this special deals? Just genuinely curious as to what you refer to. Cheers :)
A big issue is international capitalism. You have very little investment into the wellbeing of native workers if you can just pack up shop when things turn sour and move to another country. I see the people I employ not as workers or employees, and certainly not below me, but as a group of similar people working together to create a product and do so at a profit level so we can grow. If they decide to start a venture of their own, good on them, I'd even be happy to help.
Could you tell me more about this special deals? Just genuinely curious as to what you refer to. Cheers :)
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve 'Special deals' might mean winning large government contracts like this one - no other company had the opportunity to compete for the contract - and then they increased the costs by multi-millions of dollars.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/21/liberal-party-donors-revenue-from-uncontested-contracts-for-offshore-processing-rises-to-15bn
"The original contract for “provision of garrison and welfare services on Nauru” awarded to Canstruct was worth just $8m in October 2017 but this was amended almost immediately – increased by 4,500% to $385m just a month after being signed."
It might mean in response to climate change promises giving $50 million handouts to gas companies to help them start new fossil fuel projects. A little ironic, don't you think? Now is this free enterprise or welfare for party donors. Yes they give a few tens of thousands or so to the party (often difficult to trace pathway) and make 50 million in return. That's not investment, that's graft.
https://theconversation.com/the-morrison-governments-50-million-gas-handout-undermines-climate-targets-and-does-nothing-to-improve-energy-security-180247
Meanwhile, Rupert Murdoch's media complains about welfare for the poor. People battling to get their children clothed and fed.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/21/liberal-party-donors-revenue-from-uncontested-contracts-for-offshore-processing-rises-to-15bn
"The original contract for “provision of garrison and welfare services on Nauru” awarded to Canstruct was worth just $8m in October 2017 but this was amended almost immediately – increased by 4,500% to $385m just a month after being signed."
It might mean in response to climate change promises giving $50 million handouts to gas companies to help them start new fossil fuel projects. A little ironic, don't you think? Now is this free enterprise or welfare for party donors. Yes they give a few tens of thousands or so to the party (often difficult to trace pathway) and make 50 million in return. That's not investment, that's graft.
https://theconversation.com/the-morrison-governments-50-million-gas-handout-undermines-climate-targets-and-does-nothing-to-improve-energy-security-180247
Meanwhile, Rupert Murdoch's media complains about welfare for the poor. People battling to get their children clothed and fed.
revenant · F
@Alison Parents have always been priorities even in those community/family based arrangements. Aunts, uncles, you name it come second , third and so on.
Kids had cousins by those uncles and aunts you are mentioning and those cousins veered towards their own parents first.
It is normal for a child to expect love and care from his/her own parents first if those are present.
What you are writing sounds based on some ideological theories about " what should be" instead of reality, kibbutz experiments. The ideas you are presenting are old hat, have not proven themselves and seemed to be revived by some antiquated professors.
Kids had cousins by those uncles and aunts you are mentioning and those cousins veered towards their own parents first.
It is normal for a child to expect love and care from his/her own parents first if those are present.
What you are writing sounds based on some ideological theories about " what should be" instead of reality, kibbutz experiments. The ideas you are presenting are old hat, have not proven themselves and seemed to be revived by some antiquated professors.
Peaceandnamaste · 26-30, F
@pianoplayingsteve Bonobos are matriarchal primates and we share 99% of our DNA with them.
https://qz.com/1033621/scientists-assumed-that-patriarchy-was-only-natural-bonobos-proved-them-wrong
Patriarchy is not natural to humans.
https://qz.com/1033621/scientists-assumed-that-patriarchy-was-only-natural-bonobos-proved-them-wrong
Patriarchy is not natural to humans.
Peaceandnamaste · 26-30, F
@Alison Also most Hunter gatherers were egalitarian, both men, the women and children also hunted and gathered.
[media=https://youtu.be/VANvh-bA-BU]
[media=https://youtu.be/VANvh-bA-BU]
BohemianBabe · M
BohemianBabe · M
@pianoplayingsteve We're talking about the means of production here. Not like your couch or laptop.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@BohemianBabe Complex topic.
BohemianBabe · M
@pianoplayingsteve So is ya butt.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@ninalanyon "don't have to rely simply on the accidents of the few members of your group being friendly and helpful." I would rather help raise up the individuals of the small group who have made mistakes, who can then in turn help me with my mistakes, than just ditch them for someone new out of convenience.
