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Ynotisay · M
@RebelliousSpirit You pity me? I'm done now little one. Kiss me ass with that shit. Don't write me again. Thanks.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Ynotisay you started out writing me and have been acting like a huge condescending piece of shit here.
Ynotisay · M
@RebelliousSpirit You arrogantly post and then expect others to agree with it? When it's crystal clear why you're posting? Uh...block.
I am a big fan of making the distinction between personal property and private property. Your underwear is personal property, you don't have to fear anyone else coming in and putting it on. The house you live in would be personal property. If you have a garden on the land that could be personal property. But just hoarding unused land like some kind of dragon on a treasure heap shouldn't be a thing.
I think proper allocation and usage of land would be a tricky thing though. We need to escape the problem of the commons. Which largely exists itself due to our culture of forever growth. There are also situations where multiple co-op farming groups might try to compete for the same land. That gets harder to adjudicate if nobody actually owns it. Ownership, for all of its flaws, was originally a tool to help fix those complexities. Corrupt as it may have become, it still servesan underlying purpose.
I think proper allocation and usage of land would be a tricky thing though. We need to escape the problem of the commons. Which largely exists itself due to our culture of forever growth. There are also situations where multiple co-op farming groups might try to compete for the same land. That gets harder to adjudicate if nobody actually owns it. Ownership, for all of its flaws, was originally a tool to help fix those complexities. Corrupt as it may have become, it still servesan underlying purpose.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@ViciDraco Thanks for your comment! I agree
I think when it comes to land, collective ownership and democratic control for the people actively using or inhabiting it without excluding other people in the process sounds like a good solution.
But for those things to be able to exist the culture would need to change towards a less growth oriented society that is not driven to selfishness and that puts less value on strict property rights.
I think when it comes to land, collective ownership and democratic control for the people actively using or inhabiting it without excluding other people in the process sounds like a good solution.
But for those things to be able to exist the culture would need to change towards a less growth oriented society that is not driven to selfishness and that puts less value on strict property rights.
ViciDraco · 36-40, M
@RebelliousSpirit one other issue that concerns me is that any unused land being free for use could lead to overdevelopment of the land. Being less growth oriented helps there but does not necessarily solve the problem. We would need to make sure we have ways to maintain green and wild spaces.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
By your definition what is the maximum amount of land I am allowed to own that surrounds my house? @RebelliousSpirit @ViciDraco
BizSuitStacy · M
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Did you see that Biden is not proposing a bill that would limit election ballots to contained the two major parties? That’s for now of course. Who’s to say someone might try to limit that to one at some point. @RebelliousSpirit
RebelliousSpirit · F
@jackjjackson I mean that wouldn't change much the difference between Republicans and Democrats is minor. Both rich elitist fucks but at least one party is a bit less openly hateful towards minority groups.
BizSuitStacy · M
@RebelliousSpirit And there's your issue...it's simple physical math issue, not a medical issue. You can't stop 120 nanometer virus with a 55,000 nanometer hole in mask. Your comment is an indictment of the public school system. Looking forward to "your revolution" comrade.
Ynotisay · M
But someone's home is considered private property. And there's countless things I could purchase to exploit people or generate profit.
Maybe it comes down to the definition of "exploit." And what the "labor" class is. I have a feeling your 'class' is very, very narrowly defined. Probably people in the same boat that you find yourself in. Because lots of people earn very good livings, or even just enough to get by, and don't feel exploited.
Just remember that when you choose your location for your co-op commune, which will fail, you need to have a nearby water source. Good luck.
Maybe it comes down to the definition of "exploit." And what the "labor" class is. I have a feeling your 'class' is very, very narrowly defined. Probably people in the same boat that you find yourself in. Because lots of people earn very good livings, or even just enough to get by, and don't feel exploited.
Just remember that when you choose your location for your co-op commune, which will fail, you need to have a nearby water source. Good luck.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Ynotisay I'm in the US unfortunately and i'm going by a leftist theory definition of property.
That's it! I'm against the concept of renting in general.
Oh my fuckin god I don't know how to respond to your extremly priviledged outlook on life.
[quote]And again, you're painting workers as victims. I work. I'm not a victim. I'm not a slave. I can stay or leave at any time. And my value is represented monetarily. That's how it works. If you bring more to the table you're compensated accordingly. And if you're not then you leave and find a more fair situation.[/quote]
That's right there is a priviledged position and that you are compensated if you bring more to the table is as false as your take that it's so easy to just switch jobs and find "more fair" situations.
[quote]Work takes on a very different look then. Do you have kids? Probably not. What happens when you're responsible for others and not just yourself? Again, work takes on a different look.[/quote]
Those are no arguments against democratic workplaces and a more just society.
If i were responisble for children work would become even more important and I might even need a second job just to sustain me and my family.
[quote]You've heard of survival of the fittest in the wild?[/quote]
Yes and you bringing it up to prove your point is hilarious since apparently you just like Social Darwinists do not understand Darwin.
The species best at adapting are the fittest, not those that survive fights but those that are able to work together and engage in mutual aid.
You endorsing capitalism is so disgusting. Any social market economy would work better than the system we have to live with in the US.
