First of all, I'd like to take a moment to point out that there's evidence that trans dudes also have an advantage against cis men, so it's a bit strange to narrow the discussion down to women's sports in particular. That's not to malign your intentions or anything, I just feel like that's important to point out.
Frankly, I think the question of 'fairness' is basically meaningless to whether trans women should be allowed in women's sports. I mean, a guy who's 4'8" doesn't have a fair chance of becoming a professional swimmer. A chick who was born with smaller lungs doesn't have a fair chance of excelling at soccer. People have natural advantages all the time; the real reason why we even divide men's and women's sports centers around entertainment value. Observing genetic outliers train and compete against each other is fun in itself and if we only had one unified sports league, we'd in effect be eliminating half the genetic freaks.
This essentially means that I don't have a stake in this game because I'm not a sports fan, but I do think allowing trans ppl in sports where they dominate would hurt entertainment value. This is because the natural advantage that trans people may have would reduce the extent to which they'd need to be genetic oddities in other areas, which subverts part of the entertainment value mentioned earlier.
What's basically important to me (insofar as this issue is important at all) is that trans people in sports are handled on somewhat of a discretionary basis with an eye for science. Trans people definitely have an advantage in some sports, but not necessarily all. In fact, I've seen it speculated that transgender women have a disadvantage in maneuverability, since they have the big, lumbering frame of a man, but less muscle to actually support it. You mentioned male puberty, and I think it's important to keep puberty blockers in mind, which would almost certainly play a role in determining if a trans person has an advantage.
I'm fine with it. Trans women have competed in sports before and lost numerous times. Every time they win first, some anti trans cisgender blames it on the fact that the person who beat them was trans and then it becomes over blown.
I'd have to find it but there was some trans athlete who won world trophy.. don't remember what is was called but she said she lost to her competitor about eight times and then finally won
This competitor then went on to complain that it was because the winner was trans is why she won and not because of talent.
I'll call it for what it is, a bunch of snot nosed females who don't want to actually compete, they want to win every time and want to blame trans women for them losing, since trans women don't win all the time.
@MrHonkHonk dude, I know who you are. Your writing style, the spelling mistakes, the narrative. Stop being a coward, I know full well you're KlonB. Same age range as well.
It's really just a trap. As long as a trans person keeps losing at a sport they can point at them and call them weak and how being trans destroys a person. But if they win at sports it is all of a sudden a form of cheating and they will lose their mind over it. It's a damned if you do either way. Not to mention just blatant transphobia existing outside of sports. My opinion is leave people that want to play together the frick alone. If someone they are competing against starts whining about it just tell them to shut up and do better. TBH this looks like the same argument that people make against affirmative action. "It's cheating!" "They arent qualified." "They only got help cause they are black" (now it's trans). Same fricking argument, new target. This is America! The land of the self made person pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. So to the anti-trans (or racists) shut your mouth and get to pulling.
@Vegasgiants Yes. Troll always care about what others think. But I repeat, I don't give a shit about you or your opinion on people who's genitalia you'll never see. So... 🖕
The problem is using the blanket terms "sports" and "competition." It's also in tacitly implying that men are competing against women; this is not true.
Competition and sports range from martial arts, basketball, swimming and rugby to chess, equestrian events and sailing. While strength or certain physical attributes influence success in many categories, others aren't that clear. And where do we stop? Swimmer Michael Phelps proportionately has abnormally short legs and long torso as well as a whopping 80" wingspan, a body type that helps him slice through water. Is that fair? What about a Judo competition, in which a much smaller opponent might easily outmaneuver an opponent.
Is there a place for discussion on this topic? Of course. But [i]discussion[/i] is needed, not edicts, not deflections, not strawmen and certainly not political [i]anything [/i]over this issue. MGT might watch out addressing this lest someone out her as a man in women's clothes.
@Graylight I agree wholeheartedly, the Right has made this into another one of their things to be outraged by with nothing to offer as an alternative. This appears to be their MO now, rile up the base with things to get outraged over in order to cover up their total lack of anything to offer aside from hatred!
I feel like this could be problematic. I certainly am for inclusion, but we do need to be fair to all women in this debate. Its not going to be fair to allow someone who has been through puberty as a male to suddenly move into the women's sports world and go head to head. Genetic males, no matter how they identify are going to have more muscle mass, more "everything" which makes them more efficient athletes.
That of course being said, there is so much more to unpack here. I mean I personally have no idea what effects taking female hormones has on a male body. I don't know if we even really know the full story from an athletics point of view. I think before I would throw my vote into the ring, I would need so much more information.
I think it is something that needs to be looked over and some hard decisions made. We need to be fair to the trans community while being fair to the cis athletes as well. I think we can, we just can't let knee-jerk reactions rule the field.
@Pikachu Well its certainly something that I, as someone who isn't into sports that much on the whole haven't done any research about, but certainly have heard lots of opinions. Which of course vary wildly on how truthful they want to be about the subject.
Just meaning, I doubt most people have done any research on the subject.
@Pikachu Conservatives tend to overdramatize. Like Cancel Culture is a major problem even though the number of people who have been legitimately harmed by it could be counted on one hand.
@Pikachu @BlueVeins Your hearts are in the right place, and we shan’t convince the other, but I appreciate the dialog. Off to dinner…have a great night!
@SW-User i could care less what bars i am in as long as they serve budlight and close to home.
