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Abstraction · 61-69, M
No it isn't.
[i]"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." Adam Smith[/i].
People misread Smith. That's not capitalism - that's [b]commerce[/b]. That's [u]not selfishness either.[/u] Self-interest isn't selfishness. Breathing isn't selfish. Earning a living isn't selfish.
Studies show that - counter-intuitively - most people are not selfish. (Studies also show that we incorrectly perceive most people as selfish.)
Capitalism is the capture of ordinary commerce to put the profits into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. They use their 'capital' to control and dominate.
[i]"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." Adam Smith[/i].
People misread Smith. That's not capitalism - that's [b]commerce[/b]. That's [u]not selfishness either.[/u] Self-interest isn't selfishness. Breathing isn't selfish. Earning a living isn't selfish.
Studies show that - counter-intuitively - most people are not selfish. (Studies also show that we incorrectly perceive most people as selfish.)
Capitalism is the capture of ordinary commerce to put the profits into the hands of the wealthy and powerful. They use their 'capital' to control and dominate.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Abstraction And you have the really goofy ones (usually but not always Americans) trying to claim all commerce in human history was capitalism based on this flawed logic.
Oster1 · M
@Abstraction I ageed with you until...
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Abstraction it's usually those that are critical of what they call "capitalism" who are the most selfish. They hate "capitalism", simply because they are envious that others have more. They'd rather everyone live in poverty equally, then someone have more than them.
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pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Abstraction I'm not assuming anything about you, I'm not like a lot of people are here. I just care about what I see to be true, I couldn't care less about a label and what that says you must believe.
It also depends on what you mean by "injustice", something that is just to one person, may be evil to the next.
"1. Strangled democracy. Almost all policy that matters is set via political donations and professional lobbyists working for huge corporate interests and wealth."
I agree there.
As for point 2, I agree there and I was going to use that point that lobbyists for corporations that have cornered a portion of the market are there largely through government assistance such as tax cuts, or say through the fact that only these bigger corps can afford to adapt to government regulations, whilst the smaller ones cant, die and then leave more space for the bigger ones to become even bigger.
One reason housing is becoming so expensive is because it's tied to people's retirement funds who are more than happy for the price of said property to raise and raise, for obvious reasons. But the great thing about capitalism is that eventually one part of the market will become unworkable, not enough people will be able to afford whatever it is that keeps rising in price, and in some way or another these things will be made affordable to more people. The only other option, in this case of people's retirement funds linked to property, is to hold on to things that slowly become a net loss to own for the very reason no one younger than them can afford to have anything to do with them.
I dont wish to be a billionaire for the sake of money either. I like creating opportunities for people, I like to make things look and feel appealing, I like being able to enjoy what life has to offer by helping other people be the best they can be so in turn they can help me be the best I can be. And I believe the way to do that is to gain capital in areas you are passionate about. Sure, it's profit driven, and at the end of the day, any economic enterprise, state or private, has to be. You can't operate at a loss for long. But the fact that it's profit driven means that I have to create good products and services.
It also depends on what you mean by "injustice", something that is just to one person, may be evil to the next.
"1. Strangled democracy. Almost all policy that matters is set via political donations and professional lobbyists working for huge corporate interests and wealth."
I agree there.
As for point 2, I agree there and I was going to use that point that lobbyists for corporations that have cornered a portion of the market are there largely through government assistance such as tax cuts, or say through the fact that only these bigger corps can afford to adapt to government regulations, whilst the smaller ones cant, die and then leave more space for the bigger ones to become even bigger.
One reason housing is becoming so expensive is because it's tied to people's retirement funds who are more than happy for the price of said property to raise and raise, for obvious reasons. But the great thing about capitalism is that eventually one part of the market will become unworkable, not enough people will be able to afford whatever it is that keeps rising in price, and in some way or another these things will be made affordable to more people. The only other option, in this case of people's retirement funds linked to property, is to hold on to things that slowly become a net loss to own for the very reason no one younger than them can afford to have anything to do with them.
I dont wish to be a billionaire for the sake of money either. I like creating opportunities for people, I like to make things look and feel appealing, I like being able to enjoy what life has to offer by helping other people be the best they can be so in turn they can help me be the best I can be. And I believe the way to do that is to gain capital in areas you are passionate about. Sure, it's profit driven, and at the end of the day, any economic enterprise, state or private, has to be. You can't operate at a loss for long. But the fact that it's profit driven means that I have to create good products and services.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Abstraction I missed a part, in reference to your second point. These corporations who then amass all this money use their money to lobby for certain things. Things that the politicians who gave them those tax cuts want them to lobby for. They work together, and then depending on your political affiliation you blame the government or capitalism, both of which distract from the fact that the actual issue is government corruption and policies that encourage monopolies.