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
@pianoplayingsteve That's great when it works. I take it you have never been the one in a small class who has been shunned or excluded.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@ninalanyon Yes, I have. I have a severe deformity that was very noticeable as a child, and then ontop of that probably the worst acne someone has ever had, my face is now incredibly scarred up and I still get bad acne at 30. I know what it's like to be, feel and treated differently. Not to mention how exclusionary certain people can be if you dont agree with them politically on every issue in existence, as if it's an unquestionable religion to them.
SteelHands · 61-69, M
Capitalism is an awareness that to get something and keep it, you need reward incentives rather than penalty incentives, for all to seek to become affluent it takes many a hierarchy within more hierarchies, and a proper tension between competition and cooperation.
Small minds don't understand why. I suspect it's because they never really had to compete and they never learned how to cooperate.
Marx was a spoilt brat with a big yap whos father was well aware of what a bum he was.
Small minds don't understand why. I suspect it's because they never really had to compete and they never learned how to cooperate.
Marx was a spoilt brat with a big yap whos father was well aware of what a bum he was.
SteelHands · 61-69, M
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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@SteelHands Tell me without telling me you don't understand capitalism.
SteelHands · 61-69, M
Id block you again but I see now you're incorrigible. Make your last parting comment pathetic little bug.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@DeWayfarer What do animals do then? Create socialised animal health care? Tax a portion of their resources? Enact collectivised communication laws? Have socialised schools?
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve
Irrelevant.
I'm saying that our own behaviors are a result of nature. And you are attempting to interpret my words to make animals humans.
Even animals evolve to a degree, where some are more like us socially then other animals.
If you don't believe in evolution... well you have limited yourself to religion.
I believe religion was the direct result of a minority attempting to control the majority.
That's effectively capitalism at its worst. Because that's what capitalism does. Capitalism is an extension of religion as a means to control the majority.
They can't effectively control through religion, therefore capitalism is just as good.
Control through multiple methods is still control.
Nature doesn't attempt to control. Nor do animals.
Only humans do.
Even a weasel, which is known for thievery, only steals what it can use.
Not so humans! And especially not so capitalists!
The waste in capitalism is prevalent in it. It's an inseparable part of capitalism. Yet nature never wastes either. Everything gets recycled if it was made by nature.
So a capitalist steals unrelentlessly from nature, yet turns it into things that can't be easily recycled. Not by man, nor by nature itself.
Irrelevant.
I'm saying that our own behaviors are a result of nature. And you are attempting to interpret my words to make animals humans.
Even animals evolve to a degree, where some are more like us socially then other animals.
If you don't believe in evolution... well you have limited yourself to religion.
I believe religion was the direct result of a minority attempting to control the majority.
That's effectively capitalism at its worst. Because that's what capitalism does. Capitalism is an extension of religion as a means to control the majority.
They can't effectively control through religion, therefore capitalism is just as good.
Control through multiple methods is still control.
Nature doesn't attempt to control. Nor do animals.
Only humans do.
Even a weasel, which is known for thievery, only steals what it can use.
Not so humans! And especially not so capitalists!
The waste in capitalism is prevalent in it. It's an inseparable part of capitalism. Yet nature never wastes either. Everything gets recycled if it was made by nature.
So a capitalist steals unrelentlessly from nature, yet turns it into things that can't be easily recycled. Not by man, nor by nature itself.
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TheOneyouwerewarnedabout · 46-50, MVIP
MarkPaul · 26-30, M
@basilfawlty89 Er... no. That is not how it worked... except in the comic books.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@MarkPaul er, yes it did.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/primitive-communism
You once again prove your lack of credentials. Trade doesn't mean capitalism. Private ownership of the means of production and wage labour is capitalism. Congratulations on proving you know nothing of economic theory. Keep spouting bullshit and I'm gonna tag an actual economist on here to school you.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/primitive-communism
You once again prove your lack of credentials. Trade doesn't mean capitalism. Private ownership of the means of production and wage labour is capitalism. Congratulations on proving you know nothing of economic theory. Keep spouting bullshit and I'm gonna tag an actual economist on here to school you.
SatyrService · M
i WIll watch that.. but before i do..
