Is it ethical for a vegan to own a cat as a pet since these animals require meat to live?
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BlueVeins · 22-25
Cats don't [i]necessarily[/i] require meat to live,
https://www.ecodogsandcats.com/meal-time/cat-food/
but obviously there are obviously health conditions which might necessitate it. For example, my parents' cat is prediabetic and thus, can't consume any carbs at all. Any cat food made from plants is gonna have some of that, even if it meets every other nutritional need a cat may have. Vegan cats can also have issues with urine pH, but this can be measured and corrected for.
Ignoring all that, a cat in a shelter will consume as much meat as a cat in a home, so why would it be immoral to transform the former into the latter? I struggle to find a reason. A feral cat will kill rodents and birds for food, so why is it immoral to bring that cat inside and kill farm animals on its behalf? The amount of death doesn't clearly decline in that case. You could shoot the cat, sure, but it seems absurd to expect people to kill a member of their own family. The only scenario where it's clearly immoral imo is when the cat is purchased from a breeder, in which case the alternative was the cat not existing to begin with, and thus not killing any animals.
Having said that, I do think vegans have a moral responsibility to make [i]some[/i] effort to reduce the damage caused by their cats' diet. Examples include:
-Trying out a vegan cat food brand and seeing if it works
-Supplementing in meat of non-sentient sessile bivalves
-Supplementing in meat of less sentient insects
-Supplementing in vegetables for your cat (which is advisable for health reasons anyway)
-Attaining items like cutting room scraps, which do not contribute to market demand for meat
-Feeding the cat lab-grown meat when it becomes available
https://www.ecodogsandcats.com/meal-time/cat-food/
but obviously there are obviously health conditions which might necessitate it. For example, my parents' cat is prediabetic and thus, can't consume any carbs at all. Any cat food made from plants is gonna have some of that, even if it meets every other nutritional need a cat may have. Vegan cats can also have issues with urine pH, but this can be measured and corrected for.
Ignoring all that, a cat in a shelter will consume as much meat as a cat in a home, so why would it be immoral to transform the former into the latter? I struggle to find a reason. A feral cat will kill rodents and birds for food, so why is it immoral to bring that cat inside and kill farm animals on its behalf? The amount of death doesn't clearly decline in that case. You could shoot the cat, sure, but it seems absurd to expect people to kill a member of their own family. The only scenario where it's clearly immoral imo is when the cat is purchased from a breeder, in which case the alternative was the cat not existing to begin with, and thus not killing any animals.
Having said that, I do think vegans have a moral responsibility to make [i]some[/i] effort to reduce the damage caused by their cats' diet. Examples include:
-Trying out a vegan cat food brand and seeing if it works
-Supplementing in meat of non-sentient sessile bivalves
-Supplementing in meat of less sentient insects
-Supplementing in vegetables for your cat (which is advisable for health reasons anyway)
-Attaining items like cutting room scraps, which do not contribute to market demand for meat
-Feeding the cat lab-grown meat when it becomes available
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LordShadowfire · M
@BlueVeins I sincerely hope you don't own a cat.
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deadgerbil · 22-25
I guess you can make that argument that it's not, since they are owning an animal that requires the death of other animals that the person is normally against and if people wanted to reduce the suffering of animals, lowering the amount of pet cats would mean less of a demand for fish, chicken, etc.
It really depends on how extreme the person would want to be. Some idiots take it so far that they would rather have their cat malnourished instead of being normal and giving them a normal diet
It really depends on how extreme the person would want to be. Some idiots take it so far that they would rather have their cat malnourished instead of being normal and giving them a normal diet
deadgerbil · 22-25
@Pikachu would you call for people to avoid getting pet cats and other pets that require meat?
@deadgerbil
Maybe in the future but not until and unless we manage to stop humans from eating animals to the greatest extent possible because animal food is often using byproducts of the animals slaughtered for human consumption.
Maybe in the future but not until and unless we manage to stop humans from eating animals to the greatest extent possible because animal food is often using byproducts of the animals slaughtered for human consumption.