I'm not even advocating for communes yet and they fail cause capitalism brings out the worst in people leading to competitive thinking and putting profit before people making alternatives impossible.
That's it! I'm against the concept of renting in general.
Oh my fuckin god I don't know how to respond to your extremly priviledged outlook on life.
[quote]And again, you're painting workers as victims. I work. I'm not a victim. I'm not a slave. I can stay or leave at any time. And my value is represented monetarily. That's how it works. If you bring more to the table you're compensated accordingly. And if you're not then you leave and find a more fair situation.[/quote]
That's right there is a priviledged position and that you are compensated if you bring more to the table is as false as your take that it's so easy to just switch jobs and find "more fair" situations.
[quote]Work takes on a very different look then. Do you have kids? Probably not. What happens when you're responsible for others and not just yourself? Again, work takes on a different look.[/quote]
Those are no arguments against democratic workplaces and a more just society.
If i were responisble for children work would become even more important and I might even need a second job just to sustain me and my family.
[quote]You've heard of survival of the fittest in the wild?[/quote]
Yes and you bringing it up to prove your point is hilarious since apparently you just like Social Darwinists do not understand Darwin.
The species best at adapting are the fittest, not those that survive fights but those that are able to work together and engage in mutual aid.
You endorsing capitalism is so disgusting. Any social market economy would work better than the system we have to live with in the US.
I'm not even advocating for communes yet and they fail cause capitalism brings out the worst in people leading to competitive thinking and putting profit before people making alternatives impossible.
This message was deleted by the author of the main post.
This message was deleted by its author.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@BritishFailedAesthetic Of course but again I would never ran a business alone since all major decisions would be up to vote and any leader position would be up to vote.
@RebelliousSpirit Ok well if the UK operated your model I'd make sure to be an admin or similar position rather than management then, as I'd get the same salary either way!
RebelliousSpirit · F
@BritishFailedAesthetic It would not be the same salary for everyone but the wage gap would be much smaller and it would be based on time, labour value, ... and not based on status or position.
SusanInFlorida · 31-35, F
Karl Marx has arisen from the grave, and is posting in SW!!!
Explain to me why government ownership of the means of production is fair, but individual ownership is not.
Explain to me why government ownership of the means of production is fair, but individual ownership is not.
SusanInFlorida · 31-35, F
@Graylight trying to censor views you disagree with is the bomb, isn't it?
Graylight · 51-55, F
@SusanInFlorida Do you see shadow monsters in [i]everything[/i]?
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
What you call exploitation is being too naive or unwilling to vouch for your own interest. You understand very little about your opponent if you think it's because of some melding of terms.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Jackaloftheazuresand are you an objectivist by any chance?
You don't see the issue that is Capitalism?
Also we should change things when not associating is not an option.
You don't see the issue that is Capitalism?
Also we should change things when not associating is not an option.
Jackaloftheazuresand · 26-30, M
@RebelliousSpirit If I am I don't know it. I like my thoughts to arrive purely from me so I mostly avoid taking on a philosophical title.
No I see no problem and until capitalism takes direct action against me I never will.
No I see no problem and until capitalism takes direct action against me I never will.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Jackaloftheazuresand So you are an egoist? Got it 🤢
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
By your definition the government would seize my car, bank account, house, laptop, etc.?
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Someone or something has to own what used to be my private property under your plan. If not the government who? I’ll miss my house, laptop and car. What about my dog? @RebelliousSpirit
RebelliousSpirit · F
@jackjjackson Ok can't take you seriously bye
I'm aware that you conservative types are afraid of democratic workplaces cause your beloved hierarchies would crumble.
I'm aware that you conservative types are afraid of democratic workplaces cause your beloved hierarchies would crumble.
jackjjackson · 61-69, M
Please describe how such a workplace operates? You still haven’t clarified my points regarding the subject of your thread. So response to both would be appreciated. Thank you. @RebelliousSpirit
Cierzo · M
Is housing considered private property?
All types of land and business ownership are considered private property?
Common ownership means state ownership?
If the answer to the three questions is 'no', it may be considered.
All types of land and business ownership are considered private property?
Common ownership means state ownership?
If the answer to the three questions is 'no', it may be considered.
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Cierzo Housing can fall into both categories. If you ask me whether people should be able to own the places they live in then I would say yes.
Landlords making a profit of owning property? Hell no
Business ownership yes no single person or small group of people should own a business and the means of production and no common ownership means the people working at the workplace or the people benefiting from land or other property own it not the state.
Landlords making a profit of owning property? Hell no
Business ownership yes no single person or small group of people should own a business and the means of production and no common ownership means the people working at the workplace or the people benefiting from land or other property own it not the state.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
It's not hard to understand what's right -. It's just that it's the enemy of the regime in Washington.
Thevy29 · 41-45, M
Indigenous Owners of the land. 🖕🏽
@Thevy29 ?
RebelliousSpirit · F
@Thevy29 wtf I'm in favor of indigenous people having the right to their land.
You know that capitalism is the enemy of indigenous people right?
You know that capitalism is the enemy of indigenous people right?