No capitalism is not human nature, those that think it is have a very narrow view of human behavior, and probably dont understand what capitalism IS or can do.
it gets too confused with victory in a zero sum game,, business seen as a form of conflict, where the most ruthless will be the victors ( see the game of monopoly, ) yet capitalism, can be a vibrantly consensual way to exchange need for needs
as such voluntary exchange IS a part of human nature, predating capitalism by millinia.
i will go watch now, should it be not too much time and will return and edit this responce in reflection
No capitalism is not human nature, those that think it is have a very narrow view of human behavior, and probably dont understand what capitalism IS or can do.
it gets too confused with victory in a zero sum game,, business seen as a form of conflict, where the most ruthless will be the victors ( see the game of monopoly, ) yet capitalism, can be a vibrantly consensual way to exchange need for needs
as such voluntary exchange IS a part of human nature, predating capitalism by millinia.
i will go watch now, should it be not too much time and will return and edit this responce in reflection
Oster1 · M
Of course it is!
Oster1 · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oster1 · M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Maybe next time, Pix!!!
Oster1 · M
revenant · F
Human nature is not communist anyway, not in the sense you mean. Commerce has always existed and so has competition in all fields.
Immediate family, extended family, tribe have always been the motivations of human beings.
Immediate family, extended family, tribe have always been the motivations of human beings.
revenant · F
@Gloomy and Ms Humphrey is a very reliable and knowledgeable human is she ?
i would say people did just like they are still doing nowadays : helping each other. I will help you with your land and in return you will give me a cow or whatever.
People have been doing exchanges of services and goods forever.*
i would say people did just like they are still doing nowadays : helping each other. I will help you with your land and in return you will give me a cow or whatever.
People have been doing exchanges of services and goods forever.*
justanothername · 51-55, M
Capitalism is the opposite of substance living. Unless you are a knuckle dragging Republican it’s the preferred modern way of living.
FreestyleArt · 31-35, M
Not perfect but it works for both sides. Only one side takes over Capitalism to change it.
Could be socialism who knows
Could be socialism who knows
chrisCA · M
The negative aspects of it are.
OogieBoogie · F
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pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
Depends, if it's an aspect of human nature you like, then you'll claim it has nothing to do with the system of capitalism, and vice versa.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Gloomy How does capitalism remove individuality?
Gloomy · F
@pianoplayingsteve To facilitate consumerism, certain desires must be manufactured. Obsessions with appearance and status symbols do not exist by default, but must be conditioned into the world view and priorities of individuals. A degree of individuality is immediately suppressed, as to truly live according to ones own unique beliefs would be to live in defiance of the desires that stimulate economic growth.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Gloomy I'll grant you that the current iteration of celebrity worship is based on capitalism, and it is ridiculous. However, the idea of having symbols of status, or to revere someone to the point of worship, is found in every system humans have created, as humans are tribal animals.
"A degree of individuality is immediately suppressed" in every form of society, some degree of individuality is suppressed as every society is a weighing of the needs of the individual against the needs of the group as a whole.
"as to truly live according to ones own unique beliefs would be to live in defiance of the desires that stimulate economic growth." I agree there, and if it were up to me, people can live how they like, however personally I believe that you can't have everything, and growth in certain areas means suppressing other areas. A simple way to look at this is, I'd love to spend all my money on video games and spend all my time playing them, but then I'd have no room to grow in other areas and bring more pleasure for myself in the long run. And so I suppress the desire to game all day. Similarly, I'm sure a lot of men (and a lot of women) would love to be able to sleep around with other people their entire life, however, there are benefits in suppressing that desire and settling down with one unit and creating a family unit.
"A degree of individuality is immediately suppressed" in every form of society, some degree of individuality is suppressed as every society is a weighing of the needs of the individual against the needs of the group as a whole.
"as to truly live according to ones own unique beliefs would be to live in defiance of the desires that stimulate economic growth." I agree there, and if it were up to me, people can live how they like, however personally I believe that you can't have everything, and growth in certain areas means suppressing other areas. A simple way to look at this is, I'd love to spend all my money on video games and spend all my time playing them, but then I'd have no room to grow in other areas and bring more pleasure for myself in the long run. And so I suppress the desire to game all day. Similarly, I'm sure a lot of men (and a lot of women) would love to be able to sleep around with other people their entire life, however, there are benefits in suppressing that desire and settling down with one unit and creating a family unit.
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Oster1 · M
@basilfawlty89 WOW!!! I'm so impessed! What are you, TRYING to say?
Perhaps, the Alphabet, overides common business practices, no?
Perhaps, the Alphabet, overides common business practices, no?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@basilfawlty89 I think part of why he feels so threatened is he knows his qualifications are the same a Don Trump Jr or Paris Hilton. They won the baby lottery.