LordShadowfire · M
@BritishFailedAesthetic I know, right? If you want a pet that's vegan, get a couple of bunnies.
Not one bunny. That's cruel to the bunnies. Get a boy and a girl.
Not one bunny. That's cruel to the bunnies. Get a boy and a girl.
Piper · 61-69, F
Speaking as someone who has simply abstained from eating meat for over half my lifetime, now, and has greatly restricted the use and consumption of other animal "products"? I do not feel it is [i]un[/i]ethical for to me give a cat a home, and feed that cat what is necessary for his or her health and ultimately...survival. It has been somewhat of a moral dilemma for me at times, though.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@Pikachu I think this varies wildly by the vegan. I mean, some won't eat honey. Others are vegans purely for personal health. Many for ethical reasons but just kind of accept that since cats are carnivores and permanently associated with humans, may as well just deal with it and also cats are awesome.
There's no clean answer it's a lot of things.
There's no clean answer it's a lot of things.
Graylight · 51-55, F
No. A cat's natural instinct is to hunt and consume prey. Can it live on a vegan diet? Possibly. You and I could live on protein supplements with only a few other necessities. But that doesn’t make for much of an existence when we’re hard-wired to seek certain nutrition through certain methods.
Add to that a vegan lifestyle is a conscious decision a human makes after weight many factors. You cat only knows that he depends on your for survival and that if he doesn’t get the fare he wants, he won’t get it anywhere. Consider the happiness level of a cat like that.
Ethical decisions are personal choices. Their name implies such. Unless a meat-based diet is killing or harming cats worldwide, I’d favor letting them eat what they like.
Add to that a vegan lifestyle is a conscious decision a human makes after weight many factors. You cat only knows that he depends on your for survival and that if he doesn’t get the fare he wants, he won’t get it anywhere. Consider the happiness level of a cat like that.
Ethical decisions are personal choices. Their name implies such. Unless a meat-based diet is killing or harming cats worldwide, I’d favor letting them eat what they like.
@Graylight
I think many people here are arguing against the idea that a cat should eat a vegan diet but this is not my contention.
[quote]Add to that a vegan lifestyle is a conscious decision a human makes after weight many factors[/quote]
Indeed. The vegan makes the decision to not participate in an industry that causes suffering in animals.
So wouldn't the behaviour concomitant with that value be to NOT own an animal that would require you to participate in that industry?
I think many people here are arguing against the idea that a cat should eat a vegan diet but this is not my contention.
[quote]Add to that a vegan lifestyle is a conscious decision a human makes after weight many factors[/quote]
Indeed. The vegan makes the decision to not participate in an industry that causes suffering in animals.
So wouldn't the behaviour concomitant with that value be to NOT own an animal that would require you to participate in that industry?
Graylight · 51-55, F
@Pikachu There's a point to be made. I've seen animals taken to slaughter. I've seen them smell the abject fear of the animals before them and I've watched them have to be dragged to the death table. I will never watch it again. Ever.
For partially that reason, I decline to consume meat. Humanely killed with respect and consumed so waste is minimal is the least we can offer living creatures whose light we're extinguishing. It's a hard place to exist. our pets should live the life nature intended them to, but so should the creatures that feed them. The most effective option might be to change the way animals are consumed in this country,
For partially that reason, I decline to consume meat. Humanely killed with respect and consumed so waste is minimal is the least we can offer living creatures whose light we're extinguishing. It's a hard place to exist. our pets should live the life nature intended them to, but so should the creatures that feed them. The most effective option might be to change the way animals are consumed in this country,
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
"require" is the magic word here.
@Kwek00
[quote]Or is this just black and white here?[/quote]
No i don't think it's black and white. But in the end and in a best case scenario, it still means taking an animals life.
[quote]And I don't even think it's a false dichonomy,[/quote]
Of course it is. Because you're presenting the options as either let a cat hunt in the wild or kill animals to feed your pet
Those are not the only available options.
[quote]And thus you either let the cat run outside and let it hunt at it's own leisure OR you provide food too your pet that you conciously buy because the cat needs to eat.[/quote]
lol come on, no.