And i like gays , lesbians queers, homos they are nice people at a bar i bought a round of drinks just don't cheat at women's sports or go into little girls bathrooms we are good
there should be more than two options for gender/sex/roles. as a woman it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. idk i do think deep down they'll never understand what it's like to actually be female without the period, childbirth, etc. same goes with females who want to be males. again, there should be more than two options for gender/sex/roles. some people have both sets of reproductive organs or clearly exhibit traits opposite to their named gender. i don't put anyone down for it but overall i don't think it's "okay" to mutilate oneself with expensive surgeries, toxic cosmetics, and treatments which make the bones brittle, and try to be something you're not. to me it is a psychological dilemma caused by severe societal pressures to fit one set of gender standards. open up the playing field. i like guys in skirts.
So is it time for sports competitions to have 3 genders, Male, Female and Trans? I'm not a biologist so can't say whether trans people have an unfair advantage but I would think that they would, but that's just [u]my[/u] opinion which isn't worth a hill of beans. The International Governing Bodies seem to have decided that it's ok and I have to assume they've done their due diligence on this???
@spjennifer i am actualyy well versed in this topic as i have researched it. Lets start here
Biologist Emma Hilton who co-authored a review on trans women in sports has studied it.
She found that in most every category, men are much stronger. Testosterone blockers just can’t close the gap.
“A male could be 40% stronger than a female on his legs,” she says. “Things like shoulder width don’t change when transgender women suppress testosterone. They don’t get shorter. Their hearts don’t get smaller. They’ve still got big lungs. The performance gap in weightlifting is over 30% ... throwing a baseball over 50% ... when a male punches, 160%.”
@Vegasgiants As someone who is actually Trans, I have also researched it a great deal, here is a perhaps less biased article with a broader perspective on the issue you might find of interest as it presents some salient points without Dr. Hilton's obvious bias. If you read my original message, I don't dispute that there [u]may[/u] indeed be an "unfair Advantage" but since the current philosophy of the Governing Bodies is to allow it, I don't see things changing until much broader studies with many participants have been conducted that allows them to better judge but those studies may take many years...
@spjennifer Groups like the NCAA got it wrong for decades by saying blacks snd whites could not compete together. I personally believe they are currently getting it wrong. I feel bad that there is no place for these athletes as it is not their fault but we dont advance civil rights by ignoring the obvious.
I don’t like it. I think there needs to be a longer period of time in the transition process, where bodies start to change, before being allowed to participate. I take no issue at all with trans. Be who you want to be!
They don't actually dominate every sport they enter. Trans people have been competing in the Olympics since 2004. To this day, a trans woman hasn't won gold.
Most sport institutions require that trans women be on hormone meds that eliminate any advantage.
@Vegasgiants So then the line that trans women dominate in sports is wrong.
No, but that's not what sports institutions do. Like I said earlier, you have to prove you've been on hormones long enough so that you no longer have a genetic advantage.
@BohemianBoo And yet Lia goes from ranked 500th to a national championship. Two trans runners now share 15 titles once belonging to 9 girls. They also ranked over 300th as men
It's a tough question. We have a trans female-to-male child and support him fully. But as someone who grew up involved in sports, I find it unfair for a person with essentially male musculature to compete against physical females. But what's the answer -- another sets of sports for trans males-to-females? And then a league for males-to-females? Or actual equality: everyone competes against all genders and let the chips fall where they may? But what would that do to female participation? I just don't know.
@ChipmunkErnie One other option: IF competition is to be divided, then make the divisions via X/Y chromosome testing? The, no matter surgery/meds the playing fields would be more even.
Steeee[i]rike[/i] two! Ok, so you shot your mouth off and you didn't actually have a case. That much is obvious to everyone now. Sorry about your wounded pride but i'ma throw you a bone here. I suspect from your attack that we actually share an opinion on the rights of LTGBQ people. If i'm being charitable, think you have mistaken a genuine uncertainty about very specific issue within that arena as bigotry towards that group in general. I invite you to move beyond the comfortable black and white of the "us vs them" mentality and acknowledge the nuance of experience and thought which allows people to share values while not agreeing on everything. Even more than that, recognize that [i]asking a question[/i] is not a declaration of a definitive opinion. If one develops the habit of responding to earnest questions with sword drawn then we'll never accomplish more than further division.
@Pikachu Once they stop taking them. Also, keep in mind that puberty blockers have been used on kids for decades for non-trans reasons. We know they're safe and reversible.
I'm curious: Have you informed yourself at all about the controversy, the actual statistics and what takes place in gender reassignment ...or did you pretty much shut your brain off at "guys is guys and girls is girls!"?
@Bear513 You tried the whole biology insult below and I showed a science link to prove you're wrong. Give it a rest, why you so bent on being ignorant. You shouldn't WANT to be ignorant.
I believe there should be a transition period with the hormone therapies, as they do significantly change your body even post puberty. How long is more for scientists and health experts. But after some amount of time on the changed hormones, the advantages start vanishing. At that point, I think it should be okay. I do understand that transitioning people start with an advantage. But if they are honestly transitioning, it does go away over time.
Well i don't know how many trans women are competing in high level sports overall. I could be wrong in my perception. I admit that i haven't investigated the numbers on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2015/jun/14/laverne-cox-orange-new-black-transgender