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve We're not far apart at all. My work is creating opportunities for people. We don't even do charity really - we support enterprise unless it's about survival.
So to be clear - I'm not against commerce and enterprise. I'm not against individuals gaining capital as you describe it. I admire people who start small businesses - but when I was young they didn't have to compete against multi-national corporations to run a hardware store or whatever. Where capitalism went off the rails was when extreme wealth started to control policy to suit themselves, hidden party donations, special land/ tax/ contract deals, wink, wink. This starts to rob people of the dignity of decent opportunity. Cheers.
So to be clear - I'm not against commerce and enterprise. I'm not against individuals gaining capital as you describe it. I admire people who start small businesses - but when I was young they didn't have to compete against multi-national corporations to run a hardware store or whatever. Where capitalism went off the rails was when extreme wealth started to control policy to suit themselves, hidden party donations, special land/ tax/ contract deals, wink, wink. This starts to rob people of the dignity of decent opportunity. Cheers.
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve Agree on your point. It's that mix of corruption and lack of transparency that hurts our countries.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@Abstraction Thanks, my friend. Most of us are a lot closer than we think. I always take the view that everyone wants the same basic things that I and everyone else wants - shelter, food, simple entertainment, companionship etc and that we can bond on those mutual needs and work together. But too many people invert that and say "this one area where we disagree, that means we cant bond over anything else".
A big issue is international capitalism. You have very little investment into the wellbeing of native workers if you can just pack up shop when things turn sour and move to another country. I see the people I employ not as workers or employees, and certainly not below me, but as a group of similar people working together to create a product and do so at a profit level so we can grow. If they decide to start a venture of their own, good on them, I'd even be happy to help.
Could you tell me more about this special deals? Just genuinely curious as to what you refer to. Cheers :)
A big issue is international capitalism. You have very little investment into the wellbeing of native workers if you can just pack up shop when things turn sour and move to another country. I see the people I employ not as workers or employees, and certainly not below me, but as a group of similar people working together to create a product and do so at a profit level so we can grow. If they decide to start a venture of their own, good on them, I'd even be happy to help.
Could you tell me more about this special deals? Just genuinely curious as to what you refer to. Cheers :)
Abstraction · 61-69, M
@pianoplayingsteve 'Special deals' might mean winning large government contracts like this one - no other company had the opportunity to compete for the contract - and then they increased the costs by multi-millions of dollars.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/21/liberal-party-donors-revenue-from-uncontested-contracts-for-offshore-processing-rises-to-15bn
"The original contract for “provision of garrison and welfare services on Nauru” awarded to Canstruct was worth just $8m in October 2017 but this was amended almost immediately – increased by 4,500% to $385m just a month after being signed."
It might mean in response to climate change promises giving [u]$50 million handouts to gas companies[/u] to help them start new fossil fuel projects. A little ironic, don't you think? Now is this free enterprise or welfare for party donors. Yes they give a few tens of thousands or so to the party (often difficult to trace pathway) and make 50 million in return. That's not investment, that's graft.
https://theconversation.com/the-morrison-governments-50-million-gas-handout-undermines-climate-targets-and-does-nothing-to-improve-energy-security-180247
Meanwhile, Rupert Murdoch's media complains about welfare for the poor. People battling to get their children clothed and fed.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/21/liberal-party-donors-revenue-from-uncontested-contracts-for-offshore-processing-rises-to-15bn
"The original contract for “provision of garrison and welfare services on Nauru” awarded to Canstruct was worth just $8m in October 2017 but this was amended almost immediately – increased by 4,500% to $385m just a month after being signed."
It might mean in response to climate change promises giving [u]$50 million handouts to gas companies[/u] to help them start new fossil fuel projects. A little ironic, don't you think? Now is this free enterprise or welfare for party donors. Yes they give a few tens of thousands or so to the party (often difficult to trace pathway) and make 50 million in return. That's not investment, that's graft.
https://theconversation.com/the-morrison-governments-50-million-gas-handout-undermines-climate-targets-and-does-nothing-to-improve-energy-security-180247
Meanwhile, Rupert Murdoch's media complains about welfare for the poor. People battling to get their children clothed and fed.