Option 3: you do not choose to own a cat. You do not propose to stop nature from being nature and you do not choose to kill animals to feed your pet.
You choose not to be a party to taking the life of an animal.
[quote] then they would advocate against pets that eat meat[/quote]
Some of them do. Or at least recognize as problematic the keeping of such pets.
Nothing stupid about it.
Actually, Blueveins shared in this thread a woman talking about vegan cat food. She intelligently discussed the pros, cons and dangers. She said she loves cats but that if you really want a vegan animal...don't get a cat.
Nothing stupid about that either.
[quote]Or is this just black and white here?[/quote]
No i don't think it's black and white. But in the end and in a best case scenario, it still means taking an animals life.
[quote]And I don't even think it's a false dichonomy,[/quote]
Of course it is. Because you're presenting the options as either let a cat hunt in the wild or kill animals to feed your pet
Those are not the only available options.
[quote]And thus you either let the cat run outside and let it hunt at it's own leisure OR you provide food too your pet that you conciously buy because the cat needs to eat.[/quote]
lol come on, no.
Option 3: you do not choose to own a cat. You do not propose to stop nature from being nature and you do not choose to kill animals to feed your pet.
You choose not to be a party to taking the life of an animal.
[quote] then they would advocate against pets that eat meat[/quote]
Some of them do. Or at least recognize as problematic the keeping of such pets.
Nothing stupid about it.
Actually, Blueveins shared in this thread a woman talking about vegan cat food. She intelligently discussed the pros, cons and dangers. She said she loves cats but that if you really want a vegan animal...don't get a cat.
Nothing stupid about that either.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Pikachu
[quote]No i don't think it's black and white. But in the end and in a best case scenario, it still means taking an animals life.[/quote]
Which is unavoidable in your example. You accept that, we talked about this and you are still not over it.
And thats why I have to keep repeating that a cat isn't a human, because you say you get it but you keep forgetting it in your reasoning.
[quote]Option 3: you do not choose to own a cat. You do not propose to stop nature from being nature and you do not choose to kill animals to feed your pet.
[/quote]
Now no one has cat. Which is what I adress in the last bit. But considering that there is a level of cruelty, that you admit excist in your first part of your responds. It's just forgotten in this part and the vegan can't have a cat. Altough the vegan has the option when taking a cat, to reduce harm to the prey that will be eaten, because the cat is now back in the wild as I've been saying all along. And the vegan has to argue against holding pets, because they can't give them to a foster care, because that would make them implicit with what (at least in your perception of a vegan is) they believe is morally wrong. But the cat will keep eating and what ever it is it eats will keep dieing.
Well, I guess me and the woman in your last example will partially disagree for now. I do still think that vegans can have a cat, because of what Is stated earlier. Considering we have to keep repeating ourselves, I think it's fair to say we can do something else with our time.
[quote]No i don't think it's black and white. But in the end and in a best case scenario, it still means taking an animals life.[/quote]
Which is unavoidable in your example. You accept that, we talked about this and you are still not over it.
And thats why I have to keep repeating that a cat isn't a human, because you say you get it but you keep forgetting it in your reasoning.
[quote]Option 3: you do not choose to own a cat. You do not propose to stop nature from being nature and you do not choose to kill animals to feed your pet.
[/quote]
Now no one has cat. Which is what I adress in the last bit. But considering that there is a level of cruelty, that you admit excist in your first part of your responds. It's just forgotten in this part and the vegan can't have a cat. Altough the vegan has the option when taking a cat, to reduce harm to the prey that will be eaten, because the cat is now back in the wild as I've been saying all along. And the vegan has to argue against holding pets, because they can't give them to a foster care, because that would make them implicit with what (at least in your perception of a vegan is) they believe is morally wrong. But the cat will keep eating and what ever it is it eats will keep dieing.
Well, I guess me and the woman in your last example will partially disagree for now. I do still think that vegans can have a cat, because of what Is stated earlier. Considering we have to keep repeating ourselves, I think it's fair to say we can do something else with our time.
@Kwek00
[quote]And thats why I have to keep repeating that a cat isn't a human, because you say you get it but you keep forgetting it in your reasoning.[/quote]
lol i can't understand why you think cats being carnivore with no choice in the matter has any bearing on the arguments i am making.
I don't think i can't make it any clearer that these choices are all about what the morality of the human actions.
[quote]And the vegan has to argue against holding pets, because they can't give them to a foster care, because that would make them implicit[/quote]
That doesn't make them complicit in the industry. That means they are a) not letting the cat go shred animals in the wild b) not participating in the taking of animal life and c) not killing the cat which would be absurd.
But it seems we can't help but talk at cross purposes so i agree we can end the discussion there.
Have a pleasant day✌️
[quote]And thats why I have to keep repeating that a cat isn't a human, because you say you get it but you keep forgetting it in your reasoning.[/quote]
lol i can't understand why you think cats being carnivore with no choice in the matter has any bearing on the arguments i am making.
I don't think i can't make it any clearer that these choices are all about what the morality of the human actions.
[quote]And the vegan has to argue against holding pets, because they can't give them to a foster care, because that would make them implicit[/quote]
That doesn't make them complicit in the industry. That means they are a) not letting the cat go shred animals in the wild b) not participating in the taking of animal life and c) not killing the cat which would be absurd.
But it seems we can't help but talk at cross purposes so i agree we can end the discussion there.
Have a pleasant day✌️
@EarthlingWise
True
True
SkeetSkeet · 100+, F
ElwoodBlues · M
@SkeetSkeet How often has this happened?
InOtterWords · F
InOtterWords · F
@BlueVeins and would you be able to stop a cat from catching its own dinner
BlueVeins · 22-25
@InOtterWords wdym?
InOtterWords · F
@BlueVeins my cat often goes out and catches a mouse or a bird. I cannot force him to be vegan
BohemianBoo · M
Yes, because cats are going to eat meat regardless. At least until there's a suitable replacement.
@BohemianBoo
Yes they have to eat meat...so by owning a cat a vegan would be participating in animal suffering to feed that cat.
So is it ethical to participate in something you consider unethical?
Yes they have to eat meat...so by owning a cat a vegan would be participating in animal suffering to feed that cat.
So is it ethical to participate in something you consider unethical?
BohemianBoo · M
@Pikachu I think if it doesn't make a difference either way, it's alright. The cat I own would still be eating meat if I didn't have her.
Of course it is 😂
@sexyjigsaw
[quote]then I spot a clear contradiction between being vegan and saying you can never cause animal suffering and then have a carnivore whose entire diet is literally based on the suffering of another animal[/quote]
So you'd say that it is unethical for a vegan to own a cat?
[quote]then I spot a clear contradiction between being vegan and saying you can never cause animal suffering and then have a carnivore whose entire diet is literally based on the suffering of another animal[/quote]
So you'd say that it is unethical for a vegan to own a cat?
@Pikachu yeah, based on that principle. But then again, the sticky part here is that I cannot really hold a vegan to impose that principle on animals
It all depends on if carnivores get the pass, which they should. But carnivores inherently violate vegan principles against animal suffering.
It all depends on if carnivores get the pass, which they should. But carnivores inherently violate vegan principles against animal suffering.
@sexyjigsaw
Well i absolutely agree that you can't impose a vegan diet on an animal that needs meat.
Well i absolutely agree that you can't impose a vegan diet on an animal that needs meat.
DearAmbellina2113 · 41-45, F
It's ethical. They need meat to survive. Humans don't. So a vegan should not feel guilty feeding their cat meat.
jerMIguy · 36-40, M
Let’s stop you a little sooner.
It’s not ethical for a vegan ___________. (Insert anything here. 😂)
It’s not ethical for a vegan ___________. (Insert anything here. 😂)
travelguy01 · 41-45, M
Unethical for them technically, especially since the cat food they would be feeding them would be made as a result of other humans killing animals to mass produce it, which is generally what most vegans are against.
Vegans being against the predator/prey circle of life that exists naturally within the animal kingdom wouldn't make much sense.
Vegans being against the predator/prey circle of life that exists naturally within the animal kingdom wouldn't make much